Thread: The morality of atheism

While I agree with the sentiment, you are giving way to much credit to the human race. We are naturally irrational, cynical, and fearful of that which we don't understand. So if we can actually get rid of all these things, utopian societies might be possible. But it's actually getting rid of those things that is near to impossible. We didn't evolve by join hands in unity; we evolved through hard, cold survival of the fittest and dominating over others. It will take many millenia to shake off our evolutionary past.

Here's to utopian societies though. Won't be in our generation, but maybe in our (great x 100) grand kids.

You are looking at the problem as realistic. I am looking at the problem as an idealist. Yes, at this point in our history, it is a fantasy. But isn't there a fucking point in our future where we can look at each other as human beings and worry about our neighbors ailments? Can we not look past our diffrerences and realize that we are actually together? Can we not say FUCK allah? Can we not say FUCK jesus? Can we not come together and say that we are all human beings?

Empathy, is the most wonderful thing that we can possess. What is it going to take? Do the vulcans have to come down and make first contact? Is that the extremity of the situation that has to happen?

I hate to bring politics into this, but Obamas election, I feel, was the beginning of what can be an amazing humanist uprising. It is not all about religion, religion has a lot to do with the bigotry and unacceptance of our times.

It is time.

I don't actually want to type this. But I was kind of a racist before I was in the real world. Call it part of my upbringing. But then i got a job with my bros. The black people there were the ones who didn't give a shit about my fagotry. They were accepting of my alternative love. Why? Because they understood about not being accepted all the time.

Why are we still at this point?

Can we not, at this point, start looking at what matters? There is more life in this universe, we are but a pixel in a 1440X900 display. Let's stop acting like we are the kings of this universe, because we are not.

Humanism is morality that transcends religion and spirituality, not the opposite of it. Atheism is merely a religious paradigm that matches quite well with humanism, because atheism asserts that nothing divine has dominion over the way we should act as sentient, free-willed beings. However, I still agree with the intentions of the OP, which are to tell us to awaken as a collective species and realize that we are all the same, despite our differences. Let's stop trying to create a utopia by killing people that disagree with our perspectives on what a utopia is, but rather working together for the ultimate and unachievable goal of a perfect world. We don't need 100% perfection to be happy, because most people in the world today will be content with many of the menial things most of us in developed countries take for granted. Just give it a shot.

After millions of years of evolution, the human body can still develop defects and cancer. Society is always changing, always developing. New trends constantly come around that change the way we behave and they can disrupt or aid the status quo. It often depends on a sense of fairness.

We share this need for fairness with chimpanzees. When caged chimps were freely being offered grains they'd delightfully accept them. However, when some chimps started receiving grapes, all the ones still receiving grains got pissed off and threw them back and stuff.

In Argentina, the Juntas behind the mass disappearances of up to 20,000 boys were put on Trial after the government became a democracy again. They were imprisoned for a while, but then this other guy let them all out in the next term. I remember the stories from history class but no names or dates. Anyway, if you look at the culture of Argentina now, it's filled to the brink with impunity. Nobody respects any laws, and they haven't for the last 25 years or however long it's been since the Juntas were let out of jail. If people behind tortures and executions on a massive, nation wide scale could just be let out free of charge, then what point was there for anybody to respect the structure in place?

The point is for every action, there is a reaction. The human body gets cancer from habitual intake of carcenogens without a healthy immune system. There are always people considered worthless to society: murderers, pedophiles and rapists but besides that there are always ideological trends fighting against each other and competing, and we do this because we're all inherently seeking unity, we just have to organize ourselves first.

So is utopia possible? Well that would imply a society could finish developing, and then we'd all commit mass suicide. Could it be a society where we live with mutual care for each other? Sure, but right now the ideologies are still fighting, and fighting one ideology even harder isn't going to make them go away, we have to reconcile.

...And because Humanism so obviously equates to atheism, theists are all ill-willed bigots who disregard everything Humanists stand for as sinful, irrational, blasphemous and ignorant, right? Those who have faith in some sort of higher being have no faith in the great potential of human beings, right?

Bullfuck. That shit is entirely untrue in every aspect.

If not for religion, thousands and thousands of people would be hurling themselves off of bridges by now. Faith gives some people the will to keep on living, even when some of them know in their hearts that they don't have an awful lot to live for.

And yet because some dicks who claim themselves to be messengers of God/Allah/Zeus/whatever intentionally misinterpret the words of holy texts to fit them to their own warped desires - so that they can gain complete dominion over everyone else who shares the same faith by means of coercion - everyone who believes in something spiritual is somehow inherently counterproductive in the never-ending human quest for finding utopia?

I'm not sure if you knew this, but in even in a utopia, not everyone is in total agreeance about everything. The thing that separates the utopia from the dystopia is that in the dystopia, people harm or kill each other for having conflicting beliefs, and that in the utopia, people peacefully agree to disagree and leave it at that. You're acting as though all atheists take the "agree to disagree" route while all theists take the "believe what I say or I'll hurt you" route. Not only is the latter totally untrue, but there are many atheists out there who have indeed committed acts of violence against theists for their "irrational beliefs in a silly all-powerful wizard".

So you're an idealist. Good for you. However, I, like Needcatscan, am a realist. The "Humanist" part of atheists like you fails to realize that all the good little things like love, tolerance, forgiveness, and believing in yourself - and all that crap - is not the only thing that makes us human; it is what you call "human ugliness" - things like hatred, intolerance, the notion of revenge and feelings of Schadenfreude that also make us human. A good side cannot exist without a bad side.

That said, utopia cannot exist until all sides agree to disagree - this includes both theists and atheists.

Can we not say FUCK Jesus? Yes, if we want; I just choose not to.

Can we not say FUCK Rakjavik? Yes, I suppose we could do that too, if we want; I just choose not to.

Originally Posted by Lëzen

...And because Humanism so obviously equates to atheism, theists are all ill-willed bigots who disregard everything Humanists stand for as sinful, irrational, blasphemous and ignorant, right? Those who have faith in some sort of higher being have no faith in the great potential of human beings, right?

Bullfuck. That shit is entirely untrue in every aspect.

If not for religion, thousands and thousands of people would be hurling themselves off of bridges by now. Faith gives some people the will to keep on living, even when some of them know in their hearts that they don't have an awful lot to live for.

And yet because some dicks who claim themselves to be messengers of God/Allah/Zeus/whatever intentionally misinterpret the words of holy texts to fit them to their own warped desires - so that they can gain complete dominion over everyone else who shares the same faith by means of coercion - everyone who believes in something spiritual is somehow inherently counterproductive in the never-ending human quest for finding utopia?

I'm not sure if you knew this, but in even in a utopia, not everyone is in total agreeance about everything. The thing that separates the utopia from the dystopia is that in the dystopia, people harm or kill each other for having conflicting beliefs, and that in the utopia, people peacefully agree to disagree and leave it at that. You're acting as though all atheists take the "agree to disagree" route while all theists take the "believe what I say or I'll hurt you" route. Not only is the latter totally untrue, but there are many atheists out there who have indeed committed acts of violence against theists for their "irrational beliefs in a silly all-powerful wizard".

So you're an idealist. Good for you. However, I, like Needcatscan, am a realist. The "Humanist" part of atheists like you fails to realize that all the good little things like love, tolerance, forgiveness, and believing in yourself - and all that crap - is not the only thing that makes us human; it is what you call "human ugliness" - things like hatred, intolerance, the notion of revenge and feelings of Schadenfreude that also make us human. A good side cannot exist without a bad side.

That said, utopia cannot exist until all sides agree to disagree - this includes both theists and atheists.

Can we not say FUCK Jesus? Yes, if we want; I just choose not to.

Can we not say FUCK Rakjavik? Yes, I suppose we could do that too, if we want; I just choose not to.

I would have to agree with Rak's overall message in that to have a utopian society we would have to grow out of religion, or more specifically religious dogma. There's no way we can have a society that accepts everyone while we still have religious texts that support things like homophobia (prop 8, ugh) and are so exclusive that everyone that doens't believe in their holy book of myths rots in hell. So I agree with him, I just don't see it happening any time soon. It took us around 100 million years as homosapiens to get to the point we are at now, it will probably take another 100 million to become a world united in peace.

And I don't think anyone should put so much hope in Obama. I definitely feel like electing him is a step in the right direction, but he's not as god (or the anti-christ, although that would be cool as hell), he is a man who appears to know what he is doing and has his priorities and heart in the right place (and I'm going to get a tax cut if he sticks to his campaign promises). But he's still a politician and this is still America, so a healthy skepticism is in order.

And according to Wiki: Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appealing to universal human qualities, particularly rationality. Yes, humanism is exclusive to atheists/agnostics/deists.

When in doubt, just remember that I am awesome.

utopia

The only way to achieve utopia is to wipe out everyone's brains so that they all live like vegetables. Is this really what you want?

Originally Posted by hungrymanz

When in doubt, just remember that I am awesome.


The only way to achieve utopia is to wipe out everyone's brains so that they all live like vegetables. Is this really what you want?

A vegetopia? Here's hoping for that

Lëzen, I am sorry if I offended you by making it sound like all theists were asshole bigots that are destroying the world. I was referring to dogmatic literalists. As Needcatscan said, I am referring to anyone who takes their religion serious enough to where they look down upon their fellow man for not believing or being what their religion says they should be.

You said that humanism is not just a atheistic quality. I agree. There are some religious people that are humanists to the extent that they want the best for the human race. I just do not count anyone who helps humanity with an ulterior motive of converting them to their religion as a humanist.

You're acting as though all atheists take the "agree to disagree" route while all theists take the "believe what I say or I'll hurt you" route.

This was truly not my intention. I am not equating all theists with radical Islam. Just to use the USA as an example, how many atheists look at people and think, "that poor guy, he's not saved and is going to burn in hell"? This is just a blanket statement on the average christian. I am not judging all of them because I know that they are not all the same. I think though that I can stay in logical accuracy by stating that this is the majority.

So you're an idealist. Good for you. However, I, like Needcatscan, am a realist. The "Humanist" part of atheists like you fails to realize that all the good little things like love, tolerance, forgiveness, and believing in yourself - and all that crap - is not the only thing that makes us human; it is what you call "human ugliness" - things like hatred, intolerance, the notion of revenge and feelings of Schadenfreude that also make us human. A good side cannot exist without a bad side.

I agree with you. This is humanity at this point. I am thinking about humanity in the distant future.

And I don't think anyone should put so much hope in Obama. I definitely feel like electing him is a step in the right direction, but he's not as god

I agree. I think it is a start. One man cannot change this world, but as you said, it is a start in the right direction.

t took us around 100 million years as homosapiens to get to the point we are at now, it will probably take another 100 million to become a world united in peace.

As much as an idealists as I am, I am also realistic. I agree with this although I hope that it will happen much sooner then a 100 million years.

Can utopia be achieved? Not anytime soon. Can I as an individual start looking at people just as different and not necessarily wrong? Maybe. It is a hard road to acceptance of other people and tolerance of different ideals and philosophies (err sorry theists for some of my previous posts ) But we can get there eventually. (someone please invent warp drive so that the Vulcans will detect it and make first contact and bring the human race together. Because I really want to meet Captain Picard!)

Originally Posted by Needcatscan

A vegetopia? Here's hoping for that

bananas are very tasty vegetables

We must remember that Religious dogma is the problem not good hearted people.