10 Questions for an Intelligent Christian

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Originally Posted by aorozco

But O who are we to stop them from doing somethingg they think is right? in this case they are harming themselves yes, but they chose it to be that way..

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You are the rest of civilzation; if someone is delusional and convinces others of delusions, then they are a danger to others. Charles Manson epitomizes this. Do you think we ought to have let him free roam?

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Once again, it's their belief... Should everyone just drop their beliefs because they don't coincide with yours O?

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You do not even know what my beliefs are so do not try to be coy with me.

Are you trying to defend yourself by attacking me? I will stick with Charles Manson; do you agree then, based on your logic, that he ought to stick to his beliefs about Helter Skelter?

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Some may view it that way. I see prayer not as a way to ask for miracles, but a way to let God know how i feel. a way that I can talk to him, not him to me.

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Right - and you may find intrigue in the psychology of religion that asserts that what you are describing is the only reason religion exists; to offer emotional feedback to the person when no other attachment figure can do the same.

Furthermore, this only deters the power of God as it is supposed to be responsive.

Unless you are Deist.

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Yes they do claim that. No one has to believe this O. I do, because i just do. I have no concrete evidence, but those are just my beliefs...

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Again; what do you call someone who believes something regardless of no reason or proof?

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Hmm. Using your logic, yes all christians are. I am okay with being called delusional for my belief. It takes alot of faith to believe in what i do. I am okay with that. It just gives me more reason to keep trying to learn more.

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So you think you are delusional and choose to believe it anyway... why?

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Same as most science and school teachings would you not agree? I am sure that most of your thoughts have been "regurgitated" and that you are mostly repeating what many others have said. Shall we not believe in science as well?

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And tell me - what is the point of peer-reviewed scientific journals?

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Originally Posted by Alric

Some people say there are some 2 billion Christians in the world. So 'millions' of people, is actually a tiny percentage of the total amount. 20 million is only 1 percent. So there may very well be millions of people who avoid medical care because of it, however, they are such a tiny percent they hardly make up an accurate representation of the religion as a whole.

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These numbers are really arbitrary.

When do you consider it "significant"? And my numbers are obviously arbitrary; I know that many have gone. Regardless, it is still a lot of people that are being mislead into something fatal.

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In fact, in the US like 80 percent of the population is Christian. If the vast majority of people in the US refused medical care, I think we would all know. The simple fact however, is that it is simply untrue. Only a tiny percentage of people are like that. Most Christians will get as much care as anyone else.

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Again, the numbers here are arbitrary and the point is still that it does happen when it shouldn't. Only a small amount of people followed Charles Manson.. should we forgive him on that account?

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They are not delusional. If you are faced with a question and there is no answer or proof, then all you can do is take your best guess. If a persons best guess is that religion is true, then that is simply their best guess in the face of no proof for anything. They do have reasons for why they might feel one way or the other but in the end it is still just a guess and so it can't be delusional.

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So if you do not know the answer, you are saying that you ought to presume the answer and live as though it were true? Are you ignoring the fact that the majority of atheists are still open to the idea that there could be a God?

~

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Originally Posted by Alric

Well you can say you don't think someone has a logical answer, but if they provide a logical answer, that would make you wrong. Just because something is logical doesn't mean it is true. Which is why two people can come to two different conclusions, why both of them being logical. Especially, in a topic like this where there are so many levels of understanding to it.

Christians become atheists, and atheists become Christians. Some people bounce back and forth between them as they learn more and experience life. A reasonable person could logically come to either conclusion, without being delusional or stupid or anything.

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I'm waiting for this logical answer to make me wrong. In the meantime, I wasn't talking about someones idea or belief in relation to the truth, I was talking about the human perception of knowing and the implications on belief. This is what separates those who think they are thinking and those who actually think... or should I say the sheep and the people who form their own perception of reality.

It is not arbitrary to say that a fraction of a percent doesn't make a good representation of the whole. .005% isn't an accurate representation by anyone's definition. My definition of significant number doesn't really matter, when we are speaking of such a tiny percent.

To make the claim that religion is dangerous, you would have to show that there is an increase in people acting poorly because of religion, when you have shown nothing of the sort.

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Originally Posted by O'nus

Are you ignoring the fact that the majority of atheists are still open to the idea that there could be a God?

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According to the video, if you are an atheist who is open to the idea of a god, you are delusional. Which was my point, that he is calling everyone delusional, including people with belief systems he didn't even talk about. He made a poorly made generalization of everyone.

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Originally Posted by Alric

It is not arbitrary to say that a fraction of a percent doesn't make a good representation of the whole. .005% isn't an accurate representation by anyone's definition. My definition of significant number doesn't really matter, when we are speaking of such a tiny percent.

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I was saying the numbers were arbitrary..

What is it with people and being unable to properly set forth arguments without screwing it all up?

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To make the claim that religion is dangerous, you would have to show that there is an increase in people acting poorly because of religion, when you have shown nothing of the sort.

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http://www.keyboarddevil.com/blog/wp...6/athgraph.png

Do you really want more evidence of this? Because there certainly is.

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According to the video, if you are an atheist who is open to the idea of a god, you are delusional.

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No it doesn't - where does it say that? You're screwing it up again, pay attention.

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Which was my point, that he is calling everyone delusional, including people with belief systems he didn't even talk about. He made a poorly made generalization of everyone.

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Now this is just sad; you're really mis-representing what he has said and not even properly saying what he said. Is that really the best defense you got? Because that is not what was said in the video.

Even if it was, that is not what I am saying and the rest of the content remains valid.

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How about some evidence, such as a source instead of random images? And yes, the video clearly states that if you even believe in the possibility of a god, then you are delusional. The video is very clearly on that, that there can be no wiggle room. It claims to prove god can't possibly exist, and so even considering it, makes you delusional. If you don't believe me, watch the video again, to the end.

It doesn't say there is no god, it says god doesn't care about or interfere with humans.

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Originally Posted by SomeDreamer

If you decide not to post I'd only assume it's because the points and arguments made against you are hard to counter? ^^ But that's okay though.

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...Nooguh...

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How about some evidence, such as a source instead of random images?

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Funny, you think O'nus would just post random pictures?

I've seen similar statistics hundreds of times before, they may not be 100% accurate, but there is a common trend.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

Very well then. I'm not going to post here. Not because it is too hard, but at present, I have things that would better occupy my time than this particular thread.

You may believe my motives are as you wish, but that does not matter to me. I know what my intentions are, and you may believe what you wish.

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Thanks for the update!

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Originally Posted by evildoctor

I like to embrace my reality and unreality in equal measure.

Sadly, all this is fine except of course when lots of like minded dogma junkies group together and start passing laws to make you live according to the standards of their delusions.

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So you do recognize that there is a problem when people start behaving as though the untrue things they have imagined are true and go on to do things which affect others' lives? In this case, you actually have just as much of a problem with the delusional as anyone else here.

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Originally Posted by Alric

You are just making silly claims. The vast majority of Christians still go to the doctors when sick and stuff. Out of all the people I have known, I have never seen a single person try to heal an injury with prayer alone.

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Probably because they know that god will not magically heal them. You'd have to wonder why they'd pray at all if they ask things like "Please help me recover in a way which could happen without your assistance. But it's okay if you don't." It almost makes you think that maybe they know somewhere deep down that god isn't real.

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Originally Posted by Alric

The vast majority of Christians believe in an afterlife, and they believe that being kind and helping each other in life, and being humble to the creator of all things when give them a good afterlife. This is a philosophical opinion, and not delusional.

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"Being kind and helping each other in life" is not a quality inherent to nor only found in the religious. If you agree with that statement, then you must recognize that such qualities don't have a religious basis. If you ask them, I'll bet you most of them would tell you something like "If we were all kind and caring to each other, the world would be a much better place." or something like that. There's no delusion there, that's just a simple logical deduction.

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Originally Posted by Alric

None of them believe prayers are magical wish granting machines.

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Right, that's kind of the point, isn't it? But the question is, if god does occasionally answer prayers and does occasionally heal people, why does he do these strange things like ignore the amputees? Why would he be unwilling to restore their limbs? The point the video is trying to make is that so long as you think that there is a loving god who sometimes answers prayers, there's really no good answer as to why he wouldn't do this. Why shouldn't they be magical wish granting machines in at least some of these cases? Because according to some, that's what they already do.

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Originally Posted by Alric

You can't blame religion for what some crazy cult does. Even if there was no religion, the cult would still exist in some other way. Just because a crazy person happens to be Christian doesn't mean its the religions fault.

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The cults would not exist without delusion, however.

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Originally Posted by Alric

If I am religious and start to hear voices and they tell me to kill someone, then I do.

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lul

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Originally Posted by Alric

They are not delusional. If you are faced with a question and there is no answer or proof, then all you can do is take your best guess. If a persons best guess is that religion is true, then that is simply their best guess in the face of no proof for anything. They do have reasons for why they might feel one way or the other but in the end it is still just a guess and so it can't be delusional.

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Or you could be honest and say those magic words "I don't know." The delusion enters when you are confronted with facts which don't fall in line with your belief and you create rationalizations (that is, excuses) for it. This is the point the video makes. Delusional thinking is destructive and dangerous even if specific conclusions arrived from it are not dangerous (or even happen to be true.)

i dont know how to do the mini quote things... :p

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Originally Posted by O'nus

You are the rest of civilzation; if someone is delusional and convinces others of delusions, then they are a danger to others. Charles Manson epitomizes this. Do you think we ought to have let him free roam?~

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My answer to this would be, we have a justice system for this... I'm not going to sit here and bash on him for his beliefs, i'll simply disagree and that's it. since it did involve physical distruction, i would indeed have legal action taken to prevent injury or death from occuring, but I can't change someone's belief simply for it not coinciding with mine...

~[/QUOTE]You do not even know what my beliefs are so do not try to be coy with me.

Are you trying to defend yourself by attacking me? I will stick with Charles Manson; do you agree then, based on your logic, that he ought to stick to his beliefs about Helter Skelter?~[/QUOTE]

uumm... Okay? Sorry for not wanting to assume what your beliefs were?
I am not attacking you I am merely stating what i think... He should believe in whatever he wants.. Yeah i'd rather him not believe that, but once again, we have a justice system for things like that.



~[/QUOTE]Right - and you may find intrigue in the psychology of religion that asserts that what you are describing is the only reason religion exists; to offer emotional feedback to the person when no other attachment figure can do the same.

Furthermore, this only deters the power of God as it is supposed to be responsive.

Unless you are Deist.~[/QUOTE]

Huh... Interesting, thanks for birging that up. I don't know much about the psychology of religion.. I'll have to look into that. Well i'll do my best... lol
what i can say is that, I personally do not think that religion is only existent to offer emotional feed back. It may seem so to many, but well not to me...
God has noneed to be responsive... He gives us the power to help one another. Tell me O, what bad is the christian church doing? Katrina, who responded even before the government? Churches. A church helps the community, rather than destroy it. -sigh- People just choose not to see that. It's okay though i guess...


~[/QUOTE]Again; what do you call someone who believes something regardless of no reason or proof?



So you think you are delusional and choose to believe it anyway... why?~[/QUOTE]

In your definition, yes I guess I am delusional. I don't choose to believe in God. I just believe. I just.. Know.

~[/QUOTE]And tell me - what is the point of peer-reviewed scientific journals?~[/QUOTE]

The bible as well was reviewed by many people... Not just the disciples... Everyone comes up with different translations, or meanings but they all point to the same point it means.



Can I ask you something? What evil is the church doing? I don't mean cults and such I mean, like the Christian church... Please tell me.

Well the video says 3 out of 4 doctors, think miracles happen. So if people want to believe they do, I suppose they have reasons to back them up. If your doctor tells you its a miracle, then you wouldn't be delusional because you believed them. If you say that a person knows god won't heal them, then what exactly are they delusional about? It sounds like they are reasonable and sane, and thinking entire logically. Just because they believe in an afterlife, doesn't make them delusional.

Being nice isn't limited to religion, but no one ever made that claim did they? Religion teaches people to be kind and to help each other. Just because other things also say that, why should we limit our self?

By your logic, if someone is faced with questions and they come up with logical answers, which are not just excuses, then they are not delusional. Which was my point. You can answer the questions within your religion, without making up excuses.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Well the video says 3 out of 4 doctors, think miracles happen. So if people want to believe they do, I suppose they have reasons to back them up.

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Oh, they have their reasons. Well, you should have just said so in the first place. :shakehead2:

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Originally Posted by Alric

If your doctor tells you its a miracle, then you wouldn't be delusional because you believed them.

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You would in the event that you know that the belief is not true but make up excuses to justify it anyway. What exactly are you saying, here? That just because a doctor tells you your recovery was miraculous, he's right by default?

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Originally Posted by Alric

If you say that a person knows god won't heal them, then what exactly are they delusional about? It sounds like they are reasonable and sane, and thinking entire logically.

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First of all, let me stress the fact that anyone can delude themselves and most people do it all the time for many reasons. It isn't something exclusive to the religious or insane. Secondly, my point is that they aren't behaving delusionally in those instances since their behavior has a rational rather than religious basis. I do not contend that absolutely every person who deludes themselves about a specific thing is delusional in every other regard. Please read closer to what I'm actually saying.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Being nice isn't limited to religion, but no one ever made that claim did they? Religion teaches people to be kind and to help each other. Just because other things also say that, why should we limit our self?

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Yeah, sure. Why not believe things we know aren't true? My point is that we don't need to turn to religion, and that religion is inherently delusional. Non-delusional, logical beliefs are the only valid alternative and we don't call them "religious beliefs." If something is reasoned, logical and is shown to be true via evidence, it is called science.

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Originally Posted by Alric

By your logic, if someone is faced with questions and they come up with logical answers, which are not just excuses, then they are not delusional. Which was my point. You can answer the questions within your religion, without making up excuses.

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Really, you can? Can you provide an example of an answer such a religious person as the kind the video was addressing would provide to explain why god doesn't heal amputees?

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Originally Posted by Alric

How about some evidence, such as a source instead of random images?

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I did quite a bit of searching into it and here are some results that you may find interesting;
+ Males often use religion to justify crime
- Countries dominated by male powerful religions (eg. Islam) are most violent
+ Females more often use religion to deter crime
- However there are really no countries powered by females that can give a statistic for female country ran crime rate
+ Meta-analysis of crime rate and religion more often show that, the more religious a country is, the more violent it is
- This varies a lot every year
- It is hard to claim a lot of crime as it is dependent on reports (we cannot statistically know what crimes are not being reported)
- There are many countries that report false claims (eg. Islam and Iran have significantly skewed data from different political groups and even databases)

I retract my statements as I cannot empricially prove it but I can say that religious men are more often more violent than nonreligious men.

I could source this for you, but this is honestly from a meta-analysis and my own reading. I hope you can see that I am honest here and please not ask me to copy and paste over 600 articles that this meta-analysis included. I would if you really wanted but my hope is that you see that it seems to be reasonably difficult to assert either way apparently.

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And yes, the video clearly states that if you even believe in the possibility of a god, then you are delusional. The video is very clearly on that, that there can be no wiggle room. It claims to prove god can't possibly exist, and so even considering it, makes you delusional. If you don't believe me, watch the video again, to the end.

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It is not speaking of believing in God in general; it is speaking of believing in God via praying and praying in general. Pay attention.

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Originally Posted by aorozco

My answer to this would be, we have a justice system for this... I'm not going to sit here and bash on him for his beliefs, i'll simply disagree and that's it. since it did involve physical distruction, i would indeed have legal action taken to prevent injury or death from occuring, but I can't change someone's belief simply for it not coinciding with mine...

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Considering this, are you to say then that Charles Manson ought to be let free? Remember, he did not kill anyone, he simply convinced others to do it for him based on the idea of Helter Skelter.

So please.. tell me that Charles Manson ought to be set free.

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uumm... Okay? Sorry for not wanting to assume what your beliefs were?
I am not attacking you I am merely stating what i think... He should believe in whatever he wants.. Yeah i'd rather him not believe that, but once again, we have a justice system for things like that.

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So, you do not have any beliefs of your own then - the justice system ought to do the thinking for you.

You are not answering the question so much as relaying me to another person to do the thinking for you.

In which case then, you ought to agree with me as the justice system does in the case of Charles Manson.

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Huh... Interesting, thanks for birging that up. I don't know much about the psychology of religion.. I'll have to look into that. Well i'll do my best... lol
what i can say is that, I personally do not think that religion is only existent to offer emotional feed back.
It may seem so to many, but well not to me...
God has noneed to be responsive... He gives us the power to help one another.

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Firstly, I'm not going to argue against you by utilizing the psychology of religion; I just wanted you to know that it is being studied.

It seems you did not watch my video. A lot of functions of God and prayer is via self-fulfilling prophecy and confirmation bias.

Imagine the sense of autonomy without a God dictating for you.

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Tell me O, what bad is the christian church doing? Katrina, who responded even before the government? Churches. A church helps the community, rather than destroy it. -sigh- People just choose not to see that. It's okay though i guess...

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I will not deny the good it can bring people. However, we can also say that poison or radiation can do good to. This is applicable to Atheism and science as well; it is all about the individual.

However, when it comes to enlightenment, you must realize that if a certain person lives a certain way then they could be vulnerable to other nativities.
Think of those that followed Charles Manson (choosing him again to remain consistent if you decide to research it); these people were weak minded drug addicts and already susceptible to his manipulation.

Think of the Crusaders and what state of mind they had to be in in order to be convinced to fight for God.

I am not using the Crusade as a "Religion does evil" argument but using it to demonstrate to you that religion is a very easy way to ease people into fighting for a country; in the name of God.

However.. how many wars do you hear in the name of Science?

I must assert to you that I am Atheist because of my deep kindred with science.

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In your definition, yes I guess I am delusional. I don't choose to believe in God. I just believe. I just.. Know.

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Right; just like the Heavens Gate people, Islam, Jews, Buddhists, and Charles Manson.

But how do you know your knowing is better than theirs?

Do you not see how this is the modern equivalent of Greek vs Roman Gods?

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The bible as well was reviewed by many people... Not just the disciples... Everyone comes up with different translations, or meanings but they all point to the same point it means.

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When you speak to me; please remain on topic. Pay attention.

You said to me;
"Same as most science and school teachings would you not agree? I am sure that most of your thoughts have been "regurgitated" and that you are mostly repeating what many others have said. Shall we not believe in science as well?"

Please consider my question again as I am not using this proposition against you but in my defense.

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Can I ask you something? What evil is the church doing? I don't mean cults and such I mean, like the Christian church... Please tell me.

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+ Scientific oppression and suppression
+ Suffering of those in Africa (Pope declares no condom usage)
+ Deterring abortions and free choice
+ Deterring sexual orientation (and dictating it)
+ Manipulating voting public (vote for me is a vote for God)
+ Deviation from real problems (the economy is failing.. let us pray)
+ Indoctrination of children (children forced to believe what their family does for fear of family ostracism)
+ Invading public classrooms with religious agenda's (Intelligent Design)

The list goes on.

~

I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. I am just saying, if you have a valid reason to believe something, then your not delusional. Being right or wrong doesn't make you delusional. It is being wrong, and knowing you are wrong and still thinking you are right, that is delusional. Someone could believe something is correct, based on the evidence they have seen, and turn out to be wrong, but that doesn't make them delusional.

As for the amputees, I already addressed that. Amputees can both be cured of other illnesses, and can overcome their amputations. If you lose both legs, and you learn to walk again, then you are walking. You can't cure a missing leg, but you can cure the inability to walk.

I would probably agree that dictators often use excuses to gain power. Things like religion work well, for distracting the people so that a dictator can come to power. However, this normally isn't a reflection of the religion being bad, or the general population being more violent. But that dictators will do anything to gain power.

The point of the thread was about rational intelligent people after all. Gullible and naive people, can be lead astray by anything. Just because someone uses religion to trick them, doesn't mean religion is at fault. They would have gotten fooled and tricked by anything. If its not religion, then simply something else.

As for the video, I know it speaks entirely about believing in God via praying and praying in general. The conclusion of the video however, is a large generalization that no one should ever believe in god. Which is my problem. It all works, except everything he is speaking about, fails to match up with the conclusion he made. Which was my problem.

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Originally Posted by Alric

I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. I am just saying, if you have a valid reason to believe something, then your not delusional.

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You seem to be failing to see the point I am making to you.

Charles Manson's points were sound but that does not mean that they were true and especially not ethical.

Using strict logical definitions, religion is not valid; it is sound. If it were valid, then we would all believe in it as it would have undeniable evidence and reason for it. However, that is not the case.

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Being right or wrong doesn't make you delusional. It is being wrong, and knowing you are wrong and still thinking you are right, that is delusional. Someone could believe something is correct, based on the evidence they have seen, and turn out to be wrong, but that doesn't make them delusional.

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Are you blind to what you are saying?

Of course no one willingly chooses to believe something if they think it is wrong. The delusional are those that think they are right even though there is clear evidence that they are wrong (eg. Charles Manson and Theism).

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As for the amputees, I already addressed that. Amputees can both be cured of other illnesses, and can overcome their amputations. If you lose both legs, and you learn to walk again, then you are walking. You can't cure a missing leg, but you can cure the inability to walk.

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I did not mention amputee's myself but;

What you are doing here is a real desperate plea to defend the praying and miracle debate. You are missing the point.

If praying and God can make miracles happen, then why are not amputee's healed? Hopefully you are insightful enough to see the point this time.

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I would probably agree that dictators often use excuses to gain power. Things like religion work well, for distracting the people so that a dictator can come to power. However, this normally isn't a reflection of the religion being bad, or the general population being more violent. But that dictators will do anything to gain power.

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Perhaps you are neglecting the possibility that dictator's often believe what they are professing. Let us not forget many of the pasts horrible dictators and their beliefs.

Let us also come back to Charles Manson; he truly believed what he said and so did those that joined him. This is because they were delusional and the information was skewed just enough with truth to make it seem valid.

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The point of the thread was about rational intelligent people after all. Gullible and naive people, can be lead astray by anything. Just because someone uses religion to trick them, doesn't mean religion is at fault. They would have gotten fooled and tricked by anything. If its not religion, then simply something else.

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Of course; it is undeniable that pseudo-science is very appealing to the delusional (eg. parapsychology).

However, it is still up to science to help debunk these things. This is why something like www.skeptic.com exists and why peer-reviews exist.

Please tell me.. what is the religious equivalent..?

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As for the video, I know it speaks entirely about believing in God via praying and praying in general. The conclusion of the video however, is a large generalization that no one should ever believe in god. Which is my problem. It all works, except everything he is speaking about, fails to match up with the conclusion he made. Which was my problem.

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You are likely referring to "God is imaginary".

This is because, as of now, God is imaginary. There is no proof or evidence of God. Therefore, it is an imaginary concept.

Even gravity was imaginary at a point of time. So was other planets.

Realize that science still ventures to prove or disprove imaginary and other hypothesized truths while updating previous facts.

~

Sound and valid mean the same thing. Both implying that a person could reasonable believe either of them. However, killing a bunch of people is neither sound or valid.

The problem, is that there is no clear evidence any of it is wrong, so people are not delusional in believing it. If they are wrong, then they are simply wrong and needed more information.

Back to the amputee thing, that goes back to my original post. That a person can believe in prayer for guidance and insight, which can lead to overcome challenges and do things they couldn't before. A person can be a Christian and believe that, without also believing that people can spontaneously heal. The video only applies to Christian who believe in praying and direct interference by god in the physical world. To the people who do not believe that, the video really says nothing. As for why I bring it up, a person can pray to be able to walk again, and find guidance and courage to find a way around their handicap and walk. It is possible for people to do this on their own, though for some people it may not be. They might need that extra push and the help.

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Originally Posted by evildoctor

Why is oral sex still banned in almost half the US states?!?!? - Because the puritants that founded the country hundreds of years ago thought it was nasty and sinful! I say we rise up! Take to the streets and go down on each other in a glorious display of mass civil disobedience until these wrongs are righted!!!

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oh man. ha. hehehe. oral sex is banned?

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Originally Posted by Alric

As for the amputees, I already addressed that. Amputees can both be cured of other illnesses, and can overcome their amputations. If you lose both legs, and you learn to walk again, then you are walking. You can't cure a missing leg, but you can cure the inability to walk.

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You are ignoring the point. By this time I'm starting to believe you're being willfully ignorant. If you aren't, please try and answer why a god would not regenerate their limbs. I can't cure a missing leg, but why would god not?

Either god doesn't exist, he doesn't care, or he doesn't interfere with the physical world. I already answered that question, in the very first post, when I said that god did the last one. Which is why you get things like spiritual guidance and insight, but never any physical help. And even if god can make you live forever, its not until you leave the physical world, as you most assuredly die here. Which is why religion is a philosophical matter, as it deals in things you can't prove one way or another, and you can only really take your best guess based on your experiences and things you see around you.

All you've done is restate what you've already said. I want to know why a loving god who does occasionally heal people would not regrow a limb. You said earlier that this belief could be understood rationally and without delusion. Can you provide an explanation as to why such a god would behave this way?

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By your logic, if someone is faced with questions and they come up with logical answers, which are not just excuses, then they are not delusional. Which was my point. You can answer the questions within your religion, without making up excuses.

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I'd like for you to explain to me how this question can be answered within the context of a religious belief that god does sometimes answer prayers and heals people without making an excuse. If there is no way to make sense of it, and those people continue to make excuses and believe it anyway it is delusion.

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Originally Posted by Mark75

I want to know why a loving god who does occasionally heal people would not regrow a limb. You said earlier that this belief could be understood rationally and without delusion. Can you provide an explanation as to why such a god would behave this way?

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I didn't say that. I said the question doesn't apply to all Christians, because not all Christians believe is spontaneous healing from prayer. Then I gave examples of how a Christian can not believe in prayer and still be a Christian, and how you can believe in prayer, while not believing in spontaneous healing from prayer. There is many other choices as well. My entire point, was you can't lump all Christians into one big pile then call them all delusional. Especially when the 'proof' doesn't even apply to all Christians.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Sound and valid mean the same thing. Both implying that a person could reasonable believe either of them. However, killing a bunch of people is neither sound or valid.

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There are a lot of things wrong with these sentences.

Firstly, from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy;

"...valid, that is, the conclusion follows deductively from the premises."
+ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-consequence/

Secondly, taken from philosophypages.com;

"A sound argument both has true premises and employs a valid inference; its conclusion must therefore be true."
+ http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/s7.htm#sound

There is a difference between the two words; otherwise there would not be two words. Your ignorance of plain logic speaks testaments to the rest of our conversation, but let us continue as it helps us both learn.

You say that killing is neither sound nor valid but you are misusing the words; killing can be sound if you need to kill someone in order to save someone else. Whatever examples we can come up with does not really matter.. the point is that I was strictly sticking to logical definitions and you screwed it up. You cannot say that it is both invalid and unsound to kill when you obviously believe it is right to kill some times (ie. euthanasia or if someone is threatening to kill your family, etc.).

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The problem, is that there is no clear evidence any of it is wrong, so people are not delusional in believing it. If they are wrong, then they are simply wrong and needed more information.

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If someone from the 700's came here and acted the way they do in how they treat God; what would you say to them? Let us say that this person holds that the sun is a God. You then show them pictures, videos, and miraculous evidence that it is actually a ball of fire, etc. Now what would you call this person if they said, "No, you're wrong, it's God!". Now let us say we brought this man, somehow (it doesn't really matter how) to the sun and showed him it right in front of him and said, "See! It is just a ball of fire - not God" and he replies, "No! You are wrong IT IS GOD!"

What would you call this person?

Miraculously, and thankfully, we do not need to do this when it comes to the same beliefs, from the same time, that are only contained within our minds.

But please, answer my above question and try to be insightful to my point. As you will see, I will try to be insightful to yours in a moment.

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Back to the amputee thing, that goes back to my original post. That a person can believe in prayer for guidance and insight, which can lead to overcome challenges and do things they couldn't before. A person can be a Christian and believe that, without also believing that people can spontaneously heal. The video only applies to Christian who believe in praying and direct interference by god in the physical world. To the people who do not believe that, the video really says nothing. As for why I bring it up, a person can pray to be able to walk again, and find guidance and courage to find a way around their handicap and walk. It is possible for people to do this on their own, though for some people it may not be. They might need that extra push and the help.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Either god doesn't exist, he doesn't care, or he doesn't interfere with the physical world. I already answered that question, in the very first post, when I said that god did the last one. Which is why you get things like spiritual guidance and insight, but never any physical help. And even if god can make you live forever, its not until you leave the physical world, as you most assuredly die here. Which is why religion is a philosophical matter, as it deals in things you can't prove one way or another, and you can only really take your best guess based on your experiences and things you see around you.

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I will keep these two quotes together as they are roughly about the same thing.

Firstly, if God does not care, then he is not all loving. If he doesn't want to interfere with the physical world, then he is not in control of all things or there are flaws in our logic of how he is omnipresent (ie. he ought to be involved and interfering with everything if he is everything).

Edit; I should note a little more on the amputee's. To those that do believe in God miraculous power and intervention in our lives, it ought to prove them wrong.

However, it appears to me that you are a Deist.

If you are not a Deist, you ought to highly consider it, but my assumption is that you are.

In this case, I want to speak in point form for brevity;
+ Deists do not need scripture to believe what they believe
- Christians do

+ Deists tend to be more scientific minded and open to the idea that God could possibly not exist, but they are choosing to willingly live as though he does
- Christians presume that he does exist and completely ignore the possibility that they could be wrong (or are wrong).

+ The Deist and Christian God are very different.
- It is like comparing Buddhism to Vikings.

What I am trying to get at here is that I understand that you are trying to take a stance of let others live the way they wish and believe what they wish to believe.

However, if what others believe is destructive to themselves or others around them, what then? What if they are delusional? (eg. believe that condoms are wrong? Or blood transfusions?)

Religious beliefs are guilty of causing fatalities.

Science is guilty of curing them.

How many times have you heard of a case when someone has avoided medical treatment because of their belief in science? How many times has there been a death cult in the name of science? How many deaths can you attribute to science?

The best bet is to assert; Atheist =/= Science. This comes up a lot but the truth is simple; there is no scientific reason to believe in a God. However, this does not mean it is impossible. Science can still prove God is real! It is just simply not that fact at this juncture. Believing otherwise actually deters us from proving the ideal God or ideal enlightenment.

~

Please don't insult me. I was going to say something rude back, but instead I am just going to leave it at this. I was using the common English version of the words, while you were using whats in a philosophical encyclopedia. If you look up valid in the dictionary, the one of the common definition of the word valid is sound. If you look up valid in a thesaurus, you would see they are synonyms. Synonyms are two different words that mean the same, or very similar things. It is so common for multiple words to have the same meaning, they even got a special word for it. So don't even go there.

Now before we get into debating how much a 'bunch' of people is, the point I was trying to make was that killing a lot of people is always going to objectionable. And the point before that was that it is reasonable for a person to believe in religion without believing in spontaneous regeneration.

I do agree, if someone believes in everything assumed by the guy in the video then they are delusional. That guy from 700 years ago, would be delusional. However disproving limb regeneration, doesn't count as proof to someone who doesn't believe in regeneration to start with.


As for what I believe in. Well to keep it short, I believe there is probably an afterlife. I believe there might be a god. I believe any being that can create a universe could be considered a god even if its not consciously aware of it. I don't think it really matters if there is a god or not, and I live my life the same regardless of that fact.

I could say sciences kills a ton of people with weapons, such as the atomic bomb. However that is silly. The atomic bomb doesn't equal science. However my point is, a cult doesn't equal mainstream religion either. Religion and science are ideas, cults and bombs are objects and things. One could say Christianity is just a large cult, but there is a problem with that. Its so big that everyone believes something different, and there are so many branches. You simply can not lump them all together. It just doesn't work very well. Which is what my problem, with people trying to lump them all together and calling them all delusional. It really isn't fair, or accurate. Especially since good things do come from religion, a lot of good things.

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Originally Posted by Alric

It really isn't fair, or accurate. Especially since good things do come from religion, a lot of good things.

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Please name one good thing that a religious person can do that a secular person can not.

Now please name one wicked thing that a religious person can do that a secular person would not.


If you come up for an answer to the first one, Christopher Hitchens would like to hear it, and so would I :)

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Originally Posted by O'nus

Considering this, are you to say then that Charles Manson ought to be let free? Remember, he did not kill anyone, he simply convinced others to do it for him based on the idea of Helter Skelter.

So please.. tell me that Charles Manson ought to be set free. ~

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Hmm.. that's a good point. psychological damge can be represented in physical damage as well, i.e brainwash=harm oneself, so No i don't think he should be set free. I know that would seem to contradict what I said earlier, but it doesn't. I clearly said, that it is within that person's right to share their beliefs with people and not be in the wrong for doing so, but forcing one's beliefs on someone would clash with our rights as americans, thus seperation of church and state-blahblahblah, and so it gives us the right to share such beliefs, just not neccessarily force it. "Brainwashing" someone does/ can cause physical/psychological harm, which i consider psychological damage, physical, because it lead to it.

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Originally Posted by O'nus

So, you do not have any beliefs of your own then - the justice system ought to do the thinking for you.

You are not answering the question so much as relaying me to another person to do the thinking for you.

In which case then, you ought to agree with me as the justice system does in the case of Charles Manson.~

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That's not what I said, I said, that I cannot take the law upon my own hands and do "justice" by bashing someone mentally or physically as "justice." That is not my job.

~[/QUOTE]Firstly, I'm not going to argue against you by utilizing the psychology of religion; I just wanted you to know that it is being studied.

It seems you did not watch my video. A lot of functions of God and prayer is via self-fulfilling prophecy and confirmation bias.

Imagine the sense of autonomy without a God dictating for you.~[/QUOTE]

Yes and I was simply thanking you for bringing that up, it's nice to hear new things that I can think about, and even research. :)
I did see your video. Assuming that everyone who is a christian believes that prayer is for miracles, or that God has to answer their prayer is not a good thing. Too often people assume that God will answer all prayers and that he needs to. Such a silly thing. Seriously, the majority of christians may think so, but then again, the minority such as I will tell you no.

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Originally Posted by O'nus

I will not deny the good it can bring people. However, we can also say that poison or radiation can do good to. This is applicable to Atheism and science as well; it is all about the individual.

However, when it comes to enlightenment, you must realize that if a certain person lives a certain way then they could be vulnerable to other nativities.
Think of those that followed Charles Manson (choosing him again to remain consistent if you decide to research it); these people were weak minded drug addicts and already susceptible to his manipulation.

Think of the Crusaders and what state of mind they had to be in in order to be convinced to fight for God.

I am not using the Crusade as a "Religion does evil" argument but using it to demonstrate to you that religion is a very easy way to ease people into fighting for a country; in the name of God.

However.. how many wars do you hear in the name of Science?

I must assert to you that I am Atheist because of my deep kindred with science.~

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I see your point about the weak people being susceptible to manipulation. In that case then should we not assume resaponsibilty to help people out in the streets and to help them get clean, have a place to stay and teach them so that they maybe educated? We are so quick to judge them, and say how weak they are and poor weak minded people, yet we can't assume responsibility. funny how that works. That I know of, science hasn't been a main reason to go to war. No. And that's cool, I like science, I believe in evoluton to a degree.

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Originally Posted by O'nus

Right; just like the Heavens Gate people, Islam, Jews, Buddhists, and Charles Manson.

But how do you know your knowing is better than theirs?

Do you not see how this is the modern equivalent of Greek vs Roman Gods?~

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Well first of all, I am not killing people or manipilating them to kill themselves, so on so forth... I have told you plenty of times, I don't care what religion, cult, whatever you beieve in. That's simply your beliefs. I will not sit here and bash someone for it. no matter how f-d up their beliefs may seem. But when their beliefs do interfere with people's safety, then it is time to interfere. Please remember that. I am tired of re-stating it.

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Originally Posted by O'nus

When you speak to me; please remain on topic. Pay attention.

You said to me;
"Same as most science and school teachings would you not agree? I am sure that most of your thoughts have been "regurgitated" and that you are mostly repeating what many others have said. Shall we not believe in science as well?"

Please consider my question again as I am not using this proposition against you but in my defense.~

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okay? I'll take it into account...

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Originally Posted by O'nus

+ Scientific oppression and suppression
+ Suffering of those in Africa (Pope declares no condom usage)
+ Deterring abortions and free choice
+ Deterring sexual orientation (and dictating it)
+ Manipulating voting public (vote for me is a vote for God)
+ Deviation from real problems (the economy is failing.. let us pray)
+ Indoctrination of children (children forced to believe what their family does for fear of family ostracism)
+ Invading public classrooms with religious agenda's (Intelligent Design)

The list goes on.

~

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Okay. as for the oppression/suppression, How so? We simply have out own opinions. We aren't stiffling growth in this area.
suffering in Africa, That's what I mean by using the legal system. Just sucks that they don't really have one. Just adds on to my point that, it's people's beliefs, and if legal action could be taken, then it should be.
Dettering abortions.. Well I don't see how that's bad... but I refuse to get on that topic, seeng as I will never succeed with it. :P sexual orientation, hmm.. well I guess I am a "bad" christian, but I personally say, if you're happy with your sexual orientation, then be it so. I understand that churches havve the opposite thinking, but as long as they aren't harming anyone I don't see the badness. I mean yeah it sucks becasue alot of people can't get married, but leagalities are the issue here. manipulation of the public. well I understand how that can be a problem, but to be honest, once again, if you let such things persuade you so easily, then whatever, to each his own.. Once again, no physical.psychological damage, and i see no stiffling of anything with this, simply as, it's still that person's vote, just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong... the prayer stuff is BS. sorry, but my church actually has programs to help not only fellow members deal with financial struggles, but also classes to teach on to deal with such problems. So I see no stifling there.. Indoctrination of children. That is a good point, and I agree that children should make up their own mind, but sometimes are not really allowed but then again, How did you or anyone else come up with their morals? by the teachings you've encountered. thus, you in a way are brainwashed right? I personally grew up in a christian home, left the church for 4 years to "find" myself, and made up my mind to be where i am now... Well don't know what to tell you about ID. I haven't taken the class so couldn't tell you much about it. Evolution and such aren't taught min most schools for the same reason as God isn't. because it would be forcing opinions into youngsters mind. besides, neither evolution nor creationism are scientifical facts, thus they shouldn't be taught in a classroom.