Thread: Why?

Originally Posted by Lucky27

I agree a lot with what's stated above. And shit, maybe next week... I won't. But it's the ability to see things from other points of view and occasionally change your position (hmm, maybe I'm not always right?) that sets one aside from closed minds.

Kinda off-topic, but some would call it sitting on the fence xD

No, not really...

it's sitting on the fence minus the whole apathy part.

Dave, it's fascinating material and debate is fun. Why are YOU in here? All it does is make you want to play dodgeball and whine. This is a RELIGION FORUM. Do you show up on soccer fields and run away from the ball while you bitch that the other team is playing soccer?

I didn't think discussing something you have an opinion about was a bad thing. The only problem is, people are more likely to take it personal when someone says something to criticize their belief structure.

Consider how you'd feel if someone claimed to have some kind of proof of the absolute opposite of what you believe. Wouldn't you be interested? Wouldn't you at least take a look? Wouldn't you question it and criticize it if you found unanswered questions about it?

Like Catbus said, I don't recall seeing a case where an atheist just came in and started bashing believers. All I've seen is someone asking a religious question and people answer with conflicting beliefs, then start talking about it.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

No, not really...

it's sitting on the fence minus the whole apathy part.

I would call it indecision, or lack of faith in your beliefs. In fact, the very way and things you speak demonstrate that.

But oh well...

I suppose I have to fess up as having said that I believe that creationists are idiots on the "asshole" thread I started. I've since modified my belief to be that creationists are either idiots, cowards that are scared to look facts in the face and admit that they are wrong, or to lazy to correct their ignorance that is reinforced by everybody around them.

I also called one person in particular a moron and stupid. I held out for a while before I did it. He was suggesting that the fossils we have of our anscestors are the result of a global conspiricy of scientists. He then told me that he was just "questioning" things. I stand by my words and don't regret them in the least. Honestly questioning things is hard and respectable work. He should be ashamed of himself for using it as an excuse for willfull ignorance.

Ultimately, I like religious debates because I like debates to begin with and, further, think that the judeo-christian-islamic mythology is

a) a crock of shit
b) dangerous to the survival of the human species
c) creates irrational fear (before you say that thats funny considering b, realize that I can back my fear of it up with arguments)
d) motivates bigotry
e) has just generally been fucking with the human species for three thousand years longer than it should have been.
EDIT: f) promotes and depends upon ignorance

I'm well aware that there are more moderates than fundamentalists but the moderates just give legitimacy to the fundamentalists.

a) a crock of shit
b) dangerous to the survival of the human species
c) creates irrational fear (before you say that thats funny considering b, realize that I can back my fear of it up with arguments)
d) motivates bigotry
e) has just generally been fucking with the human species for three thousand years longer than it should have been.
EDIT: f) promotes and depends upon ignorance

I'm well aware that there are more moderates than fundamentalists but the moderates just give legitimacy to the fundamentalists.

But you almost seem like a radical for the other side.

I agree that religion is very dangerous when used as a tool to discourage questioning and creativity--and other political means. I also think that without an organized set of guidelines for most of these idiots, society would fall apart. People obviously need to be taught about good ethics and values from a young age. Church is kind of a version of lazy parenting. If you've ever been to church; which most of us probably have, you'll see how attendance is more about social status than the doctrine itself. All the gossip and ass-kissing involved goes beyond ridiculous.

I'd really like to know the percentage of religious people who have actually read the entire Bible. I haven't. Because I start to get frustrated when I read it. I know it's been "revised" so many times that it's not always easy for me to know what's true and what's not.

I guess that point I'm trying to make goes back to what Sephiroth mentioned. A lot of people just burn out and become set in their ways and ideals. It's like working with clay, if you get lazy and let that shit harden, it's hard to get it working again, and after too long...well you become like Bill O'reilly.

Knowing what you're talking about takes not just knowledge but experience as well. There's a difference between simply knowing facts and actually understanding how things work.

Oh man, the saying that religion helps teach ethics has been debunked so many times, I won't even waste my time.

Food for thought, atheists showed up to have stricter ethics than religious people in several surveys.

Fewer divorces too.

And people in prison.

Hah.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

But you almost seem like a radical for the other side.

In what way? My beliefs may be 'radical' in the sense that they are unconventional but they are thought out and rational. If you disagree, say how. Because my opinions are thought out and rational, I don't have to be radical. I can let my opinions/beliefs be. The distinction is that I own my opinions/beliefs because I have subjected them to rational scrutiny. My opinions/beliefs don't own me which is the case for people that buy into the judeo-christian-islamic mythology.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

I guess that point I'm trying to make goes back to what Sephiroth mentioned. A lot of people just burn out and become set in their ways and ideals. It's like working with clay, if you get lazy and let that shit harden, it's hard to get it working again, and after too long...well you become like Bill O'reilly.

I appreciate your analogy. It's a very good one. I don't think that it applies to someone of the scientific mindset. Think about the beliefs or items of faith that someone of the scientific mindset holds. I can only think of two: "Our perceptions of reality are a good approximation of it and the extent to which they are not can be described in a known way" and "the universe behaves in a consistent manner." That's it. In the pure model, there's not much to get stale because, if you are being intellectually honest, you must be open to new data. Contrast this with judeo-christian-islamicism in which you couldn't even begin to list the amount of things which you have to take on faith.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

Knowing what you're talking about takes not just knowledge but experience as well. There's a difference between simply knowing facts and actually understanding how things work.

For the most part, I agree completely. I disagree that you always need experience. If you think about it, experience is nothing more than one way to get facts and understanding of why they are facts.

You also said something about judeo-christian-islamic mythology encouraging morals and ethics. Kromoh and xei pretty much had their way with that statement, imo. I contributed a funny class of arguments for your position but that doesn't discredit it.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that religion is the best/only way to raise a child with good qualities. But I'd rather have my lazy, [unscientific-mindset-ed] neighbor be a member of some religion than a violent gang or such other nonsense.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Ultimately, I like religious debates because I like debates to begin with and, further, think that the judeo-christian-islamic mythology is

a) a crock of shit
b) dangerous to the survival of the human species
c) creates irrational fear (before you say that thats funny considering b, realize that I can back my fear of it up with arguments)
d) motivates bigotry
e) has just generally been fucking with the human species for three thousand years longer than it should have been.
EDIT: f) promotes and depends upon ignorance

I'm well aware that there are more moderates than fundamentalists but the moderates just give legitimacy to the fundamentalists.

And that rant, of course, is not recognized by you as an attitude of bigotry on your part?

Interesting...

Damn, I have to go to work right now. Define "bigotry". If it's a good definition, when I get back, I'll show that my position is not bigotry and that most definitions of christianity are.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Damn, I have to go to work right now. Define "bigotry". If it's a good definition, when I get back, I'll show that my position is not bigotry and that most definitions of christianity are.

I'm probably, frankly, not going to be here by the time you return. I joined this forum because it had areas for dream interpretation and allegedly for religion and spirituality. Since both are quite lacking here, I am going to move on and see what else is out there. This is just a total waste as far as I'm concerned. I'm not into programmed lucidity and closed-mindedness, and would really like to find a place where others are working knowledgeably with interpretation.

I just have to figure out who to ask to remove my poetry thread when I leave, as that is all copyrighted, and I don't really want it left here when I'm gone.

I just want to note that the R/S board is not just for Christians, it is meant for people of any religion (or lack thereof).

Damn Naiya, you've had 831 lucid dreams!

You must be a natural.

Nope! I worked hard over several years. It can be done!