Thread: What evidence do you need?

Originally Posted by O'nus

This keeps coming up so I made a thread for it.

What evidence do you need to see to see that evolution is factual?

~

I would need to see some kind of breeding program that resulted in all kinds of dogs, like chihuahuas, Saint bernards, Pit Bulls, German Shepards, all from a common ancestor, like a wolf. I would need to see a breeding program for plants that would result in greater quantities of food for humans like corn, wheat, from normal grass.

If I am going to be convinced of evolution, I would need to know why some things, like many single celled organisms don't evolve at all, or stopped evolving. And things like crocodiles and sharks.

If I am going to be convinced of evolution, I would need to know why some things, like many single celled organisms don't evolve at all, or stopped evolving. And things like crocodiles and sharks.

Hahahaha.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I would need to see some kind of breeding program that resulted in all kinds of dogs, like chihuahuas, Saint bernards, Pit Bulls, German Shepards, all from a common ancestor, like a wolf.

First of all, I can show you the genetic relation of all living things.

Genetic Relations


+ "This tree is from an analysis of small subunit rRNA sequences sampled
from about 3,000 species from throughout the Tree of Life. The species were chosen based
on their availability, but we attempted to include most of the major groups, sampled
very roughly in proportion to the number of known species in each group (although many
groups remain over- or under-represented). The number of species
represented is approximately the square-root of the number of species thought to exist on Earth
(i.e., three thousand out of an estimated nine million species), or about 0.18% of the 1.7 million
species that have been formally described and named. "
+ http://www.zo.utexas.edu/faculty/ant...dfilesToL.html

Dogs Genetic Relation

"We used molecular markers to study genetic relationships in a diverse collection of 85 domestic dog breeds. Differences among breeds accounted for 30% of genetic variation. Microsatellite genotypes were used to correctly assign 99% of individual dogs to breeds. Phylogenetic analysis separated several breeds with ancient origins from the remaining breeds with modern European origins. We identified four genetic clusters, which predominantly contained breeds with similar geographic origin, morphology, or role in human activities. These results provide a genetic classification of dog breeds and will aid studies of the genetics of phenotypic breed differences."
+ http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten.../304/5674/1160

"Mitochondrial DNA control region sequences were analyzed from 162 wolves at 27 localities worldwide and from 140 domestic dogs representing 67 breeds. Sequences from both dogs and wolves showed considerable diversity and supported the hypothesis that wolves were the ancestors of dogs."
+ http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...;276/5319/1687

Genetic routes producing miniature breeds that retain the proportion of the original
+ http://www.fredlanting.org/2008/07/p...rd-dog-part-1/

Evolution of Grass

I would need to see a breeding program for plants that would result in greater quantities of food for humans like corn, wheat, from normal grass.

This is misleading. There is no such thing as wild corn as it has been biologically created by man.

"The genetic structure of 35 populations of wild relatives of cultivated wheats, all collected in Syria and Lebanon, was assessed using ten isozymes. The populations consisted of diploid goat grass, Aegilops speltoides, diploid wild wheats, Triticum monococcum spp. aegilopoides and T. urartu, and tetraploid wild wheat, T. turgidum ssp. dicoccoides. The majority of the populations were polymorphic (P=0–70%) having low within-population mean genetic diversity (Hep=0.05–0.10) and relatively high within-species genetic diversity (Hes=0.14–0.31). The linkage between loci did not seem to be one of the causes for the observed polymorphism. All four species showed significant inbreeding at both the population (0.31–0.64) and species (0.77–0.96) levels, and the extent of inbreeding did not correlate with mating systems. Despite their apparent common ecological and evolutionary history, between-population or between-species level genetic identity was low (I=0.43–0.86). Among the diploid species, populations of Ae. speltoides clustered distinctly from those overlapping clusters of T. monococcum ssp. aegilopoides and T. urartu. The tetraploid species T. turgidum ssp. dicoccoides had relatively less genetic diversity (Hes=0.14) and was highly homozygous (F=0.96). The results suggest that these wild progenitors of cultivated wheats have undergone extensive local differentiation and inbreeding. We discuss the implications of our results on the management of wild wheat and goat grass populations."
+ http://www.springerlink.com/content/q9grr1chey9bgvy1/

I will have to look further into this one as I do not often read about the evolution of... grass.

If I am going to be convinced of evolution, I would need to know why some things, like many single celled organisms don't evolve at all, or stopped evolving. And things like crocodiles and sharks.

Nothing has "stopped evolving". What are you talking about? What about crocodiles and sharks..?

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

This is misleading. There is no such thing as wild corn as it has been biologically created by man.

Nothing has "stopped evolving". What are you talking about? What about crocodiles and sharks..?

~

You didn't get it. i was being facetious. Corn was evolved by man from grass. Breeding is just sped up evolution where man has chosen the desired traits instead of chance mutations surviving by natural selection. I mean, corn was not genetically engineered, it was bred.


Well, there are simple organisms that have remained unchanged for billions of years, like diatoms, algae, sponges, amoebae, bacterias, yeasts, etc. And other things have evolved and then seemed to stop evolving like great white sharks and crocodiles which both existed before dinosaurs.

I am not arguing against evolution, I thoroughly believe in it. It is just these things are curious to me.
Can you tell me what insects and arachnids, and earthworms and milipedes etc. evolved from? In school they just said that a fish came out of the water and became an amphibian, which became reptiles, which became birds and mammals, but they left out the whole part about bugs. My feeling is that bugs came out of the water before fish did. Maybe it was a shrimp that came out of the water?
Cool information though.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

You didn't get it. i was being facetious. Corn was evolved by man from grass. Breeding is just sped up evolution where man has chosen the desired traits instead of chance mutations surviving by natural selection. I mean, corn was not genetically engineered, it was bred.


Well, there are simple organisms that have remained unchanged for billions of years, like diatoms, algae, sponges, amoebae, bacterias, yeasts, etc. And other things have evolved and then seemed to stop evolving like great white sharks and crocodiles which both existed before dinosaurs.

I am not arguing against evolution, I thoroughly believe in it. It is just these things are curious to me.
Can you tell me what insects and arachnids, and earthworms and milipedes etc. evolved from? In school they just said that a fish came out of the water and became an amphibian, which became reptiles, which became birds and mammals, but they left out the whole part about bugs. My feeling is that bugs came out of the water before fish did. Maybe it was a shrimp that came out of the water?
Cool information though.

In answer to your question about why it seems that some organisms "stop" evolving is that technically, it is a possibility. There are a set of 5 conditions that all must be true for a population to be considered static, or not evolving, called the hardy-weinberg principle. Some organisms fit the bill a lot better than others, and so don't appear to be evolving. The occasional new gene may arise, but the population is so vast or so efficient, that the new gene is snuffed out.
Also keep in mind that an organism can retain the same appearance through millions of years, but it will still be "evolving." Modern humans are evolving at the fastest rate in known history, and overall, we really haven't changed all too much in physical appearance over the Millenia.

Well, there are simple organisms that have remained unchanged for billions of years, like diatoms, algae, sponges, amoebae, bacterias, yeasts, etc. And other things have evolved and then seemed to stop evolving like great white sharks and crocodiles which both existed before dinosaurs.

The whole point of evolution by natural selection is that organisms become better adapted to their environments over time. Natural selection therefore only takes place when an organisms environment changes so that it is not optimally adapted. Those organisms you listed are extremely well adapted to their environments already, and their environments do not change; although some members of those species may have moved to other locations where they were not very well adapted, and hence evolved; in other words some yeasts have evolved - but then obviously they aren't yeasts any more.

Can someone show me what cats or dogs are going to evolve into, and when I can expect to see them? Or at least form a theory.

Also: do you think it's possible for a cat or dog to turn into like a human or somethin? Or are least human-like

Originally Posted by Tarsier

Can someone show me what cats or dogs are going to evolve into, and when I can expect to see them? Or at least form a theory.

Also: do you think it's possible for a cat or dog to turn into like a human or somethin? Or are least human-like

I don't think that a cat or a dog can turn human.
I always wondered what if an insect or a cuttlefish evolved into a very high intelligence with opposable thumbs. I also am interested in the theory that psychoactive mushrooms helped evolve humans. If so, what would happen if we fed them to gorillas. I always wished we were more like gorillas than we are to chimps. Gorillas are much more peaceful.

oops. double post

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I would need to see some kind of breeding program that resulted in all kinds of dogs, like chihuahuas, Saint bernards, Pit Bulls, German Shepards, all from a common ancestor, like a wolf. I would need to see a breeding program for plants that would result in greater quantities of food for humans like corn, wheat, from normal grass.

If I am going to be convinced of evolution, I would need to know why some things, like many single celled organisms don't evolve at all, or stopped evolving. And things like crocodiles and sharks.

You know how long it took for dogs to get to where they are from their common ancestor? Mills of years. Even with our technology today, I don't think you'll see it. And you do know that ANY dog/ wolf you can think of are all the same species? Due to humans, there are different breeds, but they can all mate with each other and produce viable offspring

When the Nat. Amer. harvested corn, corn was only about 2" long. Through selective harvesting, corn has become what we know of today. However, if left on it's own, who know's what it could've turned out to become

Bacteria, as I've said, is always evolving. Humans are evolving. Have you ever seen funature from the 1800s? The beds are only about 5'6". The average person wasn't that tall. Why do you think people though Abe Lincoln was a "giant" at 6'4". Today if you see someone that height I'm sure you'd only think, "That's a tall person." Being 6' myself, 6'4" isn't that much taller than me

Crocs and sharks... don't know what you mean by that, so here're some Wikis

Ancient croc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinosuchus

Shark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalodon

As you can see, some species have lived for many millions of years before the species dies out (and a new species is discovered which leads to the theory of evolution. One species dies out but a similar one takes it's place)

It takes millions of years to evolve. Generations of scientists would have to work to "watch" a species evolve. Humans have only been of the Genus Homo for 2.5mill yrs. As a whole, we split occured about 5mill yrs ago, so it's thought

The problem I have is because it's so slow at which point is it one or the other?

Take this gradiant as an example of evolution. Red is on the left, yellow on the right. At one point is it a different color?

......v--red.............................................ye llow--v

.........................red---^.............^--yellow

What's the middle though? Red? Yellow? Or should we just call the middle ground orange? But again, at what point is the red ACTUALLY orange? Some people may see it differently. I think that there may be something out there that isn't quite one or the other, so it become classified as something else. Maybe is just for the ease of science. If it looks more like one than the other, then put it with the one

I hope that makes sense