Why Do People Think Satan/Lucifer/The Devil Reigns In Hell?

When he does NOT. Firstly, I don't believe in the bible, but it kind of irks me when people think Satan has a throne in hell and laughs at everyone burning. Hell was originally created FOR Satan and the fallen ones as a prison. God did NOT give Satan the keys to his own palace ._. I watched Constantine last night (again) and it's even clear that Hollywood perpetuates this image of this bad ass Satan running hell when the intellectual theologians will tell you that he's down there burning with the rest of 'em. Now granted he may have power slip in and out, Hell is NOT a place he likes being in.

(Eh, I know it sounds like I believe in the bible by this post but I don't...just wanted to correct that perception of Satan)

/end_rant.

hell isn't burning until it gets cast into the lake of fire from my understanding.

He doesn't have horns either, that just came from demonising Pagans...

There's a lot of stuff the Bible never says but religious branches or word of mouth created. No surprise really, what more is the Bible in the first place than a bunch of embellished events?

Personally, I don't believe in Satan or Hell. I believe those ideas were corruptions by the early Roman Catholic Church of earlier Pagan beliefs about the Goddess's cauldron of regeneration, by someone who thought reincarnation wasn't scary enough to keep the masses under control, so they upped the ante to make up a fiery place of eternal torment. It says something about those people, at that time, but is not really anything to do with God, only with humans who need power and control over others. Jesus himself predicted these things; he knew human nature.

One of the names for the Goddess at the time was Helle. They simply used her name. Much of what comes down in relgion really needs a critical eye and a knowledge of the history surrounding it, and most don't spend much time developing that, especially if they think the Bible is the only book God inspired in this whole world. God inspires my writing all the time, and that of others I'm sure as well. In any case, even the Bible doesn't do a whole lot to define either Satan or Hell.

It's kind of like what does Jesus have to do with the Easter bunny, or Christmas trees? Those are from Paganism, not Christianity, but people who wanted to convert pagans to Christianity used those things, incorporated them, in order to make Christianity more user friendly to the pagans. They even took Pagan gods and goddesses, and turned them into saints. When that didn't work, they just started burning the dissenters at the stake and such, though many burned weren't even Pagan, simply healers or people who didn't buy into the teaching without question.

Church history is very messy nasty stuff, really. Most people ignore it in preference of quoting the Bible nonstop, but that is really wearing blinders, you know? If you haven't seen "The Name of the Rose" starring Sean Connery, it's an excellent depiction of some of that history, based on the well-researched novel by the same title by Umberto Eco. Or for a much shorter read, equally well researched historically, try _Incantation_ by Alice Hoffman.

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Originally Posted by Jeff777

When he does NOT. Firstly, I don't believe in the bible, but it kind of irks me when people think Satan has a throne in hell and laughs at everyone burning. Hell was originally created FOR Satan and the fallen ones as a prison. God did NOT give Satan the keys to his own palace ._. I watched Constantine last night (again) and it's even clear that Hollywood perpetuates this image of this bad ass Satan running hell when the intellectual theologians will tell you that he's down there burning with the rest of 'em. Now granted he may have power slip in and out, Hell is NOT a place he likes being in.

(Eh, I know it sounds like I believe in the bible by this post but I don't...just wanted to correct that perception of Satan)

/end_rant.

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This also means that evil spirits can't come and torment people, because they are stuck in hell with Satan burning to never ending non death. So those people who say "i have an evil spirit in my house" are looking for attention, or completly looking at things all backwards. So if something falls off a shelf and smacks you in the face, it's not an evil spirit like they wanna think.


There also is no good vs evil fighting happening as they are trapped in non ending burning.


Satan is also not powerfull at all, he was just a normal human being who i think was the first? one down there.

Hey Jeff, thanks for this! My sister suggested that I point this out, and you beat me to it. God didn't even make Hell for humans. It was intended for Satan, and his followers (who were fallen Angels) humans followed Satan, thus are bound by the rule.

As C.S Lewis pointed out in The Screwtape letters, Satan is not equal in power to God. He is not just as bad as God is good. This is just some stuff that has been accumulated through the Church, and common stereotype.

Satan is equally as powerless as any humans/angels will be down there. It is not his dominion, it's his prison.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

Hey Jeff, thanks for this! My sister suggested that I point this out, and you beat me to it. God didn't even make Hell for humans. It was intended for Satan, and his followers (who were fallen Angels) humans followed Satan, thus are bound by the rule.

As C.S Lewis pointed out in The Screwtape letters, Satan is not equal in power to God. He is not just as bad as God is good. This is just some stuff that has been accumulated through the Church, and common stereotype.

Satan is equally as powerless as any humans/angels will be down there. It is not his dominion, it's his prison.

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Yeah, as in sinners. Sinners are Satan followers, and their reward of a bad life, is an even worse non life burning forever. I'm a sinner, and i'll always be a sinner.:banana:

That, and a punishment for choosing Satan rather than Jesus. Not being clean, you can't enter Heaven. God let his ONE and only son die, and people ignore it, and follow Satan instead.

Christians will sin too, which is why nobody can get to Heaven by themselves. Jesus sacrifice is the one and ONLY way to Heaven.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

That, and a punishment for choosing Satan rather than Jesus. Not being clean, you can't enter Heaven. God let his ONE and only son die, and people ignore it, and follow Satan instead.

Christians will sin too, which is why nobody can get to Heaven by themselves. Jesus sacrifice is the one and ONLY way to Heaven.

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If god wanted all of us to be in heaven and he loved us, no way would he allow for evolution. He would make us humans, and never have bad thoughts or a bad life or free will. We can choose whatever we want, thanks to evolution in all the years we evolved. But i am thinking as a human, and to think as a non human is not possible.

Did evolution happen? Also, who are you to judge Gods motives?

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Originally Posted by Noogah

That, and a punishment for choosing Satan rather than Jesus. Not being clean, you can't enter Heaven. God let his ONE and only son die, and people ignore it, and follow Satan instead.

Christians will sin too, which is why nobody can get to Heaven by themselves. Jesus sacrifice is the one and ONLY way to Heaven.

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So what if he let his son die, that's his problem. If he's stupid enough to make and kill his son, then why should I hail this as an achievement? If he was actually able to prove his existence, that would be a start, but no...
It's a good thing he doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

Did evolution did happen? Also, who are you to judge Gods motives?

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Yes it did. Who am I to judge God's motives? Who is God to judge us? He seems pretty retarded to me.

Satan doesn't exist in any kind of hell and Revelations support it.

Revelations 12:12 Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for my adversary is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So where is he? Right here on Earth.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Satan doesn't exist in any kind of hell and Revelations support it.

Revelations 12:12 Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for my adversary is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So where is he? Right here on Earth.

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Well that would certainly change my OP. But why did God create hell for Satan and the fallen as a prison if they're never home? Or are they awaiting final judgment to be thrown into the lake of fire?

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Originally Posted by Noogah

Did evolution did happen? Also, who are you to judge Gods motives?

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Evolution isn't an event, it is a process by which organisms change and adapt to their environment to survive. Learn this. You can hardly make points against something you have no understanding of, much less refute it.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

Did evolution did happen? Also, who are you to judge Gods motives?

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What is god to judge my motives? i'm as free as anyone, god does not judge any motives or he would not let me choose and he would have chosen for me. I would pretty much be a zombie with a few set of commands that does whatever i was programmed to do, but i am not that way. Nobody owns anybody. I am free from a programmer.

Yes evolution happened, it's still happening right as we speak, and it will probably always happen. It's taken many many years to evolve to where we are today.

I think it has to do with John's Milton Epic poem paradise lost since in fact he was the first one to call the morning star Lucifer.

We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built Here for his envy, will not drive us hence: Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce To reign is worth ambition though in Hell: Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n.
-Paradise Lost

You won't reign in Hell. I think the Bible is quite clear that you will be punished in Hell. You will be subjected to the torture. Satan doesn't invite you to reign with him, he trys to sneak you into suffering with him.

Oh, and BTW. Once we die, people won't necessarily just go to Hell right off. The souls may await until judgement day.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

You won't reign in Hell. I think the Bible is quite clear that you will be punished in Hell. You will be subjected to the torture. Satan doesn't invite you to reign with him, he trys to sneak you into suffering with him.

Oh, and BTW. Once we die, people won't necessarily just go to Hell right off. The souls may await until judgement day.

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When humans die, their brains stop working. Since consciousness is the product of your brain, it is extremely illogical to assume that you will live on somehow, given that there is no evidence or reason for this belief other than the continuation of the church.

Unless of course you have a soul. No one has ever shown how consciousness is somehow the product of your physical brain. A mass of matter, chemicals, and electricity.

No one has ever shown that a program is the product of billions of simple processes inside of a modern computer, providing of course that you discard all evidence leading to this and instead substitute this idea with the idea that a computer program is the metaphysical projection of a force outside of reality that interacts with the computer. The idea is not only baseless, but shows general ignorance in the area of logical thinking.

I mean, which is more likely -> The earth was created by aliens, or, that the earth formed in the disc of dust that surrounded the young sun? Which is more likely, that the pyramids at giza were created by a superbeing that visited earth and decided to waste a monstrous amount of energy performing such a feat, or that over many years, the pyramids were contructed by thousands of individual egyptians.

As someone stated before, theories aren't proven, they are supported. Souls are not supported at all.

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Originally Posted by A Roxxor

When humans die, their brains stop working. Since consciousness is the product of your brain, it is extremely illogical to assume that you will live on somehow, given that there is no evidence or reason for this belief other than the continuation of the church.

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Those NDE's like Pam Reynolds say otherwise. There wont need to be an aware project if this was an open and shut case. It's a debatable case as to what happens.

So it's been proven that you can come back to life after your brain has completely shut down?

A computer can think, but it does not have awareness. That's my point. No, it hasn't been proven, but it's a pretty good idea to say that there is a little more to humans than matter, chemicals, and electricity.

I said it's debatable, and things like Pam Reynolds story should not be left ignored. The whole aware project is being done for a reason, to find out once and for all if this is trick of the mind, or some type of outside perception like Pam Reynolds story suggests.

Maybe. Personally I think she was reliving what little bits of information her sensory perception had received before she went comatose. Also, it is good to note that all skin cells are light-sensitive, and the immense strain on the brain may have caused it to create imagery that didn't exist, or was a contortion of what really was. There is also the problem of personal bias and exaggeration.

It is certainly interesting, but doesn't necessarily point to anything metaphysical as all the things she experienced were physical and comprehensible to her.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

A computer can think, but it does not have awareness. That's my point. No, it hasn't been proven, but it's a pretty good idea to say that there is a little more to humans than matter, chemicals, and electricity.

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Humans can think. It is because of this that they are aware. To claim that there is an unseen dimension to existence that controls reality is absurd and baseless and warrants being ignored and doubted.

By the way, chemicals are made of matter, which is a form of energy.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

That, and a punishment for choosing Satan rather than Jesus. Not being clean, you can't enter Heaven. God let his ONE and only son die, and people ignore it, and follow Satan instead.

Christians will sin too, which is why nobody can get to Heaven by themselves. Jesus sacrifice is the one and ONLY way to Heaven.

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You sure? Because I found a back door

It is hilarious that 99% of Christians don't even uderstand their own mythology.

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Originally Posted by Jeff777

Well that would certainly change my OP. But why did God create hell for Satan and the fallen as a prison if they're never home? Or are they awaiting final judgment to be thrown into the lake of fire?

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Actually Jeff you've hit the nail on the coffin. That's exactly what's going on, they are merely just waiting around for final judgement to be ousted into the lake of fire, which is the 2nd and final death (A Death with no hopes of return) When we die we experience a 1st death. Every single person no matter what they've done wrong who has died, will have the opportunity to come back through the 1st and 2nd ressurrections as mentioned in Revelation. Judgement day is the real test. Fail Judgement day, and cease to exist for time indefinite. Also God never created a hell. The hell that's mentioned in the Bible is symbolic and most of the times it's interperted wrong. The original Hebrew word used to describe it is 'Sheol' Which translates into 'Grave'. The Lake of Fire and any mentions of Hell are two entirely different scenario's where one will exist and one has never existed.

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

It is hilarious that 99% of Christians don't even uderstand their own mythology.

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How could you when everything seems to change over time?

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Actually Jeff you've hit the nail on the coffin. That's exactly what's going on, they are merely just waiting around for final judgement to be ousted into the lake of fire, which is the 2nd and final death (A Death with no hopes of return) When we die we experience a 1st death. Every single person no matter what they've done wrong who has died, will have the opportunity to come back through the 1st and 2nd ressurrections as mentioned in Revelation. Judgement day is the real test. Fail Judgement day, and cease to exist for time indefinite. Also God never created a hell. The hell that's mentioned in the Bible is symbolic and most of the times it's interperted wrong. The original Hebrew word used to describe it is 'Sheol' Which translates into 'Grave'. The Lake of Fire and any mentions of Hell are two entirely different scenario's where one will exist and one has never existed.

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You can live a life of giving and not recieving, like giving to charity or people in need and never asking anyone for anything in return except the stuff you need to stay alive of course and you would still go to hell all because you can still be a sinner in the words of the bible. That's pretty harsh!

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

You can live a life of giving and not recieving, like giving to charity or people in need and never asking anyone for anything in return except the stuff you need to stay alive of course and you would still go to hell all because you can still be a sinner in the words of the bible. That's pretty harsh!

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Actually that's inaccurate, when your time runs out. You're simply just going to check out just like everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Bonsay

So what if he let his son die, that's his problem. If he's stupid enough to make and kill his son, then why should I hail this as an achievement? If he was actually able to prove his existence, that would be a start, but no...
It's a good thing he doesn't exist.


Yes it did. Who am I to judge God's motives? Who is God to judge us? He seems pretty retarded to me.

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uuummm he let his son die 4 u. 4 me 4 everyone.
because it was neccessary so that we could join him when we died.
it is the beautiful thing of grace. all u have to do is accept it, and ask for forgiveness.
yeah we all make mistakes. i make huge ones. i mess up every day at least 20 times. i cuss, i lust, i treat others badly, i do it all. im human... so u can not believe in him, thats your choice...

personally though... i dont believe that there is necessarily a lake o' fire.... i think it is just symbolism of pain. my new thought courtesy of chase. revelations is all about symbolism, so that is my interpretation for it...

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Originally Posted by aorozco

personally though... i dont believe that there is necessarily a lake o' fire.... i think it is just symbolism of pain. my new thought courtesy of chase. revelations is all about symbolism, so that is my interpretation for it...

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That's pretty interesting. Ask chase how does he explain the sensation of pain if your body is decomposed.

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Originally Posted by Noogah

Did evolution happen?

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Vatican seems to think so, now! :banana: Not that the Vatican's opinion should matter, but there ya go!

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Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Vatican seems to think so, now! :banana: Not that the Vatican's opinion should matter, but there ya go!

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:chuckle:

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Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

That's pretty interesting. Ask chase how does he explain the sensation of pain if your body is decomposed.

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lol. I explain it this way, (i forget how he put it) pretty much, revelations contains a plethera of symbolic things. think about it, god is everything good, love, peace, like everything good. what if there was none of him. there would be no good, only bed. the simple act of god's non prescence is agony, evil... thus pain. just my opinion i gues...

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Originally Posted by aorozco

uuummm he let his son die 4 u. 4 me 4 everyone.
because it was neccessary so that we could join him when we died.
it is the beautiful thing of grace. all u have to do is accept it, and ask for forgiveness.
yeah we all make mistakes. i make huge ones. i mess up every day at least 20 times. i cuss, i lust, i treat others badly, i do it all. im human... so u can not believe in him, thats your choice...

personally though... i dont believe that there is necessarily a lake o' fire.... i think it is just symbolism of pain. my new thought courtesy of chase. revelations is all about symbolism, so that is my interpretation for it...

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I just can't accept the fact an infinitely powerful being is limited. You don't need to make and kill your son for any reason if you're allpowerful. I will not ask for forgiveness for something I cannot be held responsible, especially from some being which actually is responsible. I didn't decide that I would exist. If god made me than he's responsible for my actions. Even if that means he decides to make me suffer eternally, then so be it, just don't make him look as if he is some beacon of goodness. And the same goes for anyone who eagerly awaits heaven while believing in hell.

If you lust, cuss, etc. I don't see it as some objective act of free will. There are a bunch of reasons for our actions like socialization, instincts, it's all natural as far as I'm concerned. I've got enough evidence to deduce we emerge from the processes in our brains. Therefore I cannot accept or even chose a belief like the Christian one. I am what I am and I can't be anything else. So it's just sad that other peoples' beliefs manage to spill into reality so we get things like religious violence, intolerance etc.

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Originally Posted by Bonsay

I just can't accept the fact an infinitely powerful being is limited. You don't need to make and kill your son for any reason if you're allpowerful. I will not ask for forgiveness for something I cannot be held responsible, especially from some being which actually is responsible. I didn't decide that I would exist. If god made me than he's responsible for my actions. Even if that means he decides to make me suffer eternally, then so be it, just don't make him look as if he is some beacon of goodness. And the same goes for anyone who eagerly awaits heaven while believing in hell.

If you lust, cuss, etc. I don't see it as some objective act of free will. There are a bunch of reasons for our actions like socialization, instincts, it's all natural as far as I'm concerned. I've got enough evidence to deduce we emerge from the processes in our brains. Therefore I cannot accept or even chose a belief like the Christian one. I am what I am and I can't be anything else. So it's just sad that other peoples' beliefs manage to spill into reality so we get things like religious violence, intolerance etc.

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i completely understand where you are coming from. i was there and still am there in a way. i will always do things i shouldn't do. and alot of them are natural things so it is very hard to accept almost any religion, where you are told you have to give up those "sins"
i will still keep trying because, heck ,it is something i believe in. and if i am wrong, then so be it, but i personally don't think i am. (not that i am all knowing...) *coughs lightly*

Ne-yo speaks true. "Hell" is simply the "common grave of all mankind". A fiery place of torment is against God's nature and it simply does not exist. New Testament writers used hyperbole when speaking of "hell" and the nashing of teeth etc.

"The wages sin pays is death". When we die, our debt is paid- period. It's the love God and Jesus have for us that brings us back in the resurrection. And it's the final judgement that determines if you have everlasting life or everlasting destruction.

I know it's somewhat blasphemous to think such ways, lol, but because of my background, I tend to think of God in "magickal" ways (and some scientific ways as well). Holy Spirit isn't a separate person or another part of a "godhead" but his active force (or "magick").
And like a super computer, he's able to store the DNA and personal information of everyone ever alive. In the resurrection, he recreates our body using that information.
God is also governed by certain qualities: wisdom, justice, love, power.

When Adam sacrificed his perfect life to sin, a similar (perfect) sacrifice was required to redeem his offspring. That's why Jesus had to die. Jesus was the first of God's creation and the things Jesus loved most was mankind. He lived for an unknown period of time with God in heaven before being born. He willing knew what he was getting into and accepted the role.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Actually that's inaccurate, when your time runs out. You're simply just going to check out just like everyone else.

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Well...to the bible you will be judged on how you did in life according to the bible, and if you sinned and did not follow the bible even if you did charity and wanted nothing in return you will get a belt to the ass and sent to the dark underworld where you will await your never ending punishment. You can live a life of selflessness but if it does not go with the bible you're screwed. If hell exists there has to be an infinite amount of souls, or hell does not work. You can;t die and be sent to hell forever, then after forever come back and redo life, then get sent to hell again if you did not follow the bible a 2nd time, or 3rd, or however many times you have lived. If there is no infinite souls, then there is no hell.

As for what really happens, who knows. It;s one of the biggest mysteries in the world and will probably always be a mystery untill it happens to you.

IF you believe in hell and in people having an immortal spirit within them...
But where in the creation account does it mention God creating such a place? And why did God tell Adam that if he sinned he would return to the dust from which he was made? God said nothing about such a Hell and neither did he say Adam and Eve would go to Heaven. Earth was meant for people. Adam and Eve weren't supposed to die.

When people are resurrected, they will be brought to perfection during a thousand years. They'll become as Adam and Eve had been before they sinned. After that 1,000 years, the Bible says that Satan and his demons would be freed from the abyss "for a time". Perfect mankind will have the chance to either side with God or Satan.
Those who fail that test will experience everlasting death. And at that time "hell will be swallowed up" and "death will be no more".

I agree- there is no fiery hell of torment. And from what I've read of Ne-yo's posts, neither does he.

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Originally Posted by Xei

really, what more is the Bible in the first place than a bunch of embellished events stories written to teach and give an example of how to live as a good, kind, loving person; the aesop's fables of life, not at all intended to be taken literally as it is?

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if anyone is familiar with animistic belief systems there exists a sort of hell and heaven...upperworld and lowerworld...upperworld is where a person's 'essence' goes to the canopy of the tree of life to await rebirth, the lowerworld is where malevolance and "evil" exists...this is the popular destination for spirit healers as it is believed that when a person is sick part of their "soul" is stuck in the lower world and the shaman must journey there to find it in order to heal the person...I entertain these ideas though from a strictly metaphoric view point

satan/lucifer/devil/"evil" needs to exist to legitamize god/"good"

Satanism is a poke at christianity..there is no diety other than oneself in this belief system.