Thread: 10 Questions for an Intelligent Christian

Originally Posted by ninja pirate

Are your parents responsible for your actions?

On some level, yes. But I take responsibility for my actions. One thing though... Parents, teachers, leaders - they aren't gods. All are connected and, relatively, on the same level. The omnipotent nature of God is what makes him responsible for the universe. Unless he made us gods as well?

Originally Posted by ninja pirate

If you were a perfect being, perhaps the most humble decision you could make would be to create others to enjoy your presence.

Yet those you created to enjoy your benevolence have abused their freedom to create anti-benevolence.
How would you feel?

If you really want my opinion, I would actually blame myself. Not those who never decided to exist at all. I/God made the original decision... I'm not even going to start with the fact that I knew what would have happened.

Originally Posted by ninja pirate

We are given the choice to love God or not. This is what makes love authentic. Would you program your child to love you before he/she is born? Would your child really love you or would he/she be robotic?

Authentic love comes from individual choice.

Here comes the problem, since I can't really discuss this. I don't believe in this transcendental soul with free will/choice. So I believe that all love is actually programmed. Even if there is free will, for me, that doesn't excuse an infinitely powerful being for its finite actions.

Originally Posted by ninja pirate

God's suffering extends beyond the cross; His spiritual suffering exists on the basis of the above analysis.

Entrance to spiritual hell, whatever it may be, is human choice. Again, this is another root to God's suffering. How would you feel if your child was sentenced to prison?

If I try and adopt such a world view for a second... I can't change the person, but I can save him by revealing myself (unambiguously). If belief in Jesus is what saves people from hell, then why doesn't he reveal himself. This is one of the most common questions, but I never got (or comprehended) the answer. If he loves us so much that he suffered on the cross, then he should also love us enough to suffer some more and send all those destined for hell to heaven.

Originally Posted by ninja pirate

Your intelligence is what enables you.

Yes, I know. We can all make choices and become Christian. But answer this. If I came to you with a belief system, basically identical to yours, but different. If I told you that you won't get to heaven because you choose hell. How would you feel? You wouldn't care, you already have your own thing going on and you wouldn't act against your faith. That's the point where you or I are unable to listen/make choices who to listen to. The fact that you or I wouldn't act against our beliefs is what makes us incapable of "choice". And thus shouldn't be judged.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

On some level, yes. But I take responsibility for my actions. One thing though... Parents, teachers, leaders - they aren't gods. All are connected and, relatively, on the same level. The omnipotent nature of God is what makes him responsible for the universe. Unless he made us gods as well?

God is responsible for creating the universe and for granting us free will. Given that we have free will, we are responsible for using it as we see fit.

Let me repeat this--God is responsible for giving us freedom to make choices; our choices are our own and we hold responsibility for them. I have nothing further to say in this regard.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

If you really want my opinion, I would actually blame myself. Not those who never decided to exist at all. I/God made the original decision... I'm not even going to start with the fact that I knew what would have happened.

You know that if you decide eventually to have children that those children will grow up to make their own choices. You are well aware that they may and probably will make the wrong choices from time to time. Is this a reason not to have children at all?

Would you blame yourself for their choices?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Here comes the problem, since I can't really discuss this. I don't believe in this transcendental soul with free will/choice. So I believe that all love is actually programmed. Even if there is free will, for me, that doesn't excuse an infinitely powerful being for its finite actions.

If you believe there is no free choice, and therefore that emotions like love are programmed, then you have to surrender all freedom of thought whatsoever.

If you do not have freedom of thought, your entire philosophy on this forum falls apart (as you are simply programmed to hold that philosophy). Do you really believe we do not have free will?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

If I try and adopt such a world view for a second... I can't change the person, but I can save him by revealing myself (unambiguously). If belief in Jesus is what saves people from hell, then why doesn't he reveal himself. This is one of the most common questions, but I never got (or comprehended) the answer. If he loves us so much that he suffered on the cross, then he should also love us enough to suffer some more and send all those destined for hell to heaven.

God will reveal Himself when you seek Him with all your heart. You have been told He loves you unconditionally and that is all the revelation you need. The next move is yours.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Yes, I know. We can all make choices and become Christian. But answer this. If I came to you with a belief system, basically identical to yours, but different. If I told you that you won't get to heaven because you choose hell. How would you feel? You wouldn't care, you already have your own thing going on and you wouldn't act against your faith. That's the point where you or I are unable to listen/make choices who to listen to. The fact that you or I wouldn't act against our beliefs is what makes us incapable of "choice". And thus shouldn't be judged.

I acted against my faith and considered myself agnostic for a couple years. I then acted against that faith and am now a devoted follower of Christ.

People act against their faith every day. We are very capable of choice.


Seek God, truly. It will change your life.

Originally Posted by ninja pirate

God is responsible for creating the universe and for granting us free will. Given that we have free will, we are responsible for using it as we see fit.

And yet it was not me who chose to exist and take the responsibility. Somebody else has taken their responsibilities and dropped them onto me... at least from this religious perspective. If I'm to be judged by every choice I make, then it should be noted that every choice I made is a result of a single choice - God's choice to create me.

Originally Posted by ninja pirate

You are well aware that they may and probably will make the wrong choices from time to time. Is this a reason not to have children at all?

If their choices mean that they will go to a hell for an eternity, then it's definitely a reason not to have children at all. As I said. Some Christian who believes in a hell is doing what, as I see it, God has done. Taken the responsibility for some action then dumped it onto the child. So suddenly it's their child's fault if he gets to hell... how illogical. I don't see a reason to create more potential burn victims.

Originally Posted by ninja pirate

If you believe there is no free choice, and therefore that emotions like love are programmed, then you have to surrender all freedom of thought whatsoever.

If you do not have freedom of thought, your entire philosophy on this forum falls apart (as you are simply programmed to hold that philosophy). Do you really believe we do not have free will?

I don't really understand what freedom of thought means here. If you're saying that without this transcendental free will I cannot form my thoughts, then I say that's incorrect, since simple causality can result in thought. If a soulless monkey can have complex thoughts, then so can a human.

Saying that my argument falls appart because I actually have an argument is therefore invalid, since thoughts haven't been corelated to souls with free will, neither have souls been proven for that fact. If I am programmed to have an idea, an idea doesn't disappear if a soul wasn't the one to make it, why would it?
Free will can just be an illusion. I don't see how it would hold any meaning in the objective universe. I'm not saying that I hold absolute knowledge... but one way or the other, I am being determined. If things don't just pop into existence out of nothing, then I don't see why thoughts are exempt from this.

Originally Posted by ninja pirate

God will reveal Himself when you seek Him with all your heart. You have been told He loves you unconditionally and that is all the revelation you need. The next move is yours.

Apparently that's not all I need. What I need is tangible proof, from which I can either conclude that I'm hallucinating (which only supports my point that it's immoral to punish me for something I have no control over), or that Jesus is real. Since "revalations" surprisingly happen for every form of religion, it's safe to conclude that dieties are in the eye of the beholder, so no matter how much time I waste praying, Jesus won't exist untill he exists for me. Which won't happen since you say that the only way to see him is to believe in him.

Originally Posted by ninja pirate

I acted against my faith and considered myself agnostic for a couple years. I then acted against that faith and am now a devoted follower of Christ.

People act against their faith every day. We are very capable of choice.

Prove this by making a choice not to be Christian this very moment. I'll take a big guess that you didn't do it.

We are very incapable of choice.