Missing the point of "religion"

It's amazing to think about. I used to be so bought into the idea of religion and things associated with it. I used to rise to the defense of Christianity so quickly. I still have a spiritual side, I'm not necessarily atheist, or a non-believer, but rather, I think of myself as an open-minded skeptic.

I've spent the last few years, and more intensively, the last several months really developing my skills in neuro-linguistic programming, hypnosis, subliminal influence and persuasion and social dynamics, social engineering, etc. And holy shit... I had a rude awakening.

Psychics, mind readers, magicians... I can do all of that stuff with great ease. I can do it with the same effect as these "experts" with tv shows. I can make you atheists and non-believers into the most devout Christians or whatever religion... And that's my point.

I know many of you have long since arrived to this concept, but I have just realized that religion is a mind-washing devise used for nothing more than people control. It's people control. Don't get me wrong- I have no problem with faith. Faith in something higher, in my opinion is a beautiful thing.

My problem is when people use their faith to justify the institution of certain ridiculous doctrines which are then used to justify judging and harming others. Fuck that fucked up system.

It really really scares me. It really does. I don't know what's real anymore. I can make you believe I am reading your mind, when really, all I'm doing is inserting something specific into your mind, and using some very very advanced mentalism tactics to give the impression that I'm reading minds.

I've gotten so good at this stuff, I can even conversationally hypnotize someone into believing that I have telekinetic powers, and make them appear to physically see with their eyes that I am moving something, when in fact, I am not.

In learning all of these psychological manipulation techniques, I have slowly lost almost all faith in any religion based ideology. And I feel as though I've been liberated from the circle of poisonous people control. Granted, don't get me wrong, religions all have many great things about them, helping people to live good lives and do good things in the world.

What bothers me is that people ignore those parts. Doing things like banning gay marriage, because marriage is a "holy institution between man and woman." Yeah, fuck that. In my opinion. Justifies starting wars, and blowing yourself and innocent dozens of others for Allah, or what have you. Maybe I'm taking this further than necessary, but it's insane.

The "presence of god" you feel... I can make you feel that using only words, and in turn, make you believe that you are having a religious experience. Don't believe me? Watch Derren Brown do it on youtube. I've done it before too.

My point is, the real purpose for religion is mass control. But the real purpose it SHOULD be is to just be kind. Be good people. There's so much hate and ignorance and stupidity in the world. And ironically, it's BECAUSE of fucking religion, and that's exactly what the supposed "concept" of religion is supposed to be AGAINST!!! So fuck! Does anyone else notice this? I feel like I'm crazy! Christianity in itself is fucking blasphemy- the religion, not the faith.

I have no issue with faith. It's the stupid fucking rules and doctrines and enablers for haters, and LIES and REWRITES that are all in the "holy book" which was "written by god." Bull fucking shit. It's all lies. If you believe in god, then believe in god! And let everyone else believe in what they believe in! If you're an atheist, COOL! If you're agnostic, COOL! Who cares? Why should you all give a fuck what anyone else is? The point of your religion is to LOVE. LOVE LOVE LOVE.

And arguing with people who don't agree with you is a big fucking pile of hypocritical nonsense. If you REALLY believe in karmic laws of the universe as I do, respect one another! We spend so much fucking time arguing about shit, and who the fuck cares? Get over yourselves. Everyone. Including me at times. I will take my own advice. I don't understand people who believe in nothing at all. But I respect those people. They are humans with beautiful minds and the potential to do anything!

I don't think I believe in god, or a lot of other things anymore, but I still respect the people who do. I just wish everyone could share their beliefs/non-beliefs with everyone without having to worry about how the next ignorant fuck will react to them. I wish gays (gayness being another concept I will never understand, but am completely supportive of) could get married and be happy (or completely miserable) like everyone else! Religion was supposed to be about spreading POSITIVITY and LOVE throughout the world. And what the fuck happened? Some of the most despicable, hateful, terrible people in the world call themselves fucking Christians.

At the same time If you're atheist, and someone is Christian, why should their faith offend you? What gives you the right to insult their belief in something just because it's not your belief? Who are you that you should be so arrogant? Who knows YOUR name?

If you're Christian, and you're talking to an atheist, what gives you the right to insult their intelligence, and judge and condemn them, when not only does that go against what YOUR BIBLE says, but it is also irrelevant, as their beliefs or lack thereof have NOTHING to do with YOU!!! So shut up, and be a good soldier of god. Spread love. Which is ironic, because at this moment in time, I'm frustrated and thus spreading frustration. Just stop hatin' and start love. There's NO legitimate reason to not be kind to one another. Rather, there's no legitimate reason to hate someone for nothing more than what they believe in. That's largely why the world is as fucked up (in retrospect) as it is today.

Anyway, I'll shut up now.

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Psychics, mind readers, magicians... I can do all of that stuff with great ease. I can do it with the same effect as these "experts" with tv shows. I can make you atheists and non-believers into the most devout Christians or whatever religion... And that's my point.

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No you can't. At least not those of us who have an deeply rooted tendency to remind ourselves to think objectively always.

Okay, there's this cool thing called the "big picture," otherwise known as ... the "point" of what I was saying. Which is that I can give the illusion of being some sort of super natural, psychic profit of god or something, when really I'm just hacking your brain. So I guess that's my fault for phrasing it badly.

And even outside of my point, to be frank, yes, I can. I don't spew shit about things I can't do and just say I can so I can seem "cool" in front of a bunch of random strangers from the internet who are evidently completely ignorant to concepts of psychological brainwashing- NLP covert/conversational/black ops hypnosis, etc. ANYONE can be convinced of absolutely anything, I promise you. I'd be happy to explain to you in a friendly chat that is somewhere other than this thread (for the purposes of... you know.. staying on topic) exactly how it's done, if you really were inquiring, and not being arrogant by trying to tell me what I cannot do when I've done it twice (in which case I apologize for being condescending.)

Like I said, perhaps I just phrased it badly. "I can make any non-believer believe, at least for a short period of time." I didn't mean that you'd become a continuously ongoing practicing religious nutjob. But I can make your skepticism disappear for as long as I'm around you, and it will have nothing to do with cool effects or anything. Nope. Just re-coding some software in your mind. That's pretty much all it would take for you, or anyone else. Has nothing to do with intelligence, it has to do with how the human mind and brain work.

In any case, I reiterate to you that that little detail is not the point of what I was saying. Ironically, I'm siding with skeptics (I'm assuming you're one of them) in this particular "excerpt" from my post, by explaining that all these mystical concepts believers hold so dearly to themselves can all be fabricated using science, and made to look completely believable.

Which is eye opening, and really makes you really become critical of everything around you. At least that's what happened to me.

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Originally Posted by Rainman

Psychics, mind readers, magicians... I can do all of that stuff with great ease. I can do it with the same effect as these "experts" with tv shows. I can make you atheists and non-believers into the most devout Christians or whatever religion... And that's my point.
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Originally Posted by Rainman

I don't spew shit about things I can't do and just say I can so I can seem "cool" in front of a bunch of random strangers from the internet who are evidently completely ignorant to concepts of psychological brainwashing- NLP covert/conversational/black ops hypnosis, etc. ANYONE can be convinced of absolutely anything, I promise you.

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Just because somebody else had a weak mind which submits to other people's will doesn't mean I do. I disagree with you. Unless given substances that cause serious delusions and avert one from reality, you cannot do that for me. You cannot program human mind. You can try to implant seeds there which may or may not grow into certain outcomes. Like you told in your examples, you can make people think something. You can delude them to think that you can read their minds. That works for some people, but I regard them simply ( and maybe quite rudely) as weak minded. You could never make me a Christian. Before you cut in, I have also some knowledge from the previously mentioned things.

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Originally Posted by Rainman

At the same time If you're atheist, and someone is Christian, why should their faith offend you? What gives you the right to insult their belief in something just because it's not your belief? Who are you that you should be so arrogant? Who knows YOUR name?

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People are free to do whatever they please. However, for me faith and beliefs are worst things that exist in this world. They are reason for all that is sick and twisted. I have told this in many threads and I don't want to start long ramble of it now here. But it is pretty much all you have come up with this thread of yours and some more.

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Originally Posted by Rainman

If you're Christian, and you're talking to an atheist, what gives you the right to insult their intelligence, and judge and condemn them, when not only does that go against what YOUR BIBLE says, but it is also irrelevant, as their beliefs or lack thereof have NOTHING to do with YOU!!! So shut up, and be a good soldier of god. Spread love. Which is ironic, because at this moment in time, I'm frustrated and thus spreading frustration. Just stop hatin' and start love. There's NO legitimate reason to not be kind to one another. Rather, there's no legitimate reason to hate someone for nothing more than what they believe in. That's largely why the world is as fucked up (in retrospect) as it is today.

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This is why it is best for all to keep their ideals and beliefs on their own head and not spread them further. It is polite. Everyone is free to do whatever they please, believe or not to believe. But if someone even tries to take a higher moral ground by justificating his actions via religion or ideals. Off his head. There is no such thing as justification. There is no granted right. No righteous vengeance. Nothing. We are all only humans. Nobody can say that he has right to do something. The truth is, as you too said, there is no legimate reason. People can hate each other, they can kill each other if they are able. But nothing is legimate or justified.

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Originally Posted by Rainman

In learning all of these psychological manipulation techniques, I have slowly lost almost all faith in any religion based ideology. And I feel as though I've been liberated from the circle of poisonous people control. Granted, don't get me wrong, religions all have many great things about them, helping people to live good lives and do good things in the world.

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An average intelligent adult doesn't even that information to understand that concept of religion is twisted to begin with. It has always existed to control people. You can do "good" to people without a holy shroud on your shoulders.One hand to give alms to the poor and other one to hold the sword that cuts down the infidels. Basic religion style.

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Originally Posted by Rainman

... can all be fabricated using science, and made to look completely believable.

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This is why you should never believe. People who fall into believing things they don't understand. They suffer. Don't believe. No need to live under an illusion

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Originally Posted by Unelias

Just because somebody else had a weak mind which submits to other people's will doesn't mean I do. I disagree with you. Unless given substances that cause serious delusions and avert one from reality, you cannot do that for me. You cannot program human mind. You can try to implant seeds there which may or may not grow into certain outcomes. Like you told in your examples, you can make people think something. You can delude them to think that you can read their minds. That works for some people, but I regard them simply ( and maybe quite rudely) as weak minded. You could never make me a Christian. Before you cut in, I have also some knowledge from the previously mentioned things.

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Not true. It is entirely possible to program the human mind. I do it daily. Again, it has nothing to do with "convincing" by way of demonstration. That's just entertainment as far as I'm concern. Using words and completely harmless physical touch, among other things that would not cause you any harm or danger or anything, I guarantee you this could be done. I understand, people get all defensive with me because they are so certain that they are not one of these people.

It's not submitting to someone's will. At least not intentionally. And please don't make the mistake of saying that those people are weak-minded. Almost every practitioner of any form of psychoanalysis or therapy of any kind will tell you that people who are suggestible, if anything, are STRONGER minded, as suggestibility is largely a function of there being a lack of the conscious critical factor which actually impedes the use of your higher learning state of brainwave activity, (the alpha state- yes I admit that this is still contraversial) and thus those who are less suggestible, are also far less likely to mentally advance.

I was a naysayer, until it was done to me, so rather than bash it down and get defensive while knowing nothing about how it works, I decided to try and disprove the concepts by learning it myself, and I was completely wrong. Obviously I don't know you, but unless you've spent years studying and mastering this stuff like myself and many others have, it works on you too. It has nothing to do with your ability as a person or your intelligence or anything like that. It's like saying "well MY computer can't be hacked." yes, it can. Any computer can. It always depends on the skill of the hacker. Your brain is a computer. Just like computers, it has holes in it's coding that can be exploited to achieve objectives. I promise. I will be happy to explain how it works, but I will be writing for literally days if I do that now. I really am not dodging, send me a pm if you're curious.

As for your other points,

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Originally Posted by Unelias

People are free to do whatever they please. However, for me faith and beliefs are worst things that exist in this world. They are reason for all that is sick and twisted. I have told this in many threads and I don't want to start long ramble of it now here. But it is pretty much all you have come up with this thread of yours and some more.

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And I still truly stand by that. To me, religion is one of the worst things in the world, but in my opinion, faith is different from that.

To me faith is believing in something more, and choosing to engage in that. It gives a lot of people hope, whether false or not, and not all who have faith in something (and I'd say not even the majority) are the causes of terrible things in the world. Religion is responsible for much more of that. For example, I believe in reincarnation. I believe that I'll die, and eventually come back. Does the belief harm anyone?

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Originally Posted by Unelias

An average intelligent adult doesn't even that information to understand that concept of religion is twisted to begin with. It has always existed to control people. You can do "good" to people without a holy shroud on your shoulders.One hand to give alms to the poor and other one to hold the sword that cuts down the infidels. Basic religion style

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You're exactly right on this one, I think, with one exception- It does take this knowledge for many people to understand that religion is nothing more than people control! Most people are too BRAINWASHED to realize what's going on! That's my point. They are inducted into at birth, and never know any other reality. That's the problem right now.

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Originally Posted by Unelias

There is no granted right. No righteous vengeance. Nothing. We are all only humans. Nobody can say that he has right to do something. The truth is, as you too said, there is no legimate reason. People can hate each other, they can kill each other if they are able. But nothing is legimate or justified.

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Yes, I have to agree with you there. What's unfortunate is, that not so many people realize that the actions they choose to make aren't all righteous just because their precious god "wills it." Idunno. I can't stand it. It's almost as evil as the US monitary system, but I won't start here. ;)

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Originally Posted by Unelias

This is why you should never believe. People who fall into believing things they don't understand. They suffer. Don't believe. No need to live under an illusion

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But some people NEED an illusion. Shit, I sure could use one. I'd almost rather be a moron and completely content with that, then be able to know how shitty the world has gone, and how many idiots there are, and how seemingly few "awake" people there are out there.

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Originally Posted by Unelias

This is why you should never believe

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Nah. If we don't believe, then we will become like the unstable psychotic people who believe nothing.

I am a Christian, and believe that the Bible is 100% correct. But even if it weren't true, I would much rather be stable in false beliefs than living unstable, always searching for what's real. Never actually believing anything.

If you believe in something, then you are on the same boat as everybody who believes anything. If you believe in nothing, then anything is a possibility.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

Nah. If we don't believe, then we will become like the unstable psychotic people who believe nothing.

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Better that than deluded believer who will commit things in holy smokes. Tap on your back Noogah, not all are strong enough to cope life without extraordinary beliefs. Carry on.

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I am a Christian, and believe that the Bible is 100% correct. But even if it weren't true, I would much rather be stable in false beliefs than living unstable, always searching for what's real. Never actually believing anything.

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For me truth is something that could give some meaning to life. I don't want to live in falsehood and illusions. Of course, many do. Many like easy things. Like letting somebody else think for their behalf. It is a great feat to walk amids chaos and survive. I cannot stand if things get too organized, because it enables world to start rust in it's place and create yet again ridicilous standards and traditions. Soon we are burning witches and raping virgins at the marketplace again. How do you think unless you think differently? Are you actually thinking at all? The same old verse...

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If you believe in something, then you are on the same boat as everybody who believes anything. If you believe in nothing, then anything is a possibility.

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Which quite accurately is the case. Because of your beliefs, truth can never be found, unless you are really ready to discard those beliefs. Only a madman clings on something that gets proved false.An open mind and skepticism are a good couple.

And now to the real subject.

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Not true. It is entirely possible to program the human mind. I do it daily. Again, it has nothing to do with "convincing" by way of demonstration. That's just entertainment as far as I'm concern. Using words and completely harmless physical touch, among other things that would not cause you any harm or danger or anything, I guarantee you this could be done. I understand, people get all defensive with me because they are so certain that they are not one of these people.

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No matter how much you can "program" human mind with suggestions, they are still that : suggestions. Since we are humans any outcome is possible. Nobody can totally control another human. It is very natural to be defensive, since I do not believe in such things. If I did, it might even work. Would be a nice challenge too. I'd be ready to pay a lot for a man who succeeded, with no other means than his very own personality, make me a devoit Christian. That however won't happen and I can keep my money. There is no bait, no strings, no reason for me to convert. Thus there is no temptation, no feelings. Just logical mind behind it. Human manipulation is based on emotions.

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It's not submitting to someone's will. At least not intentionally. And please don't make the mistake of saying that those people are weak-minded. Almost every practitioner of any form of psychoanalysis or therapy of any kind will tell you that people who are suggestible, if anything, are STRONGER minded, as suggestibility is largely a function of there being a lack of the conscious critical factor which actually impedes the use of your higher learning state of brainwave activity, (the alpha state- yes I admit that this is still contraversial) and thus those who are less suggestible, are also far less likely to mentally advance.

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Interesting idea. Does it hold? Yet again, willpower and intelligence are two very different factors. I'd like to see a proper study conducted with carefully planned test. Maybe it would get a bit more reliable theory.

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I don't know you, but unless you've spent years studying mastering this stuff like myself and many others have, it works on you too. It has nothing to do with your ability as a person or your intelligence or anything like that.

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I have spend my whole life mastering myself.

I have had my share of all kind of mental activities. Yet again I am not leaning to my intelligence. I think of myself fairly intelligent, able to master many things. Yet, what separates me from other people near me is more of my willpower. I am ,among other things, very hard core martial artist and I am accustomed of whipping my body and mind to their borders and beyond. On top of that I have a fair amount of basic Finnish nature, which helps me a lot in cases requiring willpower. I have also more things which are closely knitted into psychology, but maybe more of them later or in private.

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To me faith is believing in something more, and choosing to engage in that. It gives a lot of people hope, whether false or not, and not all who have faith in something (and I'd say not even the majority) are the causes of terrible things in the world. Religion is responsible for much more of that. For example, I believe in reincarnation. I believe that I'll die, and eventually come back. Does the belief harm anyone?

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Why to believe something more? Cannot stand reality? Yes, it gives hope. Hope is also very human kind of emotion, which like many other emotions can cause disasters or benefit. Still the basis of faith is very hazardous. Faith is defined as a strong belief of something that cannot be proved. If it can, then it is a fact. What happens if you believe something to be true, which you have no evidence. It has ingredients for all kind of interesting things, holocaust or holy wars for instance. It is true that organized religion is the root of all nasty crap, but faith, as a concept is as bad too. Personally, if it were even closely possible I wouldn't mind if people believed whatever they did. If only they kept it inside their heads and stopped using their beliefs as justification or tool. Now, if you carefully think this thing, you'll know the answer for your own question. Does the belief harm anyone? Maybe it wouldn't but since we are humans we cannot keep it inside us.

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But some people NEED an illusion. Shit, I sure could use one. I'd almost rather be a moron and completely content with that, then be able to know how shitty the world has gone, and how many idiots there are, and how seemingly few "awake" people there are out there.

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Nobody really needs it. They crave it, they want it, they want an easier life. But to need? No. I'd rather ate my heart than live like that. For me, harder way is almost every time more favorable. I don't want to live ignorant, because it makes me vulnerable to the very same factors I detest i.e in faith.

But yeh, got me interested, which is good thing. I like interesting things. If you have patience we can work this through since I won't be much near my computer for next month.

-Un

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Originally Posted by Noogah

Nah. If we don't believe, then we will become like the unstable psychotic people who believe nothing.

I am a Christian, and believe that the Bible is 100% correct. But even if it weren't true, I would much rather be stable in false beliefs than living unstable, always searching for what's real. Never actually believing anything.

If you believe in something, then you are on the same boat as everybody who believes anything. If you believe in nothing, then anything is a possibility.

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Ignorance is bliss huh?

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Originally Posted by Noogah

Nah. If we don't believe, then we will become like the unstable psychotic people who believe nothing.

I am a Christian, and believe that the Bible is 100% correct. But even if it weren't true, I would much rather be stable in false beliefs than living unstable, always searching for what's real. Never actually believing anything.

If you believe in something, then you are on the same boat as everybody who believes anything. If you believe in nothing, then anything is a possibility.

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One does not live unstably if one does not belief. Rather, you live unstably because you are unstable, which isn't true. You might think you are stable because you are in the same boat as everybody else, but that is because of you are stricken with fear and insecurity. You are in the same time locked down by the belief, hold tight by others so you don't get free. So you can share the delusion together and keep the status quo. If what you call "stable" is just being static, that in itself would be pointless. There is almost no room for growth, being static is not the purpose, but to evolve is. Why not always search for what's real? Why keep yourself limited by fear, belief an dogma? By going your own path you will with no doubt find big truth, and keep expanding the big picture one has. You are saying it yourself, right there in your own words. "If you believe in nothing, then anything is a possibility." That is true, in the most real sense, anything is possible without belief. By having no belief, one is open to all possibilities, and by that one will see the greater reality, which reaches beyond anything ever conceptualised by any religion. Your words and thoughts, you have just stated hold a lot of truth to them, but they are ignored by the same person, as they miss your reality tunnel. Give your thoughts a new and more fruitful meaning, as you view them in an another light. By using your free-will with a positive intent you progress through the evolution we all do on our shared journey.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Whoa...you say one little thing, and look what you get.

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Whoa...you say one little thing, and look what you get.

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This board is for discussion :P I don't see what the problem is. And i'd say that your statements in that post is of importance ^^

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Originally Posted by Noogah

Whoa...you say one little thing, and look what you get.

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Little thing is enough, especially when it is large as a mountain in its ignorance. It's pretty much like Kant said. You are bound to your freedom. We make choices, some make bad choices for themselves, some make better. Good if you feel like being in the same boat with others, it is very inherent for humans.

Too bad that boat named Religion has Titanic painted all over its side.

Unelias, I would be interested in getting more of your perspective on this issue. Unfortunately, I fear soon this thread will get subject-raped and soon be just another stupid debate on what's "real" and what "isn't real" instead of the purpose I wrote this for- to get people on both ends to stop acting like douchebags.

I think it's awsome that you're highly trained in martial arts. That would be a factor I never considered, and really don't know how it would go, because I am completely ignorant about the mental and physical discipline that that requires. Either way, if you'll please note, I did correct myself- because I didn't realize that particular sentence would be scruitinized so heavily (because it has...nothing.. to do with my central idea), I clarified what I meant in an earlier post.

I know that I can't obviously convert you to Christianity and make you be a devoit Christian. What I can do is give the illusion of the feeling of the "presence of god" or whathave you, and I only do that to prove that when people are feeling the "presence of the holy spirit" they are feeling nothing more than electrical impulses that stimulate certain parts of their body and mind, and that can be completely recreated in its full intensity at anytime by anyone who even remotely knows what they're doing.

That's all I'm saying. I assumed you were getting defensive because, well frankly, most people do when they feel like they're being told they aren't in control. Also, suggestions... yes, that's part of what is used. Suggestions by themselves wouldn't work. The way I hypnotize, the person doesn't know, and never finds out what I'm doing. They just think they came up with ideas on their own accord. If you live in America, and English is your primary language, I guarantee you these things have affected you in some way. You're right though- no human can completely control another. I don't have any reason to believe that is possible. That said, humans can MOSTLY control other humans. You said it yourself-- what's religion? media?

Anyway, back to my POINT ;):

In my opinion, faith is open-mindedness, as long as that's what it remains. For me that's true. And no, I cause you absolutely no harm by believing what I believe. And I, like many others, don't stand on what I believe in as if it's the one truth. This is the problem with words. To you, faith seems to mean something completely different from what it means to me.

You didn't answer my question though, so I'll specify it further- Does my "belief" that after I die, I will come back in a new way in any way harm you? I occasionally share my thoughts on things like that with others. I do not impose them upon people, nor would I ever be as arrogant as to say "this is the way it happens and there's no alternative," because you are absolutely right. People like that will never know truth. I may, because in my opinion, being willing to understand science as fact, and yet be willing to accept that there is a lot of shit we can't even begin to understand, and not be so arrogant as to believe that we already know absolutely everything, and thus, everything that is not backed by science is bullshit.

It's just not true. The "if you can't prove it, then it doesn't exist" mentality, is just as arrogant, close-minded, and frankly, just plain unfortunate of a mindset as the hardcore believers who pick an ideology, say "this is the only way, and everyone else is dumb, because it's OBVIOUS that (blah blah blah)." It's just as arrogant. The only difference is, at least the non-believer has SOME basis for spewing his bullshit. But like I always say, science can prove what there is, but not what there isn't. To me, you are not open-minded until you are willing to accept things from both ends.

Now, I already know what you'll likely say next, so I will say it for you. I too believe things when I see evidence of them. Most people who are non-believers (what a generic term- non believers in what?) are the same way. I admit, that I don't need science to prove all things, as you perhaps might.

But that's my point. I am willing to be open to the possibility of things that seem reasonable to me based on a combination of personal experience, and scientific aspects that we don't fully understand, without needing concrete scientific evidence. To me, that is open-mindedness. My point is, regardless of what you believe, and what I believe, we all should respect one another.

Otherwise, you're generalizing. "All believers are idiots who create problems in the world." yes, I'm aware that none of you said that, but there are people who do. Hell, there are people in this forum, who say things like that. It's ignorant. Where's the "science" to back that up? Because of course, you realize, that general statements like that, even excluding the word "all" is technically, by definition, a belief, and thus the utterer of that statement is not only a moron, but a hypocrite. Get my drift?

Just be nice to one another. Despite what you might think, my thoughts and beliefs and ideas have nothing to do with you. They will never cause you any harm or danger. So don't bash me for what I choose to think about. You are entitled to your own beliefs and opinons and thoughts and theories, which I may or may not agree with, but I don't DISRESPECT you for them.

Otherwise, you're generalizing, which is the same ignorant shit that racists, sexists, and homophobics are guilty of. (by the way, I'm not saying YOU responders of this thread are that way, I'm just using the word "you" to be emphatic. You're actually all pretty cool about this best I can tell.)

So anyway, that's the point of this thread. To try to get people to stop bashing people. I don't agree with most scientologists. I don't agree with most Christians/Catholics whatever. I think it's all rubbish. But my best friend is a completely devout Catholic, and I have no problem with that. We never argue, we occasionally jest, but when we do debate, it's always very neutral. Neither of us get hard feelings about it. He shares his perspective with me, I share mine with him, I share why I agree or disagree and he does the same.

There's no need for all of the hostility that a lot of people throw on each other. All it does is add hate to the world. Some of the greatest people in the world were religious and chose to do beautiful things with it. There are goods and evils of every aspect of faith, including the non-believers, (though in my experience, the non-believers tend to be less radical.) Mother Theresa is an obvious example, but there are people all over the world who do that same thing. And yes, while doing so, many of those groups preach about the "word of god." But those people who do beautiful things for people, and commit random acts of kindness tend to go unnoticed by non-believers.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel as though non-believers (i'm just going to continue using that term for the purposes of this post. Sorry if it seems general) try to convince themselves that people who believe in something are somehow evil just because they have a different point of view that you think is inferior. So you (again, not literally YOU people here-- just in general 'people') try to justify your rudeness and blatent and outward detest of these people and their beliefs by convincing yourself that they're evil, when in fact, there is almost no basis for that.

You're all about proving things, right? So how can one have such a simplistic view of such an insanely large group of people?

Of course religion is nothing but brainwashing. Like George Carlin said: "God is all powerful, all perfect, all knowing and all wise, somehow just can't handle MONEY! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay NO taxes, and they always need a little more."

I was very frustrated and angry once I've opened my eyes. Thankfully, I managed to liberate myself from those feelings and now I simply enjoy my life. I don't care who is brainwashed with what, people are no victims! They have every ability in every moment to start seeking the truth. If they want to open their eyes, they must first remove their firmly attached hands off of them.

But, then again, we are all constantly brainwashed. Every single man - made thing you observe, ideology you accept, has money in its existential foundations.

So now what? Go paranoid and hate life?? No. The opposite. Become aware of your abilities and LOVE life. >> yeah, yeah, getting to what you want to hear.... >> Love every being and let them live as well! We are all on a same path to happiness. I respect everyone, every opinion, even if I fully disagree; I can debate you forever if you want, standing still and calm, knowing I'm actually learning something about myself as well.

Ego is the bitch in the whole hating story.
Once people become aware of their egoistic thoughts and actions and take distance from it, they will no longer feel the urge for proving things to others, they will no longer get violently defensive, they will do no harm any more.

And as for your hmm hobby, I find that very very very interesting, cause I have always been in love in psychology and exploring human subconscious. I would really appreciate if you could find the time to pm me and tell me a bit more about it.

:)

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Originally Posted by Luanne

Of course religion is nothing but brainwashing. Like George Carlin said: "God is all powerful, all perfect, all knowing and all wise, somehow just can't handle MONEY! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay NO taxes, and they always need a little more."

I was very frustrated and angry once I've opened my eyes. Thankfully, I managed to liberate myself from those feelings and now I simply enjoy my life. I don't care who is brainwashed with what, people are no victims! They have every ability in every moment to start seeking the truth. If they want to open their eyes, they must first remove their firmly attached hands off of them.

But, then again, we are all constantly brainwashed. Every single man - made thing you observe, ideology you accept, has money in its existential foundations.

So now what? Go paranoid and hate life?? No. The opposite. Become aware of your abilities and LOVE life. >> yeah, yeah, getting to what you want to hear.... >> Love every being and let them live as well! We are all on a same path to happiness. I respect everyone, every opinion, even if I fully disagree; I can debate you forever if you want, standing still and calm, knowing I'm actually learning something about myself as well.

Ego is the bitch in the whole hating story.
Once people become aware of their egoistic thoughts and actions and take distance from it, they will no longer feel the urge for proving things to others, they will no longer get violently defensive, they will do no harm any more.

And as for your hmm hobby, I find that very very very interesting, cause I have always been in love in psychology and exploring human subconscious. I would really appreciate if you could find the time to pm me and tell me a bit more about it.

:)

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Why have I not added you to my buddies list yet? *adds to buddies list*

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Why have I not added you to my buddies list yet? *adds to buddies list*

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:hug:

You see, Rainman, how your thread about respect actually brings people closer? :)

Well, ultimately, though I am most certainly not by any means liberated from egoistic tendancies, and occasionally spiral into my pit of being condescending and defensive, believe it or not, I try my very best every day to do just that. So...

Thanks ;)

Fortunately in this day and age, I think more and more people are starting to wake up about things, and by the sounds of it, you're pretty far along too. My problem comes from the fact that I recognize some of these ideas, and have a hard time living them through myself. But I try!

And I'm glad you understand my point. It's not about WHAT you believe. :) There are some people who believe that there are reptile people trying to take over the world. I think that's ridiculous. But hey. Never know.. :o

How to brainwash someone:

1. Either find them or put them in a position where they are extremely mentally/emotionally/physically vulnerable.

2. Abuse the hell out of them further.

3. Pump them full of as much bullshit as you like.


Not really that hard, and it's not exactly magic. If you find someone who is vulnerable, it's not exactly hard to do any of this intuitively, especially if you feel no compassion for them or don't see them as human beings. This is not mant to be accusatory to the OP; I have no way of knowing that, but I just want to point out that even if the OP is in some way delusional about being able to control people's minds, if the OP has ever practiced it (whether or not it actually worked at all, or by what means it worked) really says something about their moral standards and how they see other people.

Rainman, if you feel so violated by what religion has done to you, why on Earth would you EVER attempt to do the same things to your fellow man? How do you justify/rationalize that? Why would you violate someone else like that?

Or have you never attempted those things at all, and just read about them?

http://www.cultwatch.com/mctb.html

http://www.howcultswork.com/

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If you REALLY believe in karmic laws of the universe as I do, respect one another! We spend so much fucking time arguing about shit, and who the fuck cares? Get over yourselves. Everyone. Including me at times. I will take my own advice. I don't understand people who believe in nothing at all. But I respect those people. They are humans with beautiful minds and the potential to do anything!

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This is good advice, and yes, you should be taking it too. If you've ever done any of that mind manipulation stuff (which may or may not work, my money's on the latter but that's my opinion), you'll never do it to anyone again.

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Originally Posted by Naiya

How to brainwash someone:

1. Either find them or put them in a position where they are extremely mentally/emotionally/physically vulnerable.

2. Abuse the hell out of them further.

3. Pump them full of as much bullshit as you like.

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Uh... yeah I guess that's one way to do it... if you're in a war? Or 50 years ago?

How about uh... television? Media? You know.. the biggest brainwashing devices of all?

Did either of those involve any sort of physical harm? No. They did not. Before you condemn me for something I'm not guilty of, please do some reading. You have just proved to me, and to everyone with any knowledge of the simplest forms of covert persuasion that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, which of course is fine, but you shouldn't be making me out to be some sort of abusive terrible person.

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Originally Posted by Naiya

Rainman, if you feel so violated by what religion has done to you, why on Earth would you EVER attempt to do the same things to your fellow man? How do you justify/rationalize that? Why would you violate someone else like that?

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Uh, I'm sorry did I miss something? Oh yeah, I missed where I said anything I do is anything similar to religious nutjobs who are guilty of racism, sexism, murder, torture, and other forms of complete bigotry. I literally have no idea what you're talking about. I'm doing the same things as those people? Where did I say that? Where did I say any of what you said? Lol... I'm literally confused.

The more times I re-read your post, the more I have to presume that you did not really read ANYTHING that I said in any of my posts. I didn't say I feel violated. I never said that. I'm pretty sure that word never even appeared in anything I've said up to now in this thread. I don't even recall saying that religion has offended me. Others have said that. To the contrary, I said people should NOT let people's beliefs offend you. Please read this again.

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Originally Posted by Naiya

This is good advice, and yes, you should be taking it too. If you've ever done any of that mind manipulation stuff (which may or may not work, my money's on the latter but that's my opinion), you'll never do it to anyone again.

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Nothing I have ever done involves harming or taking advantage of anyone. Again, please get even the slightest inkling of an idea of what you're talking about before you assume that I'm some sort of terrible person.

Contrary to what you have very wrongfully assumed, nothing that I do or have ever done involves harming or taking advantage of anyone. As a matter of fact, more often than not, I use what I know to help people. This can be interpretted how you like within the realms of ethics. Using influence and persuasion to help people have better lives, achieve their goals, and choose to be happy. Damn, I'm a terrible person.

And maybe I am. But if you've ever watched tv, read the news, listened to talk radio, YOU'RE engaging in real brainwashing, and thus should turn the finger of 'blame' upon yourself for supporting such nonsense. (That of course is an exaggeration, and completely idiotic. In case you didn't get it, that's called overemphasizing and is used to make my point.)

I didn't ever say that I fuck with people and abuse them and make them do things just for shits and giggles. The psychological technology that I use to help people can be used to harm people as well, and it is used regularly. So... anything I missed?

Pff.

It took you this long to realize that about religion?

Rainman: First of all, I like how you quoted all of my post EXCEPT for the part where it said "This is not meant to be accusatory to the OP; I have no way of knowing that, but I just want to point out that even if the OP is in some way delusional about being able to control people's minds, if the OP has ever practiced it (whether or not it actually worked at all, or by what means it worked) really says something about their moral standards and how they see other people."

lol, thanks for that, and for trying to put me on the defensive. And now I'll show you where in your posts I got the idea that you were practicing this stuff on other people:

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I've gotten so good at this stuff, I can even conversationally hypnotize someone into believing that I have telekinetic powers, and make them appear to physically see with their eyes that I am moving something, when in fact, I am not.


The "presence of god" you feel... I can make you feel that using only words, and in turn, make you believe that you are having a religious experience. Don't believe me? Watch Derren Brown do it on youtube. I've done it before too.

It is entirely possible to program the human mind. I do it daily. Again, it has nothing to do with "convincing" by way of demonstration. That's just entertainment as far as I'm concern

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but these things imply that you have been psychologically manipulating people. If you were really convincing people that you had powers or that you can make them feel God, then yes I would say that's a violation on their person. And how does convincing someone you have powers help them?

Obviously, I don't think you're using tactics like physically abusing people--sorry if it sounded that way. No, I know there are many varied forms of manipulation, but the same pattern applies to all of them. Here's an example: I was watching TV this morning, staring at the screen blankly. I have no health insurance (vulnerable to issues about it). I see an ad on TV which depicts someone dying because they didn't have health insurance (emotional abuse). The end of the ad urges me to contact my representatives to support its political agenda.

You find someone in a vulnerable state, exploit it, and then you pump them full of your bullshit. Most of the time, mind control and manipulation boils down to that pattern.

It sounds like you are arguing that as long as you are not physically abusing someone, taking their money or putting them in harm's way, it's okay to mindfuck them? I'm confused there. It's okay for you to do it, but not media, because you are manipulating people for the right reasons?

By the way, do you know the best way to stop manipulation? Cut off contact with the other side. *unsubscribes* :)

Well, since Naiya unsubscribed, there is no point in quoting. But just wanted to say, I believe she is exaggerating, (i.e. she got the wrong impression). Rainman is talking about psychology, mentalism, illusions. If you do read this, Naiya, do watch some of the Derren Brown's videos, he seems like a good guy to me. :)

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Originally Posted by Naiya

You find someone in a vulnerable state, exploit it, and then you pump them full of your bullshit. Most of the time, mind control and manipulation boils down to that pattern.

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Sigh. Don't tell me what I do and do not do. It has nothing to do with exploiting vulnerable people. Like I said, read before you make uneducated and way blown out of proportion claims that are completely untrue. NLP. Research neuro-linguistic programming. All it is is taking conceptual thoughts people have already experienced, and subconsciously asking them to experience it again, and associating that with a goal or outcome that the person doing the persuasion has in mind.

Funny part about this is, if you read...anything about this, you will inevitibly find that more often than not, NLP doesn't work when the person using it has malicious intentions, because via something called subcommunication(while you're educating yourself, you should look this one up too), the person being "controlled" picks up on the intentions of the performer, and rejects the session on either a conscious or subconscious level.

NLP requires consent on some level. Most people just aren't aware that they're giving it, which is why it works as well as it does. For me. Why? Because I don't have even the slightest mal-intent when I use it. One of the key core values of ANY nlp practitioner is "Leave every person in a better state than when you found them." Type in that quote in google and see how many NLP sites come up. Not to mention therapists of all sorts use NLP and similar tactics of "manipulation" to HELP PEOPLE. Are they evil? Are they terrible people? Psychologists, psychiatrists, hypnotherapists, NLP master practitioners, etc. Criminal interrogators use this. It's like a knife. It has a lot of positive uses. But people also use it to harm people. Media uses it. Salesman use it. marketers. Etc.

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Originally Posted by Naiya

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Originally Posted by Rainman

Again, it has nothing to do with "convincing" by way of demonstration. That's just entertainment as far as I'm concern

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Yes, that's what I said. Convincing people is just entertainment. That's not what I do. Hence why I said, "it has nothing to do with 'convincing'". Try again. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Naiya

No, I know there are many varied forms of manipulation, but the same pattern applies to all of them.

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No, that's completely untrue. Have you studied this? At all? There are many forms of manipulation, and many are completely different. Not to mention, the word "manipulation" has bad connotations behind it, when really it simply implies that you mess with something until it changes.

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Originally Posted by Naiya

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Originally Posted by Rainman

I've gotten so good at this stuff, I can even conversationally hypnotize someone into believing that I have telekinetic powers, and make them appear to physically see with their eyes that I am moving something, when in fact, I am not.

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Hmm. I don't see where I said that I do this stuff, just that I can.

But I have. I never do this stuff to strangers, only to friends who are skeptical about mind-control, brainwashing, etc. I have never done anything that I would consider to be unethical, because I always tell people exactly what I'm going to do, if it's anything other than something that will help them. If I even pretend like I can read minds (which I only do by way of language patterns and suggestion- something anyone can do), I tell people what I'm doing to do. Something like I will give you the impression that I can read your mind, or bend a spoon. Afterwards, I tell them that it's all deception. It doesn't even always work. Like I said, when it comes down to it, this stuff requires permission in order for it to work. Most people just don't know they're giving it.

Because when I do this in real-world circumstances, it's almost always in the event of trying to help people. Someone can't remember their husbands phone number to call him. I can help them to remember. Someone is having a bad day. With a 30 second conversation, I can make them feel better. Decide if you want whether that's "ethical" or not. I've decided it is, and on some deeply buried subconscious level, they have agreed to let it happen, or it wouldn't work. I repeat, it would not work. So as I mention in my original post, have your beliefs. I don't condemn you for being ignorant, I do it for being ignorant, and being arrogant enough to decide that your view is right, and throw in my face how evidently terrible of a person I am. So you, like many, have missed the point of this. What I do wouldn't work on anyone if I had intentions that would harm them. Your mind will protect itself from harm, unless there is actual BRAINWASHING involved. Brainwashing and guiding someone's thoughts are different. I'll be happy to explain how. I'm not being sarcastic, I really will if you are still unconvinced.

If you knew anything about psychology, you'd know this. Attack me after you get a clue what you're talking about. Thanks.

Isn't the point of basic religion to teach people lessons about how to live your life? I seriously doubt there's a distinction between religion, myth, and folklore unless you spin such a thing around to coerce people to do what you want them to do.

The original idea behind religion may have been to teach people how to live wholeosme lives, but with the constant evolution and "advancement" in society, it has grown to be a "justification" for all sorts of crazy things. Murder, conquests, etc. And the unfortunate part is, the people who condemn others and kill others in the name of religion truly BELIEVE that what they're doing is right.