Thread: All aboard the Atheist bus

Originally Posted by plg6067

I just call myself an agnostic because I don't fully understand anything really...

My questions to hard core atheists:

Do you believe consciousness dies with the body?

If yes then

Have you ever taken a large amount of a psychedelic drug such as psylocibin mushrooms or ayhusca(sp?) NOT for entertainment purposes? OR Have you had legit OBEs?

If no to the last questions, then I suggest you do those things and then see if you have the same opinion.

The brain gives 'life' to consciousness, so if your body dies, your conscience goes with it to. I haven't taken drugs or had an OBE, but I fail to see how doing either of those will prove a god of some sort.

Originally Posted by -Tyler-

The brain gives 'life' to consciousness, so if your body dies, your conscience goes with it to. I haven't taken drugs or had an OBE, but I fail to see how doing either of those will prove a god of some sort.

Ditto. (and sorry for such a small post )

Originally Posted by -Tyler-

The brain gives 'life' to consciousness, so if your body dies, your conscience goes with it to. I haven't taken drugs or had an OBE, but I fail to see how doing either of those will prove a god of some sort.

Yes, that is a common misconception. Your brain does not make concussions, consciousness manifests your brain.

Until you have left your body, it doesn't seem like the truth.

You should practice OBE techniques, once you are good enough you will be able to leave your body, make some observations(even read sets of numbers) and check these observations for correctness when you "wake up".

You can also travel out of body with a partner.

I know you don't believe me, I didn't believe in such things until the first time I had an OBE. The only way you can know for yourself is to experience. The reason I mention certain psychedelic substances is because you can reach these states of consciousness more easily with them.

I also recommend listening to the various interviews of Thomas Campbel, Albert Taylor and Robert Monroe available on youtube. I recommend thomas campbel for atheists, because he doesn't believe in a traditional god either and he is a scientists. Also he has the best theory for quantum mechanics imo.



edit- I didnt say doing these things will make you believe in god, I think they will most likely make you agnostic.

LOL.

What warrants you you really leave your body? It could be (and is, scientifically speaking) only a psychedelic experience. You don't know the potential and believability psychedelic experiences have. Well, the best example is dreaming, but OBEs, drugs and meditation also fit in the category.

But either way: your believing OBEs doesn't have anything not do with gods existing or not, so not much point in arguing over it.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

LOL.

What warrants you you really leave your body? It could be (and is, scientifically speaking) only a psychedelic experience. You don't know the potential and believability psychedelic experiences have. Well, the best example is dreaming, but OBEs, drugs and meditation also fit in the category.

Did you not see the part about reading numbers in a different room?

What warrants do you have that you are in your body right now and this isn't a illusion??????

BTW my OBEs were not drug induced. (well technically we all perceive reality with the drugs in our mind, they are just naturally occurring)


as I said before, this can not be explained, you must experience it for yourself.

Originally Posted by plg6067

Did you not see the part about reading numbers in a different room?

No one has ever been able to demonstrate this ability in a real test. If you can actually do this go to a sleep instutitute or some other people who study this kind of thing immediately and have them test you to prove it.

In reality every person who has ever been tested has never been able to accurately predict what writing was on a piece of paper anywhere in any of the rooms they were supposedly visiting during their "OBE"s.

Originally Posted by plg6067

Did you not see the part about reading numbers in a different room?

What warrants do you have that you are in your body right now and this isn't a illusion??????

BTW my OBEs were not drug induced. (well technically we all perceive reality with the drugs in our mind, they are just naturally occurring)


as I said before, this can not be explained, you must experience it for yourself.

What warrants I have that I am in my body? Oh man, don't appeal to solipsism, because it proves nothing. What warrants do you have your OBEs aren't an illusion? In rigid terms, everything could be an illusion, and that is why this principle doesn't serve to prove any argument because of its very assumption. If this really is an illusion, why are you even arguing with me? Logical fallacies suck, I know.

You don't need drugs to have psychedelic experiences. But using drugs assures you that all you had was a psychedelic experience. Well, you told me you didn't, so I'm not gonna try to prolong this and shut up now. Doesn't change the fact that OBEs are just dreams, though.

Sandform responded well to your other point, btw. There is more evidence that I am a pink butterfly than there is evidence for OBEs - why? because OBEs have much more evidence against them then I have against me.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

What warrants I have that I am in my body? Oh man, don't appeal to solipsism, because it proves nothing. What warrants do you have your OBEs aren't an illusion? In rigid terms, everything could be an illusion, and that is why this principle doesn't serve to prove any argument because of its very assumption. If this really is an illusion, why are you even arguing with me? Logical fallacies suck, I know.

You don't need drugs to have psychedelic experiences. But using drugs assures you that all you had was a psychedelic experience. Well, you told me you didn't, so I'm not gonna try to prolong this and shut up now. Doesn't change the fact that OBEs are just dreams, though.

Sandform responded well to your other point, btw. There is more evidence that I am a pink butterfly than there is evidence for OBEs - why? because OBEs have much more evidence against them then I have against me.

Originally Posted by Sandform

No one has ever been able to demonstrate this ability in a real test. If you can actually do this go to a sleep instutitute or some other people who study this kind of thing immediately and have them test you to prove it.

In reality every person who has ever been tested has never been able to accurately predict what writing was on a piece of paper anywhere in any of the rooms they were supposedly visiting during their "OBE"s.

No proof?
Actually a test subject has be able to in the lab.
"Miss Z" was able to read and remember a random 5 digit number in her out of body state.

Luck you say? It's 100,000 to one odds... The odds are not on your side.
http://www.paradigm-sys.com/ctt_articles2.cfm?id=50 see the second study on this page


Also, I was not trying to say that the reality you are living now is an illusion.
My point was my OBEs have been just as real to me as waking life(not like dreams at all), so telling me that they are not real is like me telling you that your waking life is an illusion.


You still don't believe me right? I don't blame you. As I said before, the only way you will believe is to experience.



Also a little tid bit I have to say on drugs- All mood is effectively a "drug induced illusion". Mood is regulated by chemical transmitters in the brain and the balance of that therein. So it is a bit absurd to dismiss certain experiences as illusions just because they were induced by an orally taken drug.

Originally Posted by plg6067

No proof?
Actually a test subject has be able to in the lab.
"Miss Z" was able to read and remember a random 5 digit number in her out of body state.

Luck you say? It's 100,000 to one odds... The odds are not on your side.
http://www.paradigm-sys.com/ctt_articles2.cfm?id=50 see the second study on this page


Also, I was not trying to say that the reality you are living now is an illusion.
My point was my OBEs have been just as real to me as waking life(not like dreams at all), so telling me that they are not real is like me telling you that your waking life is an illusion.


You still don't believe me right? I don't blame you. As I said before, the only way you will believe is to experience.



Also a little tid bit I have to say on drugs- All mood is effectively a "drug induced illusion". Mood is regulated by chemical transmitters in the brain and the balance of that therein. So it is a bit absurd to dismiss certain experiences as illusions just because they were induced by an orally taken drug.

I can think of various explanations of how she could have picked a number. 1. She was a cheat who simply learned of the numbers before hand and only got them right because, completely unrelated to magic or psychic ability, she actually knew what they were without having to dream about it. 2. It is a hoax by the man you're quoting. Which wouldn't be surprising as she is only referred to as "miss Z" and for some reason he just can't "track her down." 3. She could have actually done it randomly, why not? Oh gee the odds are stacked against her. You do know people eventually do win the lottery right? You drag in enough people enough times and some day you will hit the jack pot.

Of course why not quote something that has poor records and can not be repeated. Because the only way you could even approach something like proof is to say "yes there is proof, just look over here where someone says there was proof at one time even though he can't back up such a claim."



"So it is a bit absurd to dismiss certain experiences as illusions just because they were induced by an orally taken drug."

Why? Our minds and bodies are designed to live in reality. They use chemicals to do so. When the chemicals aren't faulty they give us a correct impression of reality that is independently verifiable between your other senses as well as the senses of others. When they are faulty they don't give us the correct impression.

Thanks for saving my time Sandform xD I didn't even know where to start...

Expanding what Sandform said, lets go to some practical talk. If a single person on earth, when performing an academic research, ever got a significant (doesn't even have to be undeniable) result at showing any paranormal ability, don't you expect it'd be shout out by the media? Seriously, you have to go to the very pits of the most dubious "scientific" trials in order to find one piece of evidence that doesn't even stand for itself. Yet, this kind of paranormality test is performed daily on several universities and research centres around the world, and all the million results show a negative. There are colleges specialised in testing paranormal experiences, more than you'd believe. The problem with people like you is manipulation of information. Let's all forget the million negative results and tell the story of miss Z and her "undeniable" paranormal ability. Seriously, the Internet is not even slightly scientifically relevant - if you want to find bs, there's plenty all around, but if you want to find an accredited trial, you'll have to look somewhere else.

Finally - the supposedly "scientific" study you showed isn't scientific at all - one who has dealt with trials before will quickly realise this. Trials don't tell stories. Trials explain their methods of blinding and double-blinding and method of data collection. Trials don't specify subjects. Even if the trial was true and lady Z said the right numbers, it would only prove that lady Z said the right numbers, not how she did it (so no proof for OBE experience). Also, the article says she only did it once, after many nights of trying. In fact, that "scientific study" is best described as "sensationalist article". The article criticises "scientism" so much, but the very article is intendedly pseudo-scientific - opinion and lie masked as science. Stuff to make people like you, who never had contact with real science, believe it.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I can think of various explanations of how she could have picked a number. 1. She was a cheat who simply learned of the numbers before hand and only got them right because, completely unrelated to magic or psychic ability, she actually knew what they were without having to dream about it. 2. It is a hoax by the man you're quoting. Which wouldn't be surprising as she is only referred to as "miss Z" and for some reason he just can't "track her down." 3. She could have actually done it randomly, why not? Oh gee the odds are stacked against her. You do know people eventually do win the lottery right? You drag in enough people enough times and some day you will hit the jack pot.

Of course why not quote something that has poor records and can not be repeated. Because the only way you even approach something like proof is to say "yes there is proof, just look over here where someone says there was proof at one time even though he can't back up such a claim."



"So it is a bit absurd to dismiss certain experiences as illusions just because they were induced by an orally taken drug."

Why? Our minds and bodies are designed to live in reality. They use chemicals to do so. When the chemicals aren't faulty they give us a correct impression of reality that is independently verifiable between your other senses as well as the senses of others. When they are faulty they don't give us the correct impression.

How do you know that certain chemicals were not designed to interact with our brain in order to allow us to perceive other perceptions of reality? The aztecs called psylocibin mushrooms the flesh of god, maybe they were right? Why dismiss anything?

When I give you evidence why do you refuse to say, "hey maybe consciousness is separate from the body. Maybe it is not. I really don't know." ?

As I said before, you really have to experience it in order to believe it. I don't expect you to believe me...

Other things which I consider some decent evidence that there is something to OBEs

People(many of which have absolutely no prior knowledge of OBEs) have similar experiences which suggest that these experiences are not just dreams, skeptics can only explain this away by saying it's coincidence.

like people report the same unique "places" in the astral planes, even people who don't have prior knowledge of the subject of projection. Also why do many people see cords connecting their spirit body to their real body? Is this programed into our DNA or something, or are people just having the same unique 100% vidid dreams? The "coincidences" go on...

Originally Posted by Kromoh

If a single person on earth, when performing an academic research, ever got a significant (doesn't even have to be undeniable) result at showing any paranormal ability, don't you expect it'd be shout out by the media?

No. Scientists who acknowledge any science that is paranormal in nature are rejected by the rest of the scientific community. Just like how Thomas Campbel and Albert Taylor have been rejected by the scientific community. Also kinda like how John Allegro had his career ruined when he wrote his book on how hallucinogenic mushrooms played a large role in the development of christiananity.

Also there isn't a way to prove (at least the way you want) that this phenomenon is real, you cant explain the subjective in objective terms. BUT that doesn't mean the subjective does not exist. For example thoughts are non-physical but they still exist..

Thomas Campbell does a much better job of explaining this in his lectures(you can watch some of them online). He also mentions a lot that it is not simple enough to explain in a couple paragraphs, thats why he wrote three 500 page books about his theory about reality and quantum mechanics.

Originally Posted by plg6067

John Allegro had his career ruined when he wrote his book on how hallucinogenic mushrooms played a large role in the development of christiananity.

If that can be proven, it will speak volumes. It would also make a really cool thread topic.

Originally Posted by plg6067

Also there isn't a way to prove (at least the way you want) that this phenomenon is real, you cant explain the subjective in objective terms. BUT that doesn't mean the subjective does not exist. For example thoughts are non-physical but they still exist..

Thomas Campbell does a much better job of explaining this in his lectures(you can watch some of them online). He also mentions a lot that it is not simple enough to explain in a couple paragraphs, thats why he wrote three 500 page books about his theory about reality and quantum mechanics.

There is way to prove something. If there is no way to prove something, then it is unreal. Don't come saying "you can't explain the subjective in objective terms" - that is the worst argument I've seen. Yes, you actually can explain the subjective in objective terms - I can call my body lean and beautiful, and that objectively explains my subjective view of my body (this is just an example btw).

And seriously - I've seen so many misconceptions about quantum mechanics, made by people who don't understand shit about it.. and I've also seen people who intendedly use quantum physics to "prove" that 1 + 1 = 3, just because it's a part of science many people don't understand. Quantum mechanics doesn't prove shit about OBEs - your brain doesn't work in quantic levels. Quantum physics is a science, and has method, laws and postulates, just like everything else - it isn't just a bunch of hard-to-grasp concepts and philosophy. In fact, quantum physics is one of the few areas of science that is purely experimental - nobody came up one day and had the idea of a theory about quantum physics, they observed quantic behaviour and postulated its rules.

Originally Posted by plg6067

When I give you evidence why do you refuse to say, "hey maybe consciousness is separate from the body. Maybe it is not. I really don't know." ?

No, I'm perfectly willing to accept that consciousness can exist outside or independently of the brain. But first you have to present evidence that isn't shrouded in vagueness. Give me some names, that don't include missing persons like miss Z, that can be verified. Every time a study has been done appropriately psychics and other such nonsense have been proven to be either people who have fooled themselves or people who are purposely lying.

I might as well say you don't know that Chris Angel's tricks aren't really super powers thus he must actually have super powers.

The key to understand here is that unverifiable vague claims like "once upon a time there was evidence" are not evidence.

Originally Posted by plg6067

As I said before, you really have to experience it in order to believe it. I don't expect you to believe me...

I've already experienced it. Everyone on the planet has experienced it. The difference is we know what is real and what is not.

Last night I had a dream and it felt really real. I woke up in my room and I was like "hmmm? am I still dreaming?" So I did my normal test as per usual and tried to move something in the room with my mind. It worked, but everything looked so real that I couldn't believe that it was a dream. So I went around the house trying to find the truth. The house I saw looked completely different than the house in reality. However, in the dream I thought "ok cool, I'm not dreaming, this all looks perfectly normal." The point here? You can't trust things that happen when you are hallucinating because it is not real.

Until there is reason to believe a claim the natural stance to take is disbelief.

Originally Posted by plg6067

like people report the same unique "places" in the astral planes, even people who don't have prior knowledge of the subject of projection. Also why do many people see cords connecting their spirit body to their real body? Is this programed into our DNA or something, or are people just having the same unique 100% vidid dreams? The "coincidences" go on...

First of all, humans have similar minds. Thousands of technological devices have been invented many times all around the world when societies were still more isolated. It doesn't require psychic ability to explain two people inventing the wheel. I would imagine people who try to Astral Project read things before hand so similar experiences can be accounted this way as well. The more important question to ask would be why do some people who AP not see chords? Why do people who have NDEs see different versions of supernatural nonsense? Why did my great grandmother not see anything when she actually died and came back?

Sandform I hope one day evidence will be available to you.

Because without a doubt seeing the future is possible, sadly I don't have conscious control of it most of the time.

It comes and goes as it pleases, maybe perhaps the reason its been hard to prove..

That and those out to make a profit are probably fake.

You can't trust things that happen when you are hallucinating because it is not real.

Not quite, because when I am hallucinating I know I am hallucinating. It doesn't change the fact that I saw something wrote it down told all my friends and two days later that exact event happened. If you had something like this happen to you, it would be incontrovertible proof to yourself.

Hallucinating is not like people imagine it to be, you don't see giant leprechauns.. What happens is what you see is distorted, morphed to fit what your mind wants to see(or the substance i should say). Our brains are always operating under chemicals, drugs just add more of the same or different ones. Altering our vision, increasing detail in what we see.. And I believe making us more able to notice the subtlety of our global consciousness.

Most of the hallucinations that take place while "tripping" are down on the screen on my mind, very easy to tell that it isn't actually part of the makeup of the land but a screen over my vision..

Closing my eyes, assaults my senses. Shutting out all light, sound, leads to psychic visions..(at least it has..)

My main point is, its usually very easy to tell the difference between reality and your hallucinations..

Yes, it is possible to determine hallucination from reality, that is what lucid dreams are.

What was your prediction? What did you write down that came true?

Originally Posted by Sandform

Yes, it is possible to determine hallucination from reality, that is what lucid dreams are.

What was your prediction? What did you write down that came true?

Did I tell you this already?

A death of a friend, the name was not given to me. But unfolded before my eyes while taking a bath. No lights, total sensory deprivation. I saw a hill, that matches the exact hill where the car accident that happened took place, I saw red flashing lights an ambulance, rain and a tree with a car smashed into it... Two days later a friend of mine died in that exact way.

Every year since, it's rained on that day. Albeit its a rainy month, but... without fail it has.

I can't believe that vision was just mere coincidence. Nor the many others, though far less dramatic.

I'm sorry that your friend died...but that is a nonsense story. I don't know how you could possibly know that the hill matches the hill in your "vision." You didn't have a name? So it could have been anyone then? Car crashes are common.

I'm amazed that the hill was matched so "perfectly" but yet you didn't have an exact match for the person.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I'm sorry that your friend died...but that is a nonsense story. I don't know how you could possibly know that the hill matches the hill in your "vision." You didn't have a name? So it could have been anyone then? Car crashes are common.

I'm amazed that the hill was matched so "perfectly" but yet you didn't have an exact match for the person.

I'm sure you can of course try to claim that. But why exactly have a vision of a car accident and a hill, in rain and an ambulance two days before?

It's not like I often have visions of car accidents.. It was the one and only time I ever had this vision, and then it happened two days later...

The hill in my vision was quite similar, if I could take a snapshot from my mind and match it to a snapshot of the crash site it would match.

I had no control over what i saw, if I did I would have grabbed the name.. but their was no auditory and I never got a good look at anyone in the car.. I actually started bugging out, and probably stopped myself abruptly.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Did I tell you this already?

A death of a friend, the name was not given to me. But unfolded before my eyes while taking a bath. No lights, total sensory deprivation. I saw a hill, that matches the exact hill where the car accident that happened took place, I saw red flashing lights an ambulance, rain and a tree with a car smashed into it... Two days later a friend of mine died in that exact way.

Every year since, it's rained on that day. Albeit its a rainy month, but... without fail it has.

I can't believe that vision was just mere coincidence. Nor the many others, though far less dramatic.

It might have been a result of psychic ability. I believe in that, but it is very, very faint at this point in our evolution.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

There is way to prove something. If there is no way to prove something, then it is unreal. Don't come saying "you can't explain the subjective in objective terms" - that is the worst argument I've seen. Yes, you actually can explain the subjective in objective terms - I can call my body lean and beautiful, and that objectively explains my subjective view of my body (this is just an example btw).

And seriously - I've seen so many misconceptions about quantum mechanics, made by people who don't understand shit about it.. and I've also seen people who intendedly use quantum physics to "prove" that 1 + 1 = 3, just because it's a part of science many people don't understand. Quantum mechanics doesn't prove shit about OBEs - your brain doesn't work in quantic levels. Quantum physics is a science, and has method, laws and postulates, just like everything else - it isn't just a bunch of hard-to-grasp concepts and philosophy. In fact, quantum physics is one of the few areas of science that is purely experimental - nobody came up one day and had the idea of a theory about quantum physics, they observed quantic behaviour and postulated its rules.

I am not saying quantum mechanics proves OBEs, I just mentioned Thomas Campbell books. You should take a look at his theories of quantum mechanics if you interested in the subject.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I've already experienced it. Everyone on the planet has experienced it. The difference is we know what is real and what is not.

Last night I had a dream and it felt really real. I woke up in my room and I was like "hmmm? am I still dreaming?" So I did my normal test as per usual and tried to move something in the room with my mind. It worked, but everything looked so real that I couldn't believe that it was a dream. So I went around the house trying to find the truth. The house I saw looked completely different than the house in reality. However, in the dream I thought "ok cool, I'm not dreaming, this all looks perfectly normal." The point here? You can't trust things that happen when you are hallucinating because it is not real.

If you have an OBE you will know what I am talking about. Just because you had a dream that seemed like an OBE to your dreaming mind, does not mean thats what all OBE experiences are. I have had dreams a lot like the one you had, my OBEs were nothing like those dreams. The way you can absolutely tell the difference between a dream and an obe is to go somewhere and make observations and then confirm those observations when you "wake up". For example Albert Taylor went to a co-workers house(he had never been to) in an OBE and confirmed his unique observations in real life.
Obviously you can't just believe him or me, you must have a similar experience for yourself before you believe.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If that can be proven, it will speak volumes. It would also make a really cool thread topic.

Well I don't think it can be proven, but it is a very solid theory. I mean Moses had talked to a burning bush, I think that is a good indicator he was tripping balls...

John Alegro wrote a book called The Sacred Mushroom and The Cross. It is available for free here- http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1723273/...-and-the-Cross.

A fairly decent movie about the subject is on this page- http://current.com/items/89410999/mu...ical_manna.htm (the beginning of the movie doesnt really talk about mushrooms but the rest does)