Thread: a question for believers ;)

I sincerely love my God and my savior Jesus Christ. I follow Him, worship Him, praise Him because I want to. Because I have found truth in Him. Because I know in my heart the he is the way, the light and the truth. What is this just in case mess... Just in case it is real? if that is what you mean then are you really a sincere Christian because of "just in case"? That's not really for me to decide but that statement sounds as if there is doubt. I have no doubt. I know some people don't agree with Christian beliefs and that's fine. Everyone can think for themselves. I'm not here to judge anyone. This is what i find to be true.

Originally Posted by davej

I sincerely love my God and my savior Jesus Christ. I follow Him, worship Him, praise Him because I want to. Because I have found truth in Him. Because I know in my heart the he is the way, the light and the truth. What is this just in case mess... Just in case it is real? if that is what you mean then are you really a sincere Christian because of "just in case"? That's not really for me to decide but that statement sounds as if there is doubt. I have no doubt. I know some people don't agree with Christian beliefs and that's fine. Everyone can think for themselves. I'm not here to judge anyone. This is what i find to be true.

You absolutely can't imagine how somebody can think that god is real and dislike god at the same time? I don't understand it. I swear to you whole-heartedly that it's possible.

What is so irresistably good about somebody who created hell and sends there all those who don't worship him? Doesn't it make more sense to fight the oppressor? That's what people do all the time, they fight their oppressors to be happy, be it governments or bosses or other cruel people that happen to abuse their power over them. That's why laws exists. And you basically say that this human way of life is wrong, that there is one powerful cruel oppressor who is cool despite being a cruel monster, that everybody should sumbit to the whims of this oppressor, and you don't bat an eyelid that otherwise they will suffer the eternal torture. All human crimes pale in comparison to that...

I don't know what makes you think in such a sincerely blind (in my opinion) way. But if you care for somebody, then think how he or she is going to be sent to hell for eternal torture by your cruel god whom you love so much...

Originally Posted by Arutad

You absolutely can't imagine how somebody can think that god is real and dislike god at the same time? I don't understand it. I swear to you whole-heartedly that it's possible.

What is so irresistably good about somebody who created hell and sends there all those who don't worship him? Doesn't it make more sense to fight the oppressor? That's what people do all the time, they fight their oppressors to be happy, be it governments or bosses or other cruel people that happen to abuse their power over them. That's why laws exists. And you basically say that this human way of life is wrong, that there is one powerful cruel oppressor who is cool despite being a cruel monster, that everybody should sumbit to the whims of this oppressor, and you don't bat an eyelid that otherwise they will suffer the eternal torture. All human crimes pale in comparison to that...

I don't know what makes you think in such a sincerely blind (in my opinion) way. But if you care for somebody, then think how he or she is going to be sent to hell for eternal torture by your cruel god whom you love so much...

Originally by Rich Deem

Introduction

Atheists often claim that Christianity could not be true because a loving God would not send billions of people to hell. Although this seems logically valid at first glance, it makes some assumptions that are not true for the God of the Bible. Many atheists claim that those who have never heard of Jesus Christ should not be forced to go to hell.

True love is not permissive

The first false assumption is that love allows the object of that love to do whatever he or she wants. However, this permissive kind of "love" isn't really love at all. Any of you who are parents will recognize that allowing your children to do whatever they want to do is not loving at all. If you were to do this, your children would grow up to be spoiled selfish brats, incapable of loving other people. Permissive gods, who are caught up in their own intrigues, and so allow humans to do whatever they want without repercussions, are found in the pagan religions. However, the God of the Bible wants us to love Him and other people above everything else we do.
God's moral laws have a purpose

The Creator God of the universe is obviously a God of order. The laws that govern the physical universe are so precise that we can calculate the positions of planets, stars, and galaxies thousands to millions of years into the future. Would a God of this kind of precision design moral laws that are random or changing? It doesn't seem likely or consistent with the character of the Creator that we know from the reality of the creation. Therefore, it seems likely that unchanging moral laws are consistent with the God of creation. The Bible says that the moral laws are consistent with the character of God. Therefore, the main purpose of the moral laws are to teach us what God requires for us to enter into His kingdom. The moral laws also allow us to live with each other on earth without hurting each other. In fact, if we all perfectly fulfilled the moral laws of God, we would be in perfect harmony with each other. Our failure to fulfill God's moral laws leads us to seek Him as the source of our salvation.
God's creation of free will beings must allow for the possibility of rejecting God completely

Since God created spiritual beings for the purpose of expressing love, those beings must have complete free will in order to express that love. Of course, free will allows for the possibility of those beings rejecting God and His plans. Unfortunately, most people do not agree that God's rules are good and do not want to live by them. In fact, the vast majority of people want to run their own lives without submitting to God at all. Somehow, they feel that God will just let them into heaven because they have behaved about as good, and maybe even better, compared to the rest of the people on earth. The problem with this idea is that God does not grade on the curve. All who enter God's kingdom must be absolutely holy, since no sin is allowed in God's presence. In addition, people must be willing to allow God to prevent them from sinning ever again, since there is no sin in heaven. This means that people must be willing to submit fully to God's will in order to get into heaven. Of course, all humans fall short of God's moral requirements. Therefore, God has made a provision to erase all sins that we have committed in this life and to perfect us so that we cannot sin in the next life. That provision for sin is through the sacrifice of God's son, Jesus Christ. Jesus took the punishment that we deserve and gives us the reward that we do not deserve - eternal life. In accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, all our sins are erased, and Jesus works to change us into His image (if we allow Him to do so).
People prefer hell over complete submission to God

So why doesn't God make everyone into perfect beings and allow them all into heaven? It would actually be more cruel if God were to do this, since many people prefer hell to the alternative (complete submission to God). All the people who end up going to hell will have done so because they actually prefer hell to being forced into the presence of God for all eternity. People like to live in their favorite sins and answer to no one else. They know that if they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior that God will want them to change their lives and they might have to give up some of their autonomy.
Conclusion Top of page

At this time in history, there is more evidence demonstrating the existence of God than at any time in the past. In addition, there are missionaries throughout the world proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ and the salvation that He offers as a free gift. Although the gift is "free," it will cost you your sin, selfishness, and pride. Since none of these character traits are allowed into heaven, those who insist upon holding onto these traits cannot enter into heaven, but must be separated from God in a place called hell. Therefore, those who go to hell do so voluntarily, preferring hell to complete submission to a holy and just God.

The first false assumption is that love allows the object of that love to do whatever he or she wants.

Sorry, but my first assumption is not so stupid

I don't know what the atheists whom the author refers to assume, but my assumption is not that parental love can't include punishment, but that parental love and eternal torture do not coincide. There is an extremely big difference between "punishing for teaching purposes" and eternal torture, which isn't supposed to teach people anything, but merely to torture them for the whole eternity (in a purely sadistic way?).

Of course, free will allows for the possibility of those beings rejecting God and His plans. Unfortunately, most people do not agree that God's rules are good and do not want to live by them.

Although the gift is "free," it will cost you your sin, selfishness, and pride

Here the author basically equates morality with god, in order to manipulate the audience into believing that the only reason to dislike god is wanting to be amoral...

But let's look at all the more popular buddhists. No belief in god, but desire to be egoless, unselfish, compassionate, etc. Here the author's "mistake" of prescribing morality only to believers is clear, and I don't even mention all "normal" people who want to be moral by their nature, and not because they're forced to be moral out of fear to be tortured. I chose the example of those who want to be extremely moral on purpose: they want it in the very extreme way, they want their ego to be completely destroyed, despite having no incencitive from god whatsoever.

However, the interesting fact is that these people are supposed to go to hell, because they rejected god and didn't beg for salvation during their life-times. So you can see very clearly that for god it's not too important whether you're holy and moral, the most important thing is that you must worship him. This is how people who actually like his rules and want to be perfect can simultaneously consider god as a cruel tyrant demanding worshipping and torturing you forever otherwise.

Dear Arutad

If your sole purpose is to rant against God and not looking at both sides of the story.I no longer need to reply to anything you ask as clearly you have convinced yourself of your `truth` and nothing I can say will change your mind.This goes out to all the other non believers on DV.

Your "other side" is simply made of... God has to send you to hell because he loves you.
Also, it's funny how you diss Arutad saying that she only looks at it from one side, while this is what you do all the time. Has it ever occured to you that perhaps the other person doesn't see eternal hell as a statement of infinite love? It's strange, yes, how can hell not be love, but some people sadly disagree.

What i'm trying to say is all the proof wouldn't do people like you any good as that is what you define as your reality.Testimonies of atheists converting to christianity,miracle healings,dreams from God etc. Wouldnt do you any good you as always that is what you consider non reliable.

While you disregard all the converts to atheism, proofs for the way nature works which excludes god. You don't care what proofs I give you for evolution. On one hand (as I saw in another thread) you said that DNA proves that American natives weren't jews, on the other hand you don't like to hear about DNA proofs of evolution. So much for bias, again. Yes I agree that I will never think anything special of some fool who converted to christianity because he felt something, for the same reason I don't run to the bunkers every few years when the aliens are supposed to come back and kill us all as many others think... So what will it be kingerman, DNA yes or DNA no?

Dear Kingerman,

Are you saving yourself by escape?

Perhaps you could use this thread to check the strength of your argument. If you can't make a believer find your argument convincing, then no atheist would, either. I am arguing here from the viewpoint of a believer (whom I was in past), and am faithfully voicing my thoughts from the past. That's easy for me, my feelings towards god haven't changed. If I have found anything convincing in your words, rest assured that I'd jump at the opportunity to view the past situation from a previously unseen angle. However, so far all that you've said I heard from others in past, and I already have a row of objections to it, which I presented to you, too. Those objections made a world of difference to me.

So instead of thinking that we're having an ego battle here, you could think of that instead: you have found yourself in a true rendition of a real-life situation when somebody felt anger at god and went to talk to other believers in dismay, hoping that they could make sense of god's behavior for her. In my past those believers failed, no matter how sincerely I searched for truth in their words and no matter how much I was afraid of god's punishment. The story repeats in your case, but we've come to the very threshold beyond which others lost their spirit to convince a straying believer, too.

Originally Posted by Arutad

However, the interesting fact is that these people are supposed to go to hell, because they rejected god and didn't beg for salvation during their life-times. So you can see very clearly that for god it's not too important whether you're holy and moral, the most important thing is that you must worship him. This is how people who actually like his rules and want to be perfect can simultaneously consider god as a cruel tyrant demanding worshipping and torturing you forever otherwise.

Fine
Firstly, you have a wrong concept of God and his character. I'll try to give you a very short summary of God's intentions that is totally Biblical. It goes something like this.

- the Bible in Romans 8, Ephesians 1 and elsewhere tells us that before the foundations of the world was laid, God already had a wondrous plan for those who love him. His plan was to adopt them as His children, to be made like Christ in his holiness, and to give them pre-eminence in all creation and give them all kinds of benefits.

- the Bible also leads me to believe that God already had foreknowledge that man would rebel against him and fall, and he already had a plan of sending his son to die as a sacrifice to pave the way for our salvation in order to be adopted as his sons.

- yet knowing all this in advance, and all the pain and anguish it would cost Him and his Son, God out of His love and grace that we might enjoy Him, still chose to make the world. God had no need to make man. God was not lonely, he had perfect fellowship within the Trinity with the Son and Holy Spirit, not to mention the millions if not billions of angelic beings in heaven. He does not need our worship and we can give Him nothing. He made us that we might enjoy knowing Him.

- after making a perfect world, as the crowning act of his creation, he made man in his own image. He heaped all kinds of benefits onto this man, and gave him dominion over all the creatures and plants of the earth, except one tree which they're not supposed to eat from.

- after giving them all these, what do you think was the first response of man when God's back was turned? He strived for equality with his creator, for the serpent said that when you eat of the fruit, your eyes would be open and you will be like God. The utter ungratefulness and wickedness of that act is clear even to us.

- yet after all this, what did God do? If he had wiped man out from the face of the earth then, he would be just to do it. Does not the potter have free choice to do as he would with his clay? Yet God cared for them, made clothing of skins to cover them and promised them a savior who would save them from their sins.

- God sent his servants (prophets) to turn men's hearts to him. He asked them to honour and love Him as He deserves, and to act justly, to be kind to the poor and marginalized, the orphans and widows, to treat your neighbour right. They stoned and killed God's servants.God said I'll send my son, they'll listen to him. They hated his son and crucified him. After all this God said, look you've killed my Son, but if you'll listen to him and honour him, I'll forgive your sins against me, and not only that, I'll also forgive you what you did to my son. We who are earthly fathers and have children of our own can begin to understand God's heart and magnamity.

- after all this that God had done, what do we get from humanity? Utter rebellion towards God, uttering foolish and vile things of the One who made them, and of his Son who came to die for their sakes to offer them a path of salvation to God.

- God commanded the seas that you can come so far and no more, they obey him. God commanded the stars to stay in their circles of orbits, they obey him. Christ commanded the seas and waves to be still, they obey him. Yet when God said to the man whom he had created and loved and done all that for, come to me, the man says "NO!"

- we do not know the enormity of WHO we sin against, so we do not comprehend the punishment that we deserve. We sin against an infinitely worthy God, and so our punishment must match the enormity of the one whom we've sinned against.

- Now do you get a clearer picture of why God is justified to send men to hell? God is patient, long-suffering and extremely gracious towards us. But men choose to defy and rebel, despite all that God had done. I think they are still rebelling still, even when their souls are cast into hell. We cannot get a truly accurate picture of God's goodness if we do not fully understand the total depravity and wickedness of the human heart.

So what exactly are you suggesting that God drag someone into Heaven (his presents) even after that person has spent his life putting distance between himself and God? It should be evident to you that not all people Love God. So why should those who do not love God be made be with Him through out eternity?

You should put down your thirteenth century understanding of Heaven and Hell, and look at it more scripturally. Heaven is Far more than a gated community with streets of Gold where everyone lives in a mansion. Simply put Heaven is the place for those who want to be with God get to do so.

and Hell isn't a place designed for eternal torture with fire and brimstone with the devil pulling the strings..We are told Hell is a great void or a complete nothingness.
Remember out of this nothingness, God call into existence all of creation.. So if we "choose" to be with God, we choose to be apart of His creation. If we Choose not to be apart of His creation the we are sent to the only place we can possible Go that is not apart of creation, and in-turn not in the presents of God. (Because He is omnipresent)

To Choose Hell is to Choose to be away from God. Now just because Hell wasn't designed to be a torturous place that doesn't mean we won't feel great pain, nor does it mean we won't be consumed by the great void. These pains will not be because of what is in Hell, but what we take there.

I often ask If the descriptions of Heaven and Hell were somehow reversed in the past and Hell was actually paradise, but without God, and Heaven was a fiery lake, but you got to be with God would you still want to goto "Heaven" (The fiery lake?)

If you don't want to be With God no matter what that place will look like, then you truly don't want to be apart of what heaven is really all about. (Simply, a place where all who have spent this life in pursuit of a relationship with God can have one.) If you don't want to be with God then why do you want to go to Heaven? Because you fear Hell? If you got into Heaven as you are now, and found out it was like a big non stop church service, Then how long do you think before you would want to leave? Where would you Go? So how Long would you and others like you decided to live in a Heaven with God?

The Bible doesn't say How long this whole process took Lucifer and His angels to go down that road, merely that they did. How do you think you would be any different? What is your plan of salvation? How much more should God do to accommodate you?

Trying to understand two-dimensional cardboard cut-out notions of individual salvation without understanding the bigger metanarrative is going to result in a nonsense.

God made the world very good, with humanity playing a vital role in that as his image in and for the rest of creation. But human idolatory - putting something else - some created thing such as ourselves - in God's place and following our own agenda damages that. We stop playing our role properly, and we and all creation suffers. Only by returning to God and being restored can we be part of the restoration of all creation. And that is, as anyone who works at restoring relationships will tell you, is always a long and messy process with steps backwards as well as forwards.

It is not that God is not interested how we behave and what our relationships are like, it is that only by restoring our relationship with him can we begin to put right our behaviour and restore our relationships with each other to the degree necessary for a restored world where suffering is no more. God meets us where we are, but he doesn't leave us where we are.

And we need to focus on God, because when we don't we focus on something else and go badly off the rails. It's not that we worship God or we are punished by hell, it's that if we distort the worth of anything we create hell on earth. One becomes like that which one worships and we need to be like (ie the image of) God in and for the world for our own sake and for the world's sake.

Originally Posted by kingerman

He strived for equality with his creator, for the serpent said that when you eat of the fruit, your eyes would be open and you will be like God. The utter ungratefulness and wickedness of that act is clear even to us.

I sincerely can see nothing wicked or ungrateful in wanting to have knowledge equal to somebody else's. Adam and Eve's only true crime is that they didn't listen to the order not to eat from a tree. God got so mad that his order wasn't listened to, that he punished both trespassers and the whole humankind for this.

Let's look at human families. Parents are like gods, too, in the sense of having created a kid, having fed it and attended to its elementary needs while it was small. But kids aren't slaves of their parents for a lifetime, they aren't forced to worship them for being given life or the basic things for survival. Do you believe that it's wrong and kids should be lifelong slaves of their parents?

God commanded the seas that you can come so far and no more, they obey him. God commanded the stars to stay in their circles of orbits, they obey him. Christ commanded the seas and waves to be still, they obey him. Yet when God said to the man whom he had created and loved and done all that for, come to me, the man says "NO!"

I don't understand why it is bad. Man has free will, unlike seas and orbits, it's only fair that man can choose to say no. That's what free will is for, it gives you a choice, and god knew it when he was creating it. So now we choose who to follow, or we choose to follow nobody and follow our own agenda. I can't see anything that is not perfectly fine with that, and I can't see why we should be coerced into using free will in the way god wants us to use it, instead of in the way we want to use it! It ceases to be free each moment that we're faced with a hell-threat for using our will contrary to god's wishes.

we do not know the enormity of WHO we sin against, so we do not comprehend the punishment that we deserve. We sin against an infinitely worthy God, and so our punishment must match the enormity of the one whom we've sinned against.

If god cares for petty ranking, then he is not holy but of the human nature...

The Bible doesn't say How long this whole process took Lucifer and His angels to go down that road, merely that they did. How do you think you would be any different? What is your plan of salvation? How much more should God do to accommodate you?

In case god is real, the plan is simple: find out "the truth", re-evaluated it for safety, then act on your decision. I was taught that during the millenium you will somehow "know" all the truths that are hidden, so finding out the true info about god should be no problem. In case if truth can't be accessed, or turns out to be a dislikable one, join satan in a fight. There's a small chance that if enough people fight, then god wouldn't want to torture or kill so many, and would come up with a new test-plan once again.
Or, which is even better, he would finally grant people true freedom, including freedom from his own supervision. But ultimately that's the fight for the free usage of your own free will, and if you don't fight for this right then you'll be a slave for sure, there's no other choice given by god...

I think that your philosophy sees people as inanimate toys. God created toys, disliked their behavior, and decided to get rid of some. But the toys are alive in our case, it's us. The same case with human families: parents "create" an alive kid with free will to oppose their parental ways. You don't see parents sway lifelong unlimited power over their kid, they aren't free to torture it or kill it for disobedience. Such parents would be sent to prison. Why is god an exception, why is he permitted to torture or kill those who oppose his wishes? Somehow in the bible he stands above all morality, even though he is considered to be its very source.

Is there anything in the bible to justify this, to explain why it's ok for god to be angry and to wipe out all people with the Flood, or why is he justified to cause unimaginable misery to people to test their love? Just think what you'd think about a human parent if he tortured his kids to check whether they love him enough to bear the pain in silence and gratitude!

It might also help to understand that God is never angry with His children, those who have come to Christ in faith for forgiveness of sin. All His anger was directed against His own Son on the cross, and He will never again be angry with those for whom Christ died.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” . Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” , and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse”

True freedom
Everyone is in need of redemption. Our natural condition was characterized by guilt: “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” . Christ’s redemption has freed us from guilt, being “justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” .

The benefits of redemption include eternal life , forgiveness of sins , righteousness , freedom from the law’s curse , adoption into God’s family , deliverance from sin’s bondage , peace with God , and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit . To be redeemed, then, is to be forgiven, holy, justified, free, adopted, and reconciled.

Originally Posted by kingerman

It’s hard to understand why anyone would want to be an atheist. But when we realize the sin nature and its strong influence on the mind and the heart, we begin to understand where the atheist is coming from.

First off, there is no such thing as wanting to be something like an atheist. I just am. I can't be anything else. I am also an a-teapotist and a-Flying-spaghetti-monsterist, but I want to believe in the FSM, it's the most awesome thing I've heard off. How does this compute with you?

Originally Posted by kingerman

Biblically speaking, there is no such thing as an atheist.
There are liars and god haters who push the truth out of their mind but there is no such thing as atheists even though they knew Him

Are you saying that I believe in God and hate him? And that I knowingly delude myself that there is no god?

Beside all that, you still haven't answered my question on whether you believe that DNA can be used as proof for anything.

First of all FSM is a satire believed by no one. Even the so-called advocates of the FSM do not really believe that it exists.There are no technical philosophical arguments for the FSM. Actually, there are no technical arguments of any kind for the FSM.Even those who sarcastically espouse that the FSM exists don’t really believe that the FSM exists, nor do they think that the FSM is a coherent explanation for finite contingent being, logic, morality, beauty, etc.No one really believes in the FSM, but even if they did, it would not be rationally satisfying.

Romans 8:6–7 (NIV)

The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

What atheists do not realize is that Satan himself is controlling them, blinding them, and preparing their souls for hell.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Beside all that, you still haven't answered my question on whether you believe that DNA can be used as proof for anything.

Of course! Talk about the best evidence in the world for the existence of God! Actually coded sequences of instructions for the formation of life! Can we actually believe that's an accident?

Originally Posted by kingerman

First of all FSM is a satire believed by no one. Even the so-called advocates of the FSM do not really believe that it exists.There are no technical philosophical arguments for the FSM.

Ok, so for you to believe something it has to be believed by other people (argumentum ad populum), which is of course a logical fallacy. Satire is relative, I might find the Qur'an funny, but that doesn't stop their god from being real. There are the same philosophical arguments that FSM exists as are for your God. Do you not see that? It has all the characteristics. Made by people, unrealistic...

Originally Posted by kingerman

Actually, there are no technical arguments of any kind for the FSM.Even those who sarcastically espouse that the FSM exists don’t really believe that the FSM exists, nor do they think that the FSM is a coherent explanation for finite contingent being, logic, morality, beauty, etc.No one really believes in the FSM, but even if they did, it would not be rationally satisfying.

The FSM is a creator. The premise of its existence explains everything that exists. All you said doesn't explain my point. My point is that I don't choose what I believe, what I believe is chosen by my genes and environmnet, which includes my reasoning on the information I have.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Romans 8:6–7 (NIV)

The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

What atheists do not realize is that Satan himself is controlling them, blinding them, and preparing their souls for hell.

Ok so Satan is controlling me. How do I know? How can I know that you're not Satan, trying to get me to hell by making me believe in the god of the Bible? Explain this and how do you know that you aren't controlled by Satan.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Ok, so for you to believe something it has to be believed by other people (argumentum ad populum), which is of course a logical fallacy. Satire is relative, I might find the Qur'an funny, but that doesn't stop their god from being real. There are the same philosophical arguments that FSM exists as are for your God. Do you not see that? It has all the characteristics. Made by people, unrealistic...


The FSM is a creator. The premise of its existence explains everything that exists. All you said doesn't explain my point. My point is that I don't choose what I believe, what I believe is chosen by my genes and environmnet, which includes my reasoning on the information I have.

Ok so Satan is controlling me. How do I know? How can I know that you're not Satan, trying to get me to hell by making me believe in the god of the Bible? Explain this and how do you know that you aren't controlled by Satan.

Satan is the major influence on the mind-set expressed by the ideals, opinions, goals, hopes and views of the majority of people. His areas of influence also encompass the world’s philosophies, education, and commerce. The thoughts, ideas, speculations and false religions of the world are under his control and have sprung from his lies and deceptions.

You see what you did here? This is the key... as always. Your problem isn't that you cherry pick reality and the discoveries of science to support only your belief. That's just a side effect of the real "problem". You aren't capable of critical thinking. You avoid the subject which asks you of critical thinking completely.

I mean we are on a Lucid Dreaming form! The whole key in this activity is to realize that you aren't awake when you're dreaming.

Why don't you even see the possibility that you might be dreaming right now? Think critically! Ask yourself, why do you believe what you believe? Why should you believe your "feelings" or "voices from god". I said that I subscribe to an agnostic philosophy, I realize how decietful reality is and could be, especially with the limits of my existence.

Tell me this. Do you think that there is any possibility, any possiblity at all, that you might be dreaming right now?

So you believe life is a dream and that we can dream in this dream and have many fa's.I know i am not dreaming because everything is permanent my scenario doesn't change out of the blue like most dreams.

Originally Posted by kingerman

So you believe life is a dream and that we can dream in this dream and have many fa's.I know i am not dreaming because everything is permanent my scenario doesn't change out of the blue like most dreams.

How do you know you're not dreaming. Are you omniscient, are you god? Does the fact that this doesn't feel like a dream make it not a dream? If you aren't a natural lucid dreamer, then you probably know that when you dream you think you're awake even if you see unrealistic things. So how do you know that when, or if you wake up from this dream, dogs won't have six legs instead of the four we see here? Maybe you'd even laugh at the things you believed, like Christianity. I often wake up to find out I believed some impossible things while I was dreaming.

No, I don't believe this is a dream or that we have many fa's... I believe it's impossible to know something for certain. But since I can't live my life doubting everything (unless I want to be some Buddhist monk), then I will have to set some boundaries which I will call reality. This is the same reality you live in and we all seem to share. The universe governed by laws etc. This is the only "leap of faith", if you can even call it that, I will take. The leap of faith that what I'm experiencing now is very probably real. So if I call this real, then I can start to define it, figure out how it works, this is the role of science. This is where I come from. You can't tell me I'm Satan, because there is no satan in this reality, which you by the way share. Every bodies view of reality is shaped when they are young. Even mine to a point, even though I was never told anything about atheism.

Now I ask you. Do you agree with my initial points. That when you strip everything away, as Decartes also said, all you are left with is "cogito ergo sum"?

Bonsay, what is FSM?



Kingerman, I don't know how to reply to you now, because I don't feel like you addressed the issues I was writing about. I guess you're not the one to reply to each question dilligently, that makes it hard for us to converse .

I could now reply to your post, repeating the same things anew, but that would be like talking to myself.

So let me ask you to answer two definite questions:

what gives god the right to be above morality?

why can't he leave "sinners" alone but instead needs to torture them in future?

It's the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Somebody created a fake religion when creationists wanted Intelligent Design taught in school. The creator of the FSM said that he's all for the teaching of Intelligent Design, but only if they also teach the "theory of intelligent falling", which says that gravity exists because invisible noodles are pushing us against the Earth, or something to that extent. Since then it's got a lot of "followers" called pastafarians. It's all a big joke, but at the same time it shows that the religion of the FSM can be as real as any other. Here is their website: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Originally Posted by Arutad

Bonsay, what is FSM?



Kingerman, I don't know how to reply to you now, because I don't feel like you addressed the issues I was writing about. I guess you're not the one to reply to each question dilligently, that makes it hard for us to converse .

I could now reply to your post, repeating the same things anew, but that would be like talking to myself.

So let me ask you to answer two definite questions:

what gives god the right to be above morality?

why can't he leave "sinners" alone but instead needs to torture them in future?

Here are some of God’s characteristics as revealed in the Bible: God is

Just
Acts 17:31
31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

Loving
Ephesians 2:4–5

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Truthful
John 14:6

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Holy
1 John 1:5
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

God shows compassion
2 Corinthians 1:3

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

Mercy
Romans 9:15
15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Grace
Romans 5:17

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

God judges sin
Psalm 5:5

5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;

you hate all who do wrong.

but also offers forgiveness
Psalm 130:4
4 But with you there is forgiveness;

therefore you are feared.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

It's the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Somebody created a fake religion when creationists wanted Intelligent Design taught in school. The creator of the FSM said that he's all for the teaching of Intelligent Design, but only if they also teach the "theory of intelligent falling", which says that gravity exists because invisible noodles are pushing us against the Earth, or something to that extent. Since then it's got a lot of "followers" called pastafarians. It's all a big joke, but at the same time it shows that the religion of the FSM can be as real as any other. Here is their website: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Thanx. That letter is a real gem! I laughed like mad.




Kingerman,

We don't seem to be making any progress. I still can't find answers to my questions in your post. Our thinking must be so different that I can't even figure out in what way you thought your quotations would answer them.

You know, it almost sounds to me like you're talking about a father character, expecting me to feel daughterly feelings to him automatically. But in this case, I asked you many questions before, like, whether you think that it's ok for modern fathers to torture their kids and expect them to still continue loving them despite pain.