Can god create a rock so big...

[Noogah]

In this short topic,I will state my answer to the question:Can God create a rock so big he couldn't lift it? I would also like any creationists to offer their own explanations. Atheists, feel free to debate any answers, but please don't make this another Creationism vs. Evolution thread. Let's stay on topic. This question has stumped people for a long time, but it's really quite silly in my book. Firt of all, God is not a physical being. This question is extremely limited in it's understanding. God made the physical realm, and all the laws in it. He himself is a spiritual being, and does not use a physical body. In my beliefs however, he could create a large rock, and a human body too weak to lift the rock. He could then enter the body, and attempt to lift the rock using physical strength, and be physically unable to do so. However, at the same time, I beleive he could leave the body, and create a stronger one, enter it, and lift the rock. The question assumes that God is boud by physical rules. He isn't; except when he is a physical being. However, even then he could change the laws. But assuming that God would play by his own rules, yes. I beleieve God could create a rock to big for a physical manefistation of himself to lift. But that dies not make him a limited entity.

[Universal Mind]

I beleieve God could create a rock to big for a physical manefistation of himself to lift. But that dies not make him a limited entity. It makes God a limited entity if there is such thing as a rock he cannot lift. My answer to the question (in the hypothetical scenario that God exists and is omnipotent): Yes. God could create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it, and he would be able to lift it. That statement contradicts itself, right? Exactly. The concept of omnipotence contradicts itself.

[DrunkenArse]

I love how you say "creationists" and "atheists" without considering the fact that there are christians that don't believe in that literal interpretation of the bible, creationist drivel. As I said elsewhere, there is no creationist vs. evolution debate. It's settled science. It's just that some people that understand evolution can be bothered to tell creationists what ignorant morons they are. Think of it as a favor. Don't bring it up and you wont hear about it.

[Noogah]

Forgive the misspellings. I'm on my iPod touch.

[Noogah]

I love how you say "creationists" and "atheists" without considering the fact that there are christians that don't believe in that literal interpretation of the bible, creationist drivel. As I said elsewhere, there is no creationist vs. evolution debate. It's settled science. It's just that some people that understand evolution can be bothered to tell creationists what ignorant morons they are. Think of it as a favor. Don't bring it up and you wont hear about it. It's more like you guys get so inconfident, you throw unnecessary insults to perfectly good meaning people. There is a debate, wether you like it or not, and I've heard both sides say some good points.

[Noogah]

It makes God a limited entity if there is such thing as a rock he cannot lift. My answer to the question (in the hypothetical scenario that God exists and is omnipotent): Yes. God could create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it, and he would be able to lift it. That statement contradicts itself, right? Exactly. The concept of omnipotence contradicts itself. He is not his physical body. It is the body he makes that is limited, not himself. How is that so hard to understand? The concept of omnipotence does not contradict itself. People keep saying it does, but they never say how.

[DrunkenArse]

It's more like you guys get so inconfident, you throw unnecessary insults to perfectly good meaning people. There is a debate, wether you like it or not, and I've heard both sides say some good points. Inconfident my ass. And I don't insult either. Telling an ignorant person that they're ignorant isn't insulting them, it's informing them. There's a huge difference. You can fix ignorant. All you have to do is study something with an open mind. To the extent that it can be considered verbally abusive, it's well asked for because your ignorant and backwards beliefs deserve to be ridiculed and marginalized.

[Invader]

An "unstoppable force" and an immovable object cannot exist in the same universe. Their existences would contradict the other, much in the way that UM already stated (minus omnipotence, I'm not sure how that was supposed to be tied to his point).

[Replicon]

Can God create a human whose will he is unable to control?

[Alric]

An "unstoppable force" and an immovable object cannot exist in the same universe. It can, if they are both the same object. Which is what some people think god is. He can move any object and nothing can stop him. However even if nothing can move you, you can move yourself. And even if nothing can stop you, you can stop yourself. When you think about it like that, it makes sense that he can be both. It just becomes silly when you think it in a way such as, "Can god slap himself so hard that he moves?" Obviously its just a silly question.

[FortressForever]

I googled this question a long time ago to find out what people thought of it and found what I believe to be a very good answer. Just to be clear, i did not write this. The author is Gregory Koukl. Here is a link to where i found it. http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5160 This is known as a pseudo-question. It’s like asking, “Can God win an arm wrestling match against Himself?” or, “If God beat Himself up, who would win?” or, “Can God’s power defeat His own power?” The question is nonsense because it treats God as if He were two instead of one. The phrase “stronger than” can only be used when two subjects are in view, for example, Bill is stronger than Bob, my left arm is stronger than my right arm, etc. Since God is only one, and since He has no parts, it makes no sense to ask if He is stronger than Himself. That’s why this is a pseudo-question. It proves nothing about any deficiency in God because the question itself is incoherent. This pits one aspect of God’s ability against another--in this case, His creative ability against His ability to lift. The goal is to show that there are some things God can’t do, thus undermining the Christian concept of an omnipotent Creator. This illustration, however, miscasts the biblical notion of omnipotence, and is therefore guilty of the straw man fallacy. Omnipotence doesn’t mean that God can do anything. The concept of omnipotence has to do with power, not ability per se. In fact, there are many things God can’t do. He can’t make square circles. He can’t create a morally free creature who couldn’t choose evil. He can’t instantly create a sixty-year-old man (not one that looks sixty, but one that is sixty). None of these, though, have to do with power. Instead, they are logically contradictory, and therefore contrary to God’s rational nature. The “Can God make a rock so big He can’t lift it?” challenge is no threat to Christian theism

[Universal Mind]

He is not his physical body. It is the body he makes that is limited, not himself. How is that so hard to understand? The concept of omnipotence does not contradict itself. People keep saying it does, but they never say how. We never say how? I think you need to take another look at my post you quoted, for one thing. If God is infinitely powerful, then HE CAN... DO ANYTHING. Therefore, he can... make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it. Do you see what I am saying? He can... come in the form of a body that is not limited. He can... make the rock so heavy he cannot lift it. He can... lift that same rock. He can... DO ANYTHING. Are you with me so far? Okay, did you catch the contradiction? He can... create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it AND lift the rock. That is a contradiction, and it is what is involved in infinite power. Therefore, the concept of infinite power contradicts itself. This is known as a pseudo-question. It’s like asking, “Can God win an arm wrestling match against Himself?” or, “If God beat Himself up, who would win?” or, “Can God’s power defeat His own power?” The phrase “stronger than” can only be used when two subjects are in view Then what God can do is limited. He is therefore not infinitely powerful. The Bible says he is.

[Alric]

The bible says no such thing. You are just making that up. Whenever the bible talks about god being all powerful, they speak of it in the context that FortressForever just explained.

[Universal Mind]

Gen. 18:14 Nothing is too hard for the Lord. Job 42:2 God can do everything. Matt. 19:26 All things are possible with God. Lk. 1:37 Nothing is impossible for God.

[Alric]

Clearly you didn't even read my reply on the post FortressForever made. Since all the quotes mean exactly what we said, and not a single one says he is 'infinitely powerful' in the context you are speaking of.

[Universal Mind]

Clearly you didn't even read my reply on the post FortressForever made. Since all the quotes mean exactly what we said, and not a single one says he is 'infinitely powerful' in the context you are speaking of. Do you understand what the word "nothing" means? Do you understand what the word "everything" means? Do you understand what the word "all" means? They don't leave room for exceptions, and no exceptions are stated in those verses. This is an open and shut case.

[Alric]

No one talks like that, and neither does the bible. No where does it ever say, or imply that god can do self contradicting things that you are claiming should be possible. Like they pointed out, God can't be stronger than himself. It is a statement which doesn't make any sense. So by asking if god can be stronger than himself, you are really not asking anything at all. No where does it say in the bible, that god is more powerful than himself. Only that he is the most powerful being in the world and that he can do anything. Yes, it says he can do anything. But what you are saying isn't anything, it is nothing. You asked me, if I knew what the word nothing means but it seems like perhaps you do not. Can god do something that doesn't exist? No because its nothing. It is not there. God can do all things. For something to fit under the category of 'all' it has to be something that exist. if it doesn't exist it is not including under all things. The same applies to everything. Omnipotent: having or exercising exclusive and unlimited authority. Almighty: having very great power, influence, All-powerful: having or exercising exclusive and unlimited authority; omnipotent. Three things used to describe him, and none of them say what you are claiming they say. You are using very select, narrow definitions that are not commonly used in English. What I just put up there, is what everyone thinks when they say the words. And none of them imply a self contradicting being. You can be both all powerful, and still not be able to created a rock you can't lift. Since there is no such thing, and its just gibberish.

[♥Mark]

"God can do all things. For something to fit under the category of 'all' it has to be something that exist. if it doesn't exist it is not including under all things. The same applies to everything." The universe didn't exist before god created it. Apparently he can bring things into existence, so this is not a restriction. Wouldn't it make more sense just to say that god isn't all powerful and can't do things which make no sense?

[Universal Mind]

The universe didn't exist before god created it. Apparently he can bring things into existence, so this is not a restriction. Wouldn't it make more sense just to say that god isn't all powerful and can't do things which make no sense? What he said.

[Noogah]

We never say how? I think you need to take another look at my post you quoted, for one thing. If God is infinitely powerful, then HE CAN... DO ANYTHING. Therefore, he can... make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it. Do you see what I am saying? He can... come in the form of a body that is not limited. He can... make the rock so heavy he cannot lift it. He can... lift that same rock. He can... DO ANYTHING. Are you with me so far? Okay, did you catch the contradiction? He can... create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it AND lift the rock. That is a contradiction, and it is what is involved in infinite power. Therefore, the concept of infinite power contradicts itself. Then what God can do is limited. He is therefore not infinitely powerful. The Bible says he is. Okay. Let me try once more. Two physical bodies. One cannot. One can. God can do anything, but canalso reduce himself in the physical realm so he can't. So technically, in this single scenario, for a limited amount of time, the physical body that God created is unable to do so. Yes. But does that mean that he is now disabled for eternity? No. You have enough flour to bake anything. Take away to much, and you can't bake anything. Put it back, and you can. It isn't a perfect analogy, but it's the closest I can come up with while drowsily lying in my bed at 1:54 A.M

[Black_Eagle]

God is so omnipotent that he can both create a rock so big that he cannot lift it while at the same time not being able to lift it.

[Noogah]

Inconfident my ass. And I don't insult either. Telling an ignorant person that they're ignorant isn't insulting them, it's informing them. There's a huge difference. You can fix ignorant. All you have to do is study something with an open mind. To the extent that it can be considered verbally abusive, it's well asked for because your ignorant and backwards beliefs deserve to be ridiculed and marginalized. Excuse me, but how old are you? If you've finished a 4th education, you should now know the difference between opinion, and fact. FYI, I was once very open minded. Surveyed the books, and made up my mind. I am open minded in many aspects. But as far as the earths origins go, yes. I'm closed to that. However, it is only your opinion that I am ignorant. Therefore, you have no business saying "your ignorant!!" Now, you can say "I think your ignorant, and this is why. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah etc." Also, your getting rather aggresive and protective, and this is a sign of inconfidence. Me, the only reason I care beans about wether you beleive my theory is because I beleive you are in danger. If I did not beleieve you were in danger, trust me. My debating days would have been over long ago. I don't have time for immaturity. Say somthing scientific in your next post, and I will attend to it. If you continue braying about how stupid I am, as are all creationists(your opinion) you will be ignored.

[Alric]

It doesn't really matter. There are three ways you can put it. God is so powerful that he can indeed make a rock he can't lift and also lift it. The question doesn't make any sense, so doesn't matter. Or god is just extremely powerful, and was strong enough to create the world and all in it yet at the same time isn't infinitely powerful. You can be a christian and believe any three of them, and their all valid. The problem I am having with Universal Mind is that he claims the first makes no sense, he simply ignores the second and won't comment on it, and says the bible rules out the third(which it doesn't). If there is a god, all three are possible and are logical. I have yet to hear a reason, why all three are totally impossible.

[Universal Mind]

I gave you Bible quotes that mention nothing about exceptions. I don't know what else to tell you. Here, here's Abba. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctzIEjjOfd4

[ifuturist]

Thank you for this thread and for proving that the question is an absolute farce. It's a word game used to try and confuse people in their beliefs because there are some strange and very vain people who demand that absolutely no one be allowed believe in God. God or no God, it's wrong to try and trick people out of their faith simply because for whatever the reason, YOU don't want them to have it. It stems from nothing but selfishness and arrogance.