Thread: why does someone in full reason..

That's easy, because its drilled into their heads when they are too young to realise how ridiculous it is. Once it's in there its often a hard thing for a person to change what they view as an integral part of their world view.

Peace
Ethics
Power
War
Unity
Salvation


Those are the reasons, and it only took the slightest bit of imagination. If you
have trouble understanding why I used any of those terms, I'll clarify. I'm sure
there are more.

It seems you haven't bothered to look at both sides of the story. Allow me to explain in the simplest terms possible.

Religion is meant to be used as a tool. A tool to give people peace of mind. A tool to give their lives purpose. Without it, many people would be committing suicide left and right. Some of us, believe it or not, don't want to believe the retarded nihilist philosophy that there is no point in existing, that our awareness is nothing to be held sacred and will go kaput when we die.

Now before I say anything else, let me make a comparison.

Guns are meant to be used as tools. Tools to give people an easy way to hunt for food. Tools to give people the power to defend themselves from those of violent intent.

Now why did I make that comparison?

Guns tend to be misused.

So does religion.

A gangster gets a hold of a gun and, instead of using it for its original purposes of hunting and self-defense etc., decides to use it for killing innocents in drive-by shootings.

A preacher gets a hold of a bible/koran/etc. and, instead of using it for the purpose of spreading the word of peace and goodwill for all, decides to use it to twist the words of sacred texts to fool the ignorant masses into discriminating against others.

Because guns are misused, many people want them banned completely. But can you really say that guns themselves are evil, just because some idiots don't know how to use them properly?

And because religion is misused, many atheists are bitter and hateful toward the religious. But can you really say that religion is evil, just because some idiots deliberately misinterpret holy texts?

Hopefully that gives you something to think about.

Also comfort and a crutch in life for those that need it, an attempt to bring meaning and stability to an otherwise chaotic and meaningless existence.

edit: beat me to my points lezen, hard to type on an iPod =)

Guns are not evil and neither is religion, but the world would be better off without either of them.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Why does someone in full reason believe in God/have a religion? I simply cannot understand it.


-- If you're not gonna propose an answer, simply don't post. I will ignore bashing.

Are you presuming that full reason always leads to the same belief..?

~

Why does someone in full reason not believe in God/not have a religion? I simply cannot understand it.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

I am an Animalia Chordata Mammalia Primates Hominidae Homo Sapiens Sapiens. I am a human. Every one of my direct ancestors from the first naked, replicating nucleic acid to my parents managed to survive and reproduce. If that realization doesn't give me faith in myself, I don't know what possibly could.

.

Originally Posted by Lëzen

It seems you haven't bothered to look at both sides of the story. Allow me to explain in the simplest terms possible.

Religion is meant to be used as a tool. A tool to give people peace of mind. A tool to give their lives purpose. Without it, many people would be committing suicide left and right. Some of us, believe it or not, don't want to believe the retarded nihilist philosophy that there is no point in existing, that our awareness is nothing to be held sacred and will go kaput when we die.

'Purpose' is man-made. Some things we create are made with a purpose in mind, others are not. Regarding things we didn't make, it's neither, 'purpose' does not apply to those. What's the purpose of a rock?

Humanity gives a purpose to it's gods, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by Lëzen

Religion is meant to be used as a tool. A tool to give people peace of mind. A tool to give their lives purpose. Without it, many people would be committing suicide left and right.

The Hell aspect of Christianity scared the ever living bejesus out of me when I was a kid, like age 8 to 16. It gave me the opposite of peace of mind. The most peace of mind I ever had in life was when I was 0-4 years old and did not really know what God was supposed to be. (The reasons go beyond that, of course.) I went to Sunday school and church in those years, but all I knew was that we colored pretty pictures in Sunday school and listened to some asshole yelling about who knows what in church.

Being an atheist is what prevented me from committing suicide during two different horrbile depressions long ago. I kept thinking about how there would be absolutely nothing if I ended my life. That kept me alive. If I had thought I would go to Heaven, I would have gone through with suicide.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

What's the purpose of a rock?

To throw at homosexuals and adulterers... in some religious cultures

Originally Posted by Invader

Peace
Ethics
Power
War
Unity
Salvation

I disagree with this list because they are only applicable once you believe in god and are unnecessary to maintaining belief after you do. Can you explain further?

And the purpose of a rock is to be used as an example of something that has no purpose.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Are you presuming that full reason always leads to the same belief..?

~

Not really the same belief but the same disbelief. Just like full reason leads people into not believing Santa Claus. Also, level of instruction, wealth, and many other factors have 0.9 correlation to atheism. So yes, you kind of know what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by Invader

Peace
Ethics
Power
War
Unity
Salvation


Those are the reasons, and it only took the slightest bit of imagination. If you
have trouble understanding why I used any of those terms, I'll clarify. I'm sure
there are more.

Peace? Not really, atheists are statistically less aggressive than theists.

Ethics, exactly the same. Atheists statistically have stricter ethics than theists.

Power and war, yes, of course, just like any other form of ideology put on people. Notice, though, that I'm not discussing why religion exists, but why reasonable people believe in it.

Salvation? It's not like you need salvation when you don't believe it. You know, circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because...

Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

Why does someone in full reason not believe in God/not have a religion? I simply cannot understand it.

If you don't have a potential answer for me, don't post. Also, using a smiley thing doesn't mean you won the 3rd World War or something. A real, reasonable discussion is not made of "got-ya"s. But oh well, I am I even...

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

To throw at homosexuals and adulterers... in some religious cultures

Fire... fire is always better. Burn them; rocks are too harmless.

There was a time I made an honest attempt at reading it and studying it... and despite that, it all just seemed too silly to me. I couldn't bring myself to actually believe what I was reading. It was like I was reading a story, and not any kind of Biography of Earth or anything like that.

I can't see how people believe it either. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I can understand why I myself believed it when I was 10yo, I seriously can. I just can't let myself believe I was smarter as a 12yo (when I stopped believing in a god) than people are on their 40s. C'mon, if only religion was at least remotely plausible. I can understand people from 1900 believing it, because science didn't explain as much as it does today, but shit, we are in 2009 -- get real.


I've been asking this question to everyone I know. The only one who dared to answer me said "it's because belief is above reason", which isn't really an answer to my paradigm.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I can understand why I myself believed it when I was 10yo, I seriously can. I just can't let myself believe I was smarter as a 12yo (when I stopped believing in a god) than people are on their 40s. C'mon, if only religion was at least remotely plausible. I can understand people from 1900 believing it, because science didn't explain as much as it does today, but shit, we are in 2009 -- get real.


I've been asking this question to everyone I know. The only one who dared to answer me said "it's because belief is above reason", which isn't really an answer to my paradigm.

Maybe the question you are asking has no possible correct answer, because your premise is faulty. How do you define "full reason"?

Full reason, as in, a human being that is capable of thinking and using his intelligence for the sake of making conclusions. By 'full reason' I mean the full experience and intelligence of an adult.

Maybe it isn't my premise that's false. Maybe people actually aren't as smart as they seem swear to be.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I've been asking this question to everyone I know. The only one who dared to answer me said "it's because belief is above reason", which isn't really an answer to my paradigm.

I think that that's one of the most honest answers you're going to get.

Also, people like to feel special. And the older you get, the more you realize just how stupid most people really are. We are apes after all. If it wasn't for the types of people that, in 2009, are athiest/agnostics that accept evolution, we would still be sleeping in caves. straight up. The rest of them just tag along and get nuclear weapons, twinkies and american idol out of the deal.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I can understand why I myself believed it when I was 10yo, I seriously can. I just can't let myself believe I was smarter as a 12yo (when I stopped believing in a god) than people are on their 40s. C'mon, if only religion was at least remotely plausible. I can understand people from 1900 believing it, because science didn't explain as much as it does today, but shit, we are in 2009 -- get real.


I've been asking this question to everyone I know. The only one who dared to answer me said "it's because belief is above reason", which isn't really an answer to my paradigm.

Believing in god or not has nothing to do with how smart you are. You are stupid for thinking that.

I don't believe in a god, but I can view from other peoples' perspectives.... try learning how to do that, instead of being bubbled up in your own little world.

Do you honestly believe that you are going to get any serious responses in this thread when most of your posts either directly or indirectly insult the intelligence of anyone who might have an answer before they even get a chance?

Perhaps there is a correlation between your lack of belief and your inability to see things from differing perspectives.

I suppose that it could appear that I am guilty of that too so I'll respond. The thing is that I see all sorts of things from all sorts of perspectives. Politics for example. I can sit down and agree with a libertarian about a lot of things. I can sit down with somebody from the green party and agree with them about a lot of other things. Where I don't agree with either one, I can still see where they are coming from and respect their intelligence. Music is another example. Art of all types. What tastes good. What woman looks pretty or what clothes look nice. All of these things are subjective.

Issues of evolution vs creationism are not one of those things. There's just no room for it. Anybody that refuses to accept evolution driven largely by natural selection is some combination of ignorant, stupid and deluded. Maybe not all three, but some combination of them. Straight up. I can not think of ONE intelligent person that I have ever met that buys into "Intelligent Design". When they ask for "evidence against it" i bite my tongue to not tell them to look in a mirror.

These are the people that threatened to kill galileo. He was one of the greatest humans ever to live and they made him recant his theories to save his life. He must have died a little bit on the inside. Reason does have its limits. It has all sorts of limits. It is fallible in many ways. It is useless for love for instance. But where it is valid, it is by its nature, surpreme over all other forms of thought. The domain of science is where science can go and still be science. By its very nature, this is so. So when religious people claim that i'm an asshole because i don't respect their feelings, I say that they are naive for expecting their feelings to be respected. You don't 'feel' differently about evolution. You think about it well or you don't. 'Feelings' have no place where reason is king. I don't care what you 'feel' about evolution and you shouldn't care what I 'feel' about it. You should listen to the facts or GTFO. period.

Who said anything about evolution or creationism? The question was about the belief in god or holding any religion. Are you sure you are capable of seeing other perspectives?

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

I disagree with this list because they are only applicable once you believe in god and are unnecessary to maintaining belief after you do. Can you explain further?

I should have been more clear. I believe that people generate a belief in God/religion
when they feel that a lack of one of the items on my list and attribute it to their lack of believe
in a God/religion. Let's use the salvation one, since that's the most obscure. People can
feel damned, so to speak. People can feel as if everything in the world goes wrong
for them, and they could end up thinking that it was because they did not surrender to
some higher power. Those who suffer from lack of peace may be similar. Those who
suffer from being on the bottom all the time (a lack of power) might suddenly believe that
appealing to a higher authority would grant them that edge over others. It's the lack
of peace/power/unity/whatever that might enable one to believe in a god. Does that
make any sense? I'm not sure what kind of reasoning that is, I figure it has a name.

That should also clear a bit up for Kromoh.
I should also say that I feel the original question was phrased terribly. I don't think
answered the question according to the way Kromoh is rephrasing it further down the
thread.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Who said anything about evolution or creationism? The question was about the belief in god or holding any religion. Are you sure you are capable of seeing other perspectives?

The two are intimately related or religion wouldn't be shoving its grimy hands where they don't belong and spreading lies (purposefully preserving ignorance!!!!!!! and then tell me that I'm a sinner?!?!) over questions that can now be answered by science. Science kills the need for religion to answer questions about the physical world which kills its believability. This is the path that the church started when they turned on galileo.

I explicitly said that i do not see other perspectives on issues of religion. I have no desire to. I respect buddhism and taoism. I don't really consider them to be religions though. Not in the sense that we're talking about here at least.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

The two are intimately related or religion wouldn't be shoving its grimy hands where they don't belong and spreading lies (purposefully preserving ignorance!!!!!!! and then tell me that I'm a sinner?!?!) over questions that can now be answered by science. Science kills the need for religion to answer questions about the physical world which kills its believability. This is the path that the church started when they turned on galileo.

I explicitly said that i do not see other perspectives on issues of religion. I have no desire to. I respect buddhism and taoism. I don't really consider them to be religions though. Not in the sense that we're talking about here at least.

You mean the sense that you are talking about. I think you've made it very clear that your are ill equipped to know what anyone you don't agree with might be saying.