Thread: Why?

I try to educate ignorant people on occasion, that is why. I also enjoy discussing the subject of religion with others.

When we discuss things he is able to look from my prespective and see where I am comeing from. Now that is someone with security in what they believe.

So if I disagree with you it's because I'm insecure? Not because you know ... I disagree with you and think you've got stuff fundamentally wrong?

Security in one's beliefs means being willing to accept them being challenged. Not avoiding discussing the matter and trying to project insecurity on to another group for disagreeing with you.

I try to educate ignorant people on occasion, that is why. I also enjoy discussing the subject of religion with others.

So those who don't believe what you believe are ignorant eh?

When did I say that?


But it is obvious that plenty of people on this board are highly ignorant of science. The lack of understanding is obvious when you have a basic knowledge of science, reason, logic, and so on.

If you are ignorant of facts though, yes you are ignorant. If you merely differ on personal beliefs, such as philosophy or ethics, then no, that does not make anyone ignorant. But it does indicate other things about them, such as intelligence, or morality.

Davej, the reasons are just like Photo said. However, the reason why your atheist friend never discussed religion with you is because we usually avoid this topic, since it tends to make both sides angry. But this is the religion forum, you only come here if you want to discuss religion and have your beliefs questioned. If you don't wanna be questioned, don't come.

As Photo said, there is a difference between ignorance and different opinions. If you say I can't prove that God doesn't exist, then it's only a difference of opinion: I'm sceptical and you aren't. But if you try to say, for example, that evolution is false, then you are just ignorant.

Originally Posted by davej

So those who don't believe what you believe are ignorant eh?

Davej, I think you nailed it right on the head. These kids think they have have all the answers, yet they don't have the balls to be honest with themselves and man up when they know they're wrong about something. They flame Christians for being ignorant sheep, yet they'll believe just about any piece of biased anti-christian garbage they come across.

The key is to find what works for you, and let others do the same for themselves.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

Davej, I think you nailed it right on the head. These kids think they have have all the answers, yet they don't have the balls to be honest with themselves and man up when they know they're wrong about something. They flame Christians for being ignorant sheep, yet they'll believe just about any piece of biased anti-christian garbage they come across.

Yeah, keep saying that until you convince yourself. Worse than the blind is the one who doesn't wanna see. But, as you guys said it, I'm an arrogant bastard.

You think you're the only one who has true opinions and reasons for those opinions. That's your problem.

How unsurprising. There's nothing like using strawmen, stereotyping, insults, and false projections to make a good argument eh? Why deal with facts when you can make stuff up.

There's also nothing like using defence mechanisms to avoid dealing with reality. "You disagree with me, you're insecure" or "If you disagree you just believe any biased stuff you come across you sheep". Why even bother looking at whether something has merit, when you can take the dishonest route instead.

The supreme irony really is that we're not the ones claiming to have knowledge that would be impossible to obtain, yet you have the audacity to label us as thinking we have all the answers. Well you're wrong boy. Yes, boy. I can be condescending too. Run along and play now.

I love R/S.

Now you just sound stupid. You wrote exactly what I was implying using different words to make it sound original, and then turned it around on me.

Some people aren't as dumb as you think you are smart.

DO you not have confidence to say this is what i believe in, this is what i stand for to be able to keep your mouth shut about it. You may be saying the same thing about me but this is a religion and spirituality board, not bash the Christian bored ha ha... so anyhow, what is your reason. Personally I am thinking it is probably insecurity. I have a best friend who is atheist and he has never tried to down my beliefs or try to tell me my beliefs ar false. When we discuss things he is able to look from my prespective and see where I am comeing from. Now that is someone with security in what they believe.

Yeah, the whole point of discussion is that you AREN'T secure in what you believe.

That's called 'blind faith', and most rational people consider it a bad thing.

I come here as much to scrutinise other people's reasoning as to examine mine. It's a mutual learning experience and any rational person should have nothing to fear from it.

Plus not all discussions are about challenging faith anyway. The thread I've just made about the place for religion in law is a good example, it has nothing to do with scrutinising others' beliefs.

Originally Posted by davej

DO you not have confidence to say this is what i believe in, this is what i stand for to be able to keep your mouth shut about it.

Hehe I chuckled... "Speak your mind about what you believe! Also, shut up about what you believe!"

Now you just sound stupid.

Seeing as what you wrote was stupid, you're not really in the best position to judge really.

You wrote exactly what I was implying using different words to make it sound original, and then turned it around on me.

Uh ... yes? I'm glad that you are perceptive enough to realise I was using your own foolish statements against you.

If you want to understand something you have to go one step further than everyone else. Your rationalism is rational until it is rational beyond rational.

Atheism is just one step above exclusivist religion.

But one step above exclusivist religion is not very far.

If you move one step further then religion becomes real again, except with a new perspective. You see across the lines of divided religions, into the fundamental meaning. The real purpose is all the same.

And if you move one step further than that you may give up religion again, and live only by faith in God or the Guru (Christ for Christians).

Just my current thoughts.

Originally Posted by sephiroth clock

If you want to understand something you have to go one step further than everyone else. Your rationalism is rational until it is rational beyond rational.

Atheism is just one step above exclusivist religion.

But one step above exclusivist religion is not very far.

If you move one step further then religion becomes real again, except with a new perspective. You see across the lines of divided religions, into the fundamental meaning. The real purpose is all the same.

And if you move one step further than that you may give up religion again, and live only by faith in God or the Guru (Christ for Christians).

Just my current thoughts.

More like you keep going back and forth, never leaving your original place...

Originally Posted by davej

Why do non believers come in here... Do you get your jollies off trying to mess with Christians? Are you so insecure with whatever you believe that you have to mess with others? DO you not have confidence to say this is what i believe in, this is what i stand for to be able to keep your mouth shut about it. You may be saying the same thing about me but this is a religion and spirituality board, not bash the Christian bored ha ha... so anyhow, what is your reason. Personally I am thinking it is probably insecurity. I have a best friend who is atheist and he has never tried to down my beliefs or try to tell me my beliefs ar false. When we discuss things he is able to look from my prespective and see where I am comeing from. Now that is someone with security in what they believe.

To be quite honest, I've never seen a 'non-believer' messing with a 'believer', only 'believers' complaining about being messed with. Feel free to post some links and prove me wrong, though.

Non believers come because R\S is a place for such a clash. Maybe it's not officially spelled out, but when a religous forum is made that isn't sealed off from non-believers, it's clear what kind of fate it's going to have.

Originally Posted by sephiroth clock

If you want to understand something you have to go one step further than everyone else. Your rationalism is rational until it is rational beyond rational.

Atheism is just one step above exclusivist religion.

But one step above exclusivist religion is not very far.

If you move one step further then religion becomes real again, except with a new perspective. You see across the lines of divided religions, into the fundamental meaning. The real purpose is all the same.

And if you move one step further than that you may give up religion again, and live only by faith in God or the Guru (Christ for Christians).

Just my current thoughts.

I agree a lot with what's stated above. And shit, maybe next week... I won't. But it's the ability to see things from other points of view and occasionally change your position (hmm, maybe I'm not always right?) that sets one apart from closed minds.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

I agree a lot with what's stated above. And shit, maybe next week... I won't. But it's the ability to see things from other points of view and occasionally change your position (hmm, maybe I'm not always right?) that sets one aside from closed minds.

Kinda off-topic, but some would call it sitting on the fence xD

No, not really...

it's sitting on the fence minus the whole apathy part.

Dave, it's fascinating material and debate is fun. Why are YOU in here? All it does is make you want to play dodgeball and whine. This is a RELIGION FORUM. Do you show up on soccer fields and run away from the ball while you bitch that the other team is playing soccer?

I didn't think discussing something you have an opinion about was a bad thing. The only problem is, people are more likely to take it personal when someone says something to criticize their belief structure.

Consider how you'd feel if someone claimed to have some kind of proof of the absolute opposite of what you believe. Wouldn't you be interested? Wouldn't you at least take a look? Wouldn't you question it and criticize it if you found unanswered questions about it?

Like Catbus said, I don't recall seeing a case where an atheist just came in and started bashing believers. All I've seen is someone asking a religious question and people answer with conflicting beliefs, then start talking about it.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

Davej, I think you nailed it right on the head. These kids think they have have all the answers, yet they don't have the balls to be honest with themselves and man up when they know they're wrong about something. They flame Christians for being ignorant sheep, yet they'll believe just about any piece of biased anti-christian garbage they come across.

The key is to find what works for you, and let others do the same for themselves.

I'd like you to point out instances when someone did not "have the balls to be honest with themselves and man up when they know they're wrong about something." I'd also like you to distinguish between what would be considered anti-christian garbage and good science that contradicts the faith.

Originally Posted by Lucky27

No, not really...

it's sitting on the fence minus the whole apathy part.

I would call it indecision, or lack of faith in your beliefs. In fact, the very way and things you speak demonstrate that.

But oh well...

I suppose I have to fess up as having said that I believe that creationists are idiots on the "asshole" thread I started. I've since modified my belief to be that creationists are either idiots, cowards that are scared to look facts in the face and admit that they are wrong, or to lazy to correct their ignorance that is reinforced by everybody around them.

I also called one person in particular a moron and stupid. I held out for a while before I did it. He was suggesting that the fossils we have of our anscestors are the result of a global conspiricy of scientists. He then told me that he was just "questioning" things. I stand by my words and don't regret them in the least. Honestly questioning things is hard and respectable work. He should be ashamed of himself for using it as an excuse for willfull ignorance.

Ultimately, I like religious debates because I like debates to begin with and, further, think that the judeo-christian-islamic mythology is

a) a crock of shit
b) dangerous to the survival of the human species
c) creates irrational fear (before you say that thats funny considering b, realize that I can back my fear of it up with arguments)
d) motivates bigotry
e) has just generally been fucking with the human species for three thousand years longer than it should have been.
EDIT: f) promotes and depends upon ignorance

I'm well aware that there are more moderates than fundamentalists but the moderates just give legitimacy to the fundamentalists.