Thread: Why?

Oh man, the saying that religion helps teach ethics has been debunked so many times, I won't even waste my time.

Food for thought, atheists showed up to have stricter ethics than religious people in several surveys.

Fewer divorces too.

And people in prison.

Hah.

My favorite is that the argument I sometimes get from theists is something along the lines of "If you don't believe in god, why don't you run around killing and raping people? that's what I'd do if I didn't believe in god."


On a side note, this is what I feel like arguing against religion sometimes. Notice how the dude just doesn't die? This of course being an analogy for opinions. No threat of violence intended. I'm an athiest, remember.

I like discussing R/S as well, but it helps if people would actually read what the fuck others are writing, as opposed to hacking/nitpicking little points.

In all honesty, I myself, am totally opposed to religion and the traditional 'church'. There are many better alternatives to religion. But I mildly sense that there are things around us that our highly advanced technology can't, or maybe, doesn't choose to reveal at this point in time.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

More like you keep going back and forth, never leaving your original place...

In a way yes! Except perspective is everything in this case. You arent quite going back and forth, you are doing this!

Originally Posted by Lucky27

I like discussing R/S as well, but it helps if people would actually read what the fuck others are writing, as opposed to hacking/nitpicking little points.

These "little points" are usually the foundation of what the people are saying. If the foundation is faulty, what credibility does the rest of the content have?

That...or you can just waste time trying to disprove a valid point by looking for off-the-wall contradictions, just for the sake of an argument.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

But you almost seem like a radical for the other side.

In what way? My beliefs may be 'radical' in the sense that they are unconventional but they are thought out and rational. If you disagree, say how. Because my opinions are thought out and rational, I don't have to be radical. I can let my opinions/beliefs be. The distinction is that I own my opinions/beliefs because I have subjected them to rational scrutiny. My opinions/beliefs don't own me which is the case for people that buy into the judeo-christian-islamic mythology.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

I guess that point I'm trying to make goes back to what Sephiroth mentioned. A lot of people just burn out and become set in their ways and ideals. It's like working with clay, if you get lazy and let that shit harden, it's hard to get it working again, and after too long...well you become like Bill O'reilly.

I appreciate your analogy. It's a very good one. I don't think that it applies to someone of the scientific mindset. Think about the beliefs or items of faith that someone of the scientific mindset holds. I can only think of two: "Our perceptions of reality are a good approximation of it and the extent to which they are not can be described in a known way" and "the universe behaves in a consistent manner." That's it. In the pure model, there's not much to get stale because, if you are being intellectually honest, you must be open to new data. Contrast this with judeo-christian-islamicism in which you couldn't even begin to list the amount of things which you have to take on faith.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

Knowing what you're talking about takes not just knowledge but experience as well. There's a difference between simply knowing facts and actually understanding how things work.

For the most part, I agree completely. I disagree that you always need experience. If you think about it, experience is nothing more than one way to get facts and understanding of why they are facts.

You also said something about judeo-christian-islamic mythology encouraging morals and ethics. Kromoh and xei pretty much had their way with that statement, imo. I contributed a funny class of arguments for your position but that doesn't discredit it.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

That...or you can just waste time trying to disprove a valid point by looking for off-the-wall contradictions, just for the sake of an argument.

I'm not sure about how a point can remain valid in the face of a contradiction. Can you give me an example from around the forums? I mean, if it's being done so much..

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that religion is the best/only way to raise a child with good qualities. But I'd rather have my lazy, [unscientific-mindset-ed] neighbor be a member of some religion than a violent gang or such other nonsense.

I do understand the need for a system of thought that encourages ethics. Given the amount of christians in gangs (do athiests join gangs?) I don't think that christianity is the answer.

Here's a prophet that's almost worth the name talking. I chose a passage where he's scaring his monks (or rather, telling his monks how to scare the laity) with hell. Hell is for scaring the people that aren't really able or willing to think their way past it so I guess it has a place in a religion for the masses or whatever it is that you want christian mythology to be. In christian mythology, they use hell to scare you into believing in jesus. Click the button to find out what Buddha used hell to scare people into doing.

Spoiler for Real Scripture:

Originally Posted by Buddha

There are, monks, three divine messengers. What three?

There is a person of bad conduct in body, speech, and mind. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he is reborn in the plane of misery, in a bad destination, in a lower world, in hell. There the warders of hell seize him by both arms and take him before Yama, the Lord of Death, saying: 'This man, your majesty, had no respect for father and mother, nor for ascetics and brahmins, nor did he honor the elders of the family. May your majesty inflict due punishment on him!'

Then, monks, King Yama questions that man, examines him, and addresses him concerning the first divine messenger: 'Didn't you ever see, my good man, the first divine messenger appearing among humankind?'

And he replies: 'No, Lord, I did not see him.'

Then King Yama says to him: 'But, my good man, didn't you ever see a woman or a man, eighty, ninety, or a hundred years old, frail, bent like a roof bracket, crooked, leaning on a stick, shakily going along, ailing, youth and vigor gone, with broken teeth, with gray and scanty hair or bald, wrinkled, with blotched limbs?'

And the man replies: 'Yes, Lord, I have seen this.'

Then King Yama says to him: 'My good man, didn't it ever occur to you, an intelligent and mature person, "I too am subject to old age and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech, and mind"?'

'No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.'

Then King Yama says: 'Through negligence, my good man, you have failed to do noble deeds by body, speech, and mind. Well, you will be treated as befits your negligence. That evil action of yours was not done by mother or father, brothers, sisters, friends or companions, nor by relatives, devas, ascetics, or brahmins. But you alone have done that evil deed, and you will have to experience the fruit.'

When, monks, King Yama has questioned, examined, and addressed him thus concerning the first divine messenger, he again questions, examines, and addresses the man about the second one, saying: 'Didn't you ever see, my good man, the second divine messenger appearing amoung humankind?'

'No, Lord, I did not see him.'

'But, my good man, didn't you ever see a woman or a man who was sick and in pain, seriously ill, lying in his own filth, having to be lifted up by some and put to bed by others?'

'Yes, Lord, I have see this.'

Then King Yama says to him: 'My good man, didn't it ever occur to you, an intelligent and mature person, "I too am subject to illness and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech, and mind"?'

'No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.'

'Through negligence, my good man, you have failed to do noble deeds by body, speech, and mind. Well, you will be treated as befits your negligence. That evil action of yours was not done by mother or father, brothers, sisters, friends or companions, nor by relatives, devas, ascetics, or brahmins. But you alone have done that evil deed, and you will have to experience the fruit.'

When, monks, King Yama has questioned, examined, and addressed him thus concerning the second divine messenger, he again questions, examines, and addresses the man about the third one, saying: 'Didn't you ever see, my good man, the second divine messenger appearing amoung humankind?'

'No, Lord, I did not see him.'

'But, my good man, didn't you ever see a woman or a man one, two, or three days dead, the corpse swollen, discolored, and festering?'

'Yes, Lord, I have see this.'

'Then, my good man, didn't it ever occur to you, an intelligent and mature person, "I too am subject to death and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech, and mind"?'

'No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.'

'Through negligence, my good man, you have failed to do noble deeds by body, speech, and mind. Well, you will be treated as befits your negligence. That evil action of yours was not done by mother or father, brothers, sisters, friends or companions, nor by relatives, devas, ascetics, or brahmins. But you alone have done that evil deed, and you will have to experience the fruit.'

Another advantage that buddhism has is that so much more of his words were preserved or consistently invented that you can actually read entire books that are not much more than his words. It's a little of buddha did this, buddha did that and a whole lot of buddha talking. When's the last time that a buddhist (non monk to be fair) blew something up or killed somebody for their religion?

"If you don't believe in god, why don't you run around killing and raping people? that's what I'd do if I didn't believe in god."

And that's exactly why "they" need a hell to believe in. Hell, for those who cannot think past it.

I envy your gift for brevity. That should be on a t-shirt

Originally Posted by Invader

And that's exactly why "they" need a hell to believe in. Hell, for those who cannot think past it.

I don't think the person who said that is wrong actually. Imagine, all of your life you're told you can't do things because some sinister monster will come and get you if you do. I don't know about you guys, but as soon as I got rid of the restriction, I'd try everything I couldn't before.

The difference is that when you don't have a religion sending you to hell, you have ethics because you actually agree with them, not because you will be punished if you don't. That's why atheists have stricter morals.

Because people make it look like it's a terrible religion. I mean if I wasn't a Christian I would never convert over when people act like this. For example. A ton of Christians don't have any facts or proof to back up what they say. I read a website where they said pokemon is evil because..

1. They kill things
2. They use a power of cheat
3. some other crazy thing but I think the website was taken down so I can't find it.


Where have they gotten their facts? Those are all false.


Those idiot spammers who stop by saying lucid dreaming is evil and I'm going to hell.

That guy who said he wanted to prove that God was real by having him kill my dog. I mean seriously, these people preach hate and stupidity, why would anyone want to become a Christian with these conditions.


and then there is the Westboro Church, they are great to make fun of. The founders of Godhates___.com's. Seriously people are stupid. There was even one website that said Retards go to hell and babies go to hell. They actually said Retard.

Originally Posted by hellohihello

Oh and those idiot spammers saying Lucid Dreaming is the devil. They give us a bad rap... a very bad rap.

I was not aware that that even happened :O

Originally Posted by davej

Why do non believers come in here... Do you get your jollies off trying to mess with Christians? Are you so insecure with whatever you believe that you have to mess with others? DO you not have confidence to say this is what i believe in, this is what i stand for to be able to keep your mouth shut about it. You may be saying the same thing about me but this is a religion and spirituality board, not bash the Christian bored ha ha... so anyhow, what is your reason. Personally I am thinking it is probably insecurity. I have a best friend who is atheist and he has never tried to down my beliefs or try to tell me my beliefs ar false. When we discuss things he is able to look from my prespective and see where I am comeing from. Now that is someone with security in what they believe.

Since when does Religion/Spiritualty = Christianity?

Hah! darth vader looks as crushed as he could through that mask.

Originally Posted by Elis D.

*Right-click*
*Save image as*

Originally Posted by Elis D.

Since when does Religion/Spiritualty = Christianity?

Exactly what was going through my head when I read that post.

Originally Posted by davej

Why do non believers come in here... Do you get your jollies off trying to mess with Christians? Are you so insecure with whatever you believe that you have to mess with others? DO you not have confidence to say this is what i believe in, this is what i stand for to be able to keep your mouth shut about it. You may be saying the same thing about me but this is a religion and spirituality board, not bash the Christian bored ha ha... so anyhow, what is your reason. Personally I am thinking it is probably insecurity. I have a best friend who is atheist and he has never tried to down my beliefs or try to tell me my beliefs ar false. When we discuss things he is able to look from my prespective and see where I am comeing from. Now that is someone with security in what they believe.

Why...?

Do you have to make this thread...?

Originally Posted by davej

Why do non believers come in here... Do you get your jollies off trying to mess with Christians? Are you so insecure with whatever you believe that you have to mess with others? DO you not have confidence to say this is what i believe in, this is what i stand for to be able to keep your mouth shut about it. You may be saying the same thing about me but this is a religion and spirituality board, not bash the Christian bored ha ha... so anyhow, what is your reason. Personally I am thinking it is probably insecurity. I have a best friend who is atheist and he has never tried to down my beliefs or try to tell me my beliefs ar false. When we discuss things he is able to look from my prespective and see where I am comeing from. Now that is someone with security in what they believe.

Hi davej,

Well, you know, Christianity isn't the only religion on the planet, and personally, I was hoping for discussion that would encompass a variety of religious thought, from people who actually know the scriptures and teachings from at least their own religions well enough to have a discussion. But I sure don't see much of that here. It's just alleged scientists assuming they have all the answers bashing anyone else into submission. Odd group, really, who seem to miss the topic here completely. I agree with you about insecurity. Some things scare people, they need a protective little box to hide in, and apparently bashing others who differ reinforces the little box whenever it gets too tattered. They won't learn anything new or grow with those attitudes, of course, but apparently they don't care about that.

It kind of leaves you wondering, doesn't it?

Well, you know, Science isn't the only subject on the planet... lolol...

you know, Science isn't the only subject on the planet.

No, but it is the best system of finding out facts that cannot be logically proven. Furthermore, we owe our entire modern world to science. Show the subject the respect it deserves, or go and live in a cave in some jungle for the rest of your life.

If religion was such a good system of finding out truths, particularly with supposed divine backing, then why does science outperform it in every single way by orders of magnitude so large that it's almost impossible to convey?

If it's so good, why it is not used at the heart of the criminal justice system, or in any other field where results are essential? Why does prayer have no impact but modern medicine does? Because it doesn't work for this purpose. It fails spectacularly.

Why should people not get angry when ignorant and deluded fools deliberately attempt to undermine one of the greatest inventions ever? One that managed to get us off the ground to the moon in 60 years, one that alleviates a huge degree of suffering around the world, one that continues to advance ever more rapidly and take us closer to finding out truths than anything else? Why should people not get angry when others don't just bite the hand that feeds them (quite literally) with a grin on their faces, but attempt to tear it off and grind it up to be feed to the dogs?

Some things scare people, they need a protective little box to hide in

Yes, one which religion provides a very good box for the purpose of, actually.

One thing I wonder is why you ignored the repeated explanations on this already.

You clearly brought right in to the pathetic arguments by dave without any reading of this thread whatsoever; they are spectacularly weak. What's really telling is either you didn't think critically at all about them, or you lacked the intellect to do so.

They won't learn anything new or grow with those attitudes, of course, but apparently they don't care about that.

Ignoring the blatant hypocrisy for a second here, I find it truly staggering and ignorant that you accuse people who believe in an entire domain dependant on being open-minded to be close-minded.

and apparently bashing others who differ reinforces the little box whenever it gets too tattered.

Don't flatter yourself. No-one here on this board has demonstrated anywhere remotely close to the levels of knowledge and intellect required to "tatter the box". Repeating bad arguments (though ignorance prevents them from realising this) ad infinitum from elsewhere that have already been disproven countless times, does not count. It only raises the ire of those who have knowledge and repeatedly insist that such people educate themselves, which they refuse to do.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Davej, the reasons are just like Photo said. However, the reason why your atheist friend never discussed religion with you is because we usually avoid this topic, since it tends to make both sides angry. But this is the religion forum, you only come here if you want to discuss religion and have your beliefs questioned. If you don't wanna be questioned, don't come.

Well, if that was the intent of the people who set up this area, then it should be called "Religion and Spirituality Debate" or "Bash the Fundies" or something to make that clear from the start. I have been on many religion and spirituality forums and email lists, and believe me, they aren't all like this area. There is generally some intelligent actual discussion about a variety of religious beliefs, not just bashing of Fundamentalist Christianity, by people who seem to think anyone who is Christian and knows the Bible is a Fundamentalist, and ascribes to that kind of literalism. This area is very limited because of the way people behave here. And the same repetitious arguments are repeated over and over and over, ad nauseam. Don't you get tired of it? Wouldn't you like something more growth productive?

It boggles the mind.