Thread: Proof for an Intelligent Creator and His purpose

According to science our universe has a beginning and time is purely physical. Therefore there can be no such thing as time external to the physical universe. Timespace has a beginning.

It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo (since timespace has a beginning); i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace.

To conclude the above paragraphs:
Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).
Ergo: There is no universe.
Fact: There is a universe.
Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect. An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged).

The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.

Anders Branderud

Anybody who thinks they can even begin to fathom the origins of the spacetime we reside in is definitely thinking highly of themselves or of sentient, intelligent beings in general. On top of that, I really, really don't think the origins of the universe were made by a character from a book written thousands of years ago by humans who didn't even know the world was round.

We've been through this argument. It's becoming exhausting.

Maybe I'll come back, maybe I won't. I'll just leave this here: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=83708

You say you have proved there is a prime cause.

You do not say how you have proved that this prime cause must have the attributes of God (for instance, conciousness) rather than being a secular natural occurence.

You make no attempt whatsoever to prove that this prime cause was the Christian God, i.e. the God recorded in the Bible, who created man and woman in the garden of Eden, was followed by Noah and Moses, and was born on Earth as Jesus, etc. etc. You have no more proved the existence of this God than you have proved the existence of Allah.

Precisely. It's nothing but a snow-job of latin phrases and incoherent arguments.

Fact: The universe exists

Speculation: The universe had a first cause (alternative; it always existed)
Speculation: This cause was a being of some kind (alternative: it was some other unknown process or means that was not a being)
Speculation: This cause was intentional
Speculation: This being has complete control over this universe
Speculation: This being has complete knowledge of this universe, or otherwise knows about Earth/Humanity
Speculation: This being cares about Humanity
Speculation: This being is perfect
Speculation: [one of the millions of proposed characteristics goes here]
Speculation: This being decided to create lots of contradictory evidence and a very badly written book to demonstrate it's existence to humanity, and one specific book is true but all others are false out of a long list of choices, and this choice has a 90% correlation with the choice of the person's parents.

Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.

Key word: known. There is a lot we don't know

Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).
Ergo: There is no universe.

Assumes universe did not always exist.
Assumes everything about the Universe is known

Your false dichotomy is highly obvious.

Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

Except you go from any prime cause to automatically assuming it's a creator of some kind. A non sequitur if we're going to use the proper language.

You didn't prove anything with your shitty logic.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

You didn't prove anything with your shitty logic.

You're a far more generous person than I am is all I'm going to say to that.

In the words of Pauli, It's not even wrong.

Anders, I agree that everything has a cause. I just don't see your argument that the cause of the universe was something with a mind.

Originally Posted by AndersBranderud

According to science our universe has a beginning and time is purely physical. Therefore there can be no such thing as time external to the physical universe. Timespace has a beginning.

Spacetime as we know it has a beginning.

Originally Posted by AndersBranderud

It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.

This is not a law; it's an assumption that has served us well.

Originally Posted by AndersBranderud

The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo (since timespace has a beginning); i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace.

The "laws of physics" as you interpret them.

Originally Posted by AndersBranderud

To conclude the above paragraphs:
Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).
Ergo: There is no universe.

invalid conclusion. The universe is not an event.

Originally Posted by AndersBranderud

Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect.

So now you're slipping in an assumption that the universe is perfect? By whos standards? The creators? Oh, well then no wonder a perfect universe requires a perfect creator.

Originally Posted by AndersBranderud

An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

How does orderly imply just? How does perfect imply or require intelligence? What is perfect again?

Originally Posted by AndersBranderud

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics)...

What does? this proof?

Originally Posted by AndersBranderud

of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets.

Wait a minute here. You're not a creationist are you?

Originally Posted by AndersBranderud

Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged).

Rig Veda is older then the torah. Neither is as old as recorded history. Are you implying that we understand the process of nuclear decay well enough to employ nuclear power but not well enough to solve a simple differential equation by naive integration?

Originally Posted by AndersBranderud

The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.

As far as I'm concerned, it's still an assumption, not a fact, that the universe is perfect. That's what you deduce a perfect creator from. Back it up. What does perfect even mean.

Originally Posted by AndersBranderud

Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).
Ergo: There is no universe.

Wat. The universe is not an event, why does it need a cause? That is like saying Evolution requires a cause. Evolution being an intangible idea, not an action which requires a cause and consequences. The fact that you are assuming that there once was nothing at all is enough to throw your whole argument out with the bathwater, but I'll continue regardless.

Fact: There is a universe.

What exactly is a universe, then?

Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

No. That is a complete bastardization of logic.

Saying "Everything has a cause, therefore The Universe must have been created by a conscious entity" is extremely fallacious. Since when has every event in the universe been caused by conscious action? The more logical choice by way of your own argument would be that the universe happened, somehow, rather than a Giant Conscious Mass happened, which then made the universe from nothing.

You can't even be sure that the two hands you used to type that message exist. How do you expect to indefinitely prove the existence of a divine creator? You may have a good idea, but you cannot know for sure. Just thought I'd point that out.

Rofl! Good one, UM.