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Originally Posted by
Alric
Please don't insult me. I was going to say something rude back, but instead I am just going to leave it at this. I was using the common English version of the words, while you were using whats in a philosophical encyclopedia. If you look up valid in the dictionary, the one of the common definition of the word valid is sound. If you look up valid in a thesaurus, you would see they are synonyms. Synonyms are two different words that mean the same, or very similar things. It is so common for multiple words to have the same meaning, they even got a special word for it. So don't even go there.
I specifically said in my post that I was using strict logical definitions. It is not my fault if you are not paying attention to details such as this.
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As for what I believe in. Well to keep it short, I believe there is probably an afterlife. I believe there might be a god. I believe any being that can create a universe could be considered a god even if its not consciously aware of it. I don't think it really matters if there is a god or not, and I live my life the same regardless of that fact.
See, I am ignoring other things said because it seems irrelevant to you.
I was arguing against the typical Theistic approach to miracles and praying. If you wish to debate them from a different approach, then it is likely that we will not debate anything much. There is little difference between praying and mediation; that was all my point was and you seem to agree.
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I could say sciences kills a ton of people with weapons, such as the atomic bomb. However that is silly. The atomic bomb doesn't equal science. However my point is, a cult doesn't equal mainstream religion either. Religion and science are ideas, cults and bombs are objects and things.
Calling something a cult does not necessitate it being unique or negative. Christianity is technically a cult - but that is not something I am using to denigrate it or use a specific word to deter it. The fact is that there are promises made if you make certain sacrifices; that is the basic premise of a cult and religions are more or less just organized cults. The line is very thin and we could easily get into semantics here but I just want to tell you that it is not really a concern of mine. I just want you to know that I do not think calling it a "cult" is a bad thing.
As it seemed to me to be a semantics thing with you, I just want to make it evidently clear that I see no difference between cult and religion other than size and it is really of no consequence either way.
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One could say Christianity is just a large cult, but there is a problem with that. Its so big that everyone believes something different, and there are so many branches. You simply can not lump them all together. It just doesn't work very well. Which is what my problem, with people trying to lump them all together and calling them all delusional. It really isn't fair, or accurate. Especially since good things do come from religion, a lot of good things.
You try to use the diversity of belief as a defense for Christianity. I find that very strange. If it is meant to be a universal belief system with fundamental beliefs based on holy scripture, then how is it so diverse? You know, usually people use that point you used against Christianity.
Personally, I don't care - it is not my point what the structure of the religion is. If someone believes in something that they are told without reason or evidence, then they are delusional. Especially worse if they are explicitly shown evidence too.
Don't forget, good things can come from people like Charles Manson too; he helped some people feel better and enlighten others. He also helped some writers make a writing career. Does that mean he is suddenly good? No, of course not.
His beliefs and how he utilized them are far worse and there are much better things that can do much more good for people.
What is the good that Theism does that non-Theists cannot do?
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Originally Posted by
aorozco
Hmm.. that's a good point. psychological damge can be represented in physical damage as well, i.e brainwash=harm oneself, so No i don't think he should be set free. I know that would seem to contradict what I said earlier, but it doesn't. I clearly said, that it is within that person's right to share their beliefs with people and not be in the wrong for doing so, but forcing one's beliefs on someone would clash with our rights as americans, thus seperation of church and state-blahblahblah, and so it gives us the right to share such beliefs, just not neccessarily force it. "Brainwashing" someone does/ can cause physical/psychological harm, which i consider psychological damage, physical, because it lead to it.
You are really missing my point and it's really hard to explain it to you now because I think it is something you are not considering;
What of those that manipulate others by telling them their delusional beliefs and the naive people accept it? What about those that truly believe wrong things and convince others that it is right (eg. Charles Manson)?
You seem to be missing the point entirely; Charles Manson did not force his beliefs onto people, he simply told them it. Then, they killed people. A lot of people.
According to you; he was allowed to do that.
You should note now to people that you are part of the Manson Family.
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That's not what I said, I said, that I cannot take the law upon my own hands and do "justice" by bashing someone mentally or physically as "justice." That is not my job.
The point is that the justice system uses a sense of justification for what they do and I am asking you what you think it ought to be. You are simply excusing yourself and saying that it is not your job? Come on now; don't be lazy; you are able to think for your self.
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I did see your video. Assuming that everyone who is a christian believes that prayer is for miracles, or that God has to answer their prayer is not a good thing. Too often people assume that God will answer all prayers and that he needs to. Such a silly thing. Seriously, the majority of christians may think so, but then again, the minority such as I will tell you no.
Then what's the point of praying that is not the main point of meditation?
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I see your point about the weak people being susceptible to manipulation. In that case then should we not assume resaponsibilty to help people out in the streets and to help them get clean, have a place to stay and teach them so that they maybe educated? We are so quick to judge them, and say how weak they are and poor weak minded people, yet we can't assume responsibility. funny how that works. That I know of, science hasn't been a main reason to go to war. No. And that's cool, I like science, I believe in evoluton to a degree.
Don't be so sanctimonious. Of course we would love to help all these people out and we try our best as resources allow. The fact of the matter is that there will always be those in need; you cannot develop a utopia.
Furthermore, that is not the type of people I am even speaking of.
You realize how many people vote for someone just based on, "He's Christian"? Do you not consider that this is a tool to manipulate people? Ever since Constantine has religion been a political tool; and that is all that it is.
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Well first of all, I am not killing people or manipilating them to kill themselves, so on so forth... I have told you plenty of times, I don't care what religion, cult, whatever you beieve in. That's simply your beliefs. I will not sit here and bash someone for it. no matter how f-d up their beliefs may seem. But when their beliefs do interfere with people's safety, then it is time to interfere. Please remember that. I am tired of re-stating it.
Are you ignoring how many problems that religions can have on others? Do you really need me to re-state it? Because you are clearly not paying attention.
Religion is a major cause of violence and a very popular reason for homicides, wars, and violence. Tell me what the war over Jerusalem has been ever since human recorded history has existed?
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Okay. as for the oppression/suppression, How so? We simply have out own opinions.
All I will do is mention Galileo as evidence. To think that parallel's are not apparent today is simply ignorant.
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We aren't stiffling growth in this area.
suffering in Africa, That's what I mean by using the legal system. Just sucks that they don't really have one. Just adds on to my point that, it's people's beliefs, and if legal action could be taken, then it should be.
Dettering abortions.. Well I don't see how that's bad... but I refuse to get on that topic, seeng as I will never succeed with it. :P sexual orientation, hmm.. well I guess I am a "bad" christian, but I personally say, if you're happy with your sexual orientation, then be it so. I understand that churches havve the opposite thinking, but as long as they aren't harming anyone I don't see the badness. I mean yeah it sucks becasue alot of people can't get married, but leagalities are the issue here. manipulation of the public. well I understand how that can be a problem, but to be honest, once again, if you let such things persuade you so easily, then whatever, to each his own.. Once again, no physical.psychological damage, and i see no stiffling of anything with this, simply as, it's still that person's vote, just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong... the prayer stuff is BS. sorry, but my church actually has programs to help not only fellow members deal with financial struggles, but also classes to teach on to deal with such problems. So I see no stifling there.. Indoctrination of children. That is a good point, and I agree that children should make up their own mind, but sometimes are not really allowed but then again, How did you or anyone else come up with their morals? by the teachings you've encountered. thus, you in a way are brainwashed right?
Perhaps you could explain to me how it is a bad thing to "brain-wash" your kids into thinking for themselves and being skeptical of being brain-washed? Perhaps you could tell me the best thing to teach your child and how it is better than teaching skepticism or the scientific approach to knowledge.
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I personally grew up in a christian home, left the church for 4 years to "find" myself, and made up my mind to be where i am now... Well don't know what to tell you about ID. I haven't taken the class so couldn't tell you much about it. Evolution and such aren't taught min most schools for the same reason as God isn't. because it would be forcing opinions into youngsters mind. besides, neither evolution nor creationism are scientifical facts, thus they shouldn't be taught in a classroom.
Wrong; evolution is scientific fact.
Apparently you are also not educated but this does not surprise me from people who argue it.
I have a profound amount resources I can call upon; what evidence do you need to see to see that evolution is fact? I ask because it seems that if I do so on my own, people ignore it and completely disregard me.
So I will leave it at;
What evidence can I provide you to prove to you that evolution is fact? (Because it is).
In addition, I ignored several points within the paragraph because you again failed to see the point. I was listing those problems that I see religion can cause and you did nothing but try to justify and defend the claims. I do not want to really argue those things but simply illustrate to you that I hold a confident argument for each of them. We can start individual threads for almost every individual one. I just want it clear to you that I am confident in the truth of each one.
What do you think...?
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