Thread: Hell

Firstly, God did not create hell, the devil did. Why would a God of love and mercy create a place such as that? When the devil (a.k.a known as lucifer wich means Bright and shining one) realized he would never rule humanity he decided he would take great delight in torturing them. When you talk of God and the need to hate him and despise him for allowing hell to be you seem to forget about heaven and shouldn't, because of this place of eternal paradise and joy that must rival the paine of hell, he be praised for ever? Seen in this light, the eternal praising that should be done because of hell and the eternal hatered that should be done because of hell sort of cancel each other out. As such we must look at what many precieve as the facts. The only reason hell still exsist is because of humanity. If everyone chose to love and trust God then there would be no need for hell, it would have no place in the Great scheme of things. Because humanity is stupid (in comparision to God) and sometimes corrupt hell has a purpose. Humans have free will, this free will allows them to choose to abandon God and if they do they cannot enter heaven. Ther is a simple reason for this, Gods place is a place of perfection and imperfection cannot exsist there. Humans cannot be made perfect if they insist on hanging on to that sin of rebellion against God and therefore cannot enter heaven.

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

Firstly, God did not create hell, the devil did. Why would a God of love and mercy create a place such as that? When the devil (a.k.a known as lucifer wich means Bright and shining one) realized he would never rule humanity he decided he would take great delight in torturing them. When you talk of God and the need to hate him and despise him for allowing hell to be you seem to forget about heaven and shouldn't, because of this place of eternal paradise and joy that must rival the paine of hell, he be praised for ever? Seen in this light, the eternal praising that should be done because of hell and the eternal hatered that should be done because of hell sort of cancel each other out. As such we must look at what many precieve as the facts. The only reason hell still exsist is because of humanity. If everyone chose to love and trust God then there would be no need for hell, it would have no place in the Great scheme of things. Because humanity is stupid (in comparision to God) and sometimes corrupt hell has a purpose. Humans have free will, this free will allows them to choose to abandon God and if they do they cannot enter heaven. Ther is a simple reason for this, Gods place is a place of perfection and imperfection cannot exsist there. Humans cannot be made perfect if they insist on hanging on to that sin of rebellion against God and therefore cannot enter heaven.

Which brings up another question: Why is an all-powerful god not all-powerful?

He is, he just chooses to play within certian rules for the over-all benefit of humanity. Like a father letting his small children beat him in a basketball game.

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

He is, he just chooses to play within certian rules for the over-all benefit of humanity. Like a father letting his small children beat him in a basketball game.

But he created humanity... How then is it possible that he is working toward our overall benefit if he not only makes us impure, but also works against our capacity to reason by giving us every logical reason not to believe in him, but expects us to believe in him or we go to hell? No matter which way you put it, he is sending us to eternal suffering.

What if you imagine Heaven and Hell not as 'places' in the sense of physical space, but rather as spiritual 'tendencies'?

Heaven is the movement towards God and Hell is the sense of movement away from God. These movements exist only relative to their limits and only in a sense of 'becoming', whereas God 'exists' infinitely, eternally as Being. From the perspective of Being, if one may use the expression, there is no duality - it is understood as One. When viewed from a limited perspective, such as the human perspective, however, Being is experienced as becoming and everything that is included in that particular mode of existence.

This duality of Heaven/Hell, Light/Darkness, Knowledge/Ignorance, etc. produces a graded 'expanse' within which exists manifestation - or rather, it is 'Creation' that contains the potential for all possible manifestations within given sets of limits. Creation is inherently a movement 'away' from God, but only relative to that which believes itself to be moving.

What is so special about humans is that we have access to both points of view - we are experiencing the world of becoming, but we can also realize within ourselves the stillness of Being, freed from the constantly changing world of the senses. It is up to us individually to focus on our center, because nothing outside of us will permanently change the perspective for us. It must also be a fully conscious effort, and not fall to the temptations of immediate gratification that our present culture so often promotes.

When this center is established within, we become freed from the incessant desires that are ignorantly followed, and become fully conscious of our actions, knowing that they are an expression of a higher source.

Originally Posted by syzygy

What if you imagine Heaven and Hell not as 'places' in the sense of physical space, but rather as spiritual 'tendencies'?

Heaven is the movement towards God and Hell is the sense of movement away from God. These movements exist only relative to their limits and only in a sense of 'becoming', whereas God 'exists' infinitely, eternally as Being. From the perspective of Being, if one may use the expression, there is no duality - it is understood as One. When viewed from a limited perspective, such as the human perspective, however, Being is experienced as becoming and everything that is included in that particular mode of existence.

This duality of Heaven/Hell, Light/Darkness, Knowledge/Ignorance, etc. produces a graded 'expanse' within which exists manifestation - or rather, it is 'Creation' that contains the potential for all possible manifestations within given sets of limits. Creation is inherently a movement 'away' from God, but only relative to that which believes itself to be moving.

What is so special about humans is that we have access to both points of view - we are experiencing the world of becoming, but we can also realize within ourselves the stillness of Being, freed from the constantly changing world of the senses. It is up to us individually to focus on our center, because nothing outside of us will permanently change the perspective for us. It must also be a fully conscious effort, and not fall to the temptations of immediate gratification that our present culture so often promotes.

When this center is established within, we become freed from the incessant desires that are ignorantly followed, and become fully conscious of our actions, knowing that they are an expression of a higher source.

You can imagine all you want, it doesn't change the text of the Bible. And the Bible says nothing about 'becoming' or just a 'sense of moving'.

Now moving on to LucidBoy, let me get this straight:

1) God creates all angels, including Satan (with full knowledge of what Satan would do)

2) Satan gets pissed off about God loving humanity so he makes a place of eternal agony

3) God says Satan can have the people who didn't believe in him, even if He gave us terrible evidence to support his existence AND will full knowledge that Satan created hell for us.

1 + 2 + 3 = a God who sends us to hell for his own shortcomings. Sounds like a petty, unjust, maniacal control-freak to me.

Originally Posted by Needcatscan

You can imagine all you want, it doesn't change the text of the Bible. And the Bible says nothing about 'becoming' or just a 'sense of moving'.

The text of the Bible is merely a dead letter, and if interpreted literally produces a dull understanding. It should be read with a spiritual understanding, which is to say it should be lived, 'imagined' within. We must think for ourselves here and not just regurgitate pre-established interpretations, either for or against the Bible's validity towards Truth.

Nothing I said in my last post contradicts the Bible, and in fact can all be supported by the Bible. But do not take it from me, I was merely positing a question. Of course it is easy to just pass off what I say as me "imagining what I want", but understand that we are coming at our interpretations from completely different angles. You are trying to discredit the Bible with a superficial, literal rendering, perhaps not even from your own efforts, whereas I am living what I speak about, "for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

The only reason hell still exsist is because of humanity. If everyone chose to love and trust God then there would be no need for hell, it would have no place in the Great scheme of things. Because humanity is stupid (in comparision to God) and sometimes corrupt hell has a purpose.

God is stupid in comparison to me or just about every sensible forum member I've seen discussing on this forum. Doesn't this make his whole plan fall apart?

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

Humans have free will, this free will allows them to choose to abandon God and if they do they cannot enter heaven. Ther is a simple reason for this, Gods place is a place of perfection and imperfection cannot exsist there. Humans cannot be made perfect if they insist on hanging on to that sin of rebellion against God and therefore cannot enter heaven.

First prove that free will exists, before you judge anyone of anything and sentencing them to eternal hell.

So perfection is based on how ignorant or how much blind faith you have? Maybe I'll go to heaven even faster if I find an even more irrational idea then the christian one. Besides, how can you rebel against something that doesn't exist and how can you sin if this sin is based on something that doesn't exist. Don't tell me that deep down I know God exists and that I hate him. The view of perfection you presented is more of a lottery than anything else. I can't control where I'm born, what religion I'm indoctrinated, how much of a critical thinker I am... It's all physics, or biology/chemistry, whatever you prefer. It's a lottery, and those who win the brain which makes you "believe" go to heaven. Guess who decided who gets which brain in the christian idea.

You see, I wouldn't create beings which I knew that I'd have to torture for an eternity. The only explanation I have to "rationalize" this is that God is insane. If that's the case, then god help me.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

First prove that free will exists, before you judge anyone of anything and sentencing them to eternal hell.

You can't prove this kind of thing, and it won't be useful for discussion either.

The point: You always make choices. What is your intention?


Also, to think God created hell is like believing a light has created darkness. The darkness is only the shadow of an obstacle, and in the spiritual sense, the light of truth is shadowed by the obstacles of ignorance.

But you can drug somebody or brainwash him to kill people, or not believe in a god. You can argue that it's the souls fault, but I don't see how. The simple fact that you can play around with the human mind in such a way makes the good/evil person discussion really difficult. If you raise a kid to kill people, he'll most likely do it, if you raise him to believe in god... I'm not going to say that he'll definitely stay a believer for ever, but the fact is that we live in a universe of rules. Saying that it's my fault that I'm going to hell is stupid. I didn't ask for this brain and I can't mold it.

Hell

Azkaban

Originally Posted by Bonsay

But you can drug somebody or brainwash him to kill people, or not believe in a god. You can argue that it's the souls fault, but I don't see how. The simple fact that you can play around with the human mind in such a way makes the good/evil person discussion really difficult. If you raise a kid to kill people, he'll most likely do it, if you raise him to believe in god... I'm not going to say that he'll definitely stay a believer for ever, but the fact is that we live in a universe of rules. Saying that it's my fault that I'm going to hell is stupid. I didn't ask for this brain and I can't mold it.

Depends mainly on karma, level of consciousness, intention, awareness, etc.