Thread: Abortion

Last but not least, Photolysis. Perhaps I didn't explain well enough, I chose Christianity because I believed it to be the CORRECT "religion" as you call it. If I did choose the Koran or something else, you would have asked the same.

You're absolutely right, if you had chosen Islam, I would have rephrased my question accordingly. You still have not explained why you believe it to be the right one.

Anyway, you guys seem bent on ignoring my every word so I am done with the subject.

Do you even know what ignoring something is? We are challenging what you say. That's what this forum does.

As to your second statment perhaps you should do some research as well of the founding fathers and some years before.

Religious freedom was one of the things people sought when they came to the US, but it certainly wasn't the only one. And guess what, religious freedom does not come from religion! Christianity, Islam, etc all state they are the true religion, and that infidels and heretics are subhuman. If these religions were in power, there would be no religious freedom.

Therefore, you cannot claim that your nation was founded on Christian principles.

Also, since you seem so bent on requiring evidence, feel free to watch the video "Exodus Revieled" (spelling?) where they found plenty of proof relating to the time of Moses.

Proof of what?

Now to try and answer your questions, though you say if we take away abortions what about the people getting raped, non-wanted pregnancies, etc because I think it is right we will have the problems etc etc. Well yes, I think we should get rid of abortions because it is wrong. (As I explained above why I think so) But if you think about it, if people DID THE RIGHT THING and wouldn't rape people and or have sex unless they wanted a child we wouldn't have those problems! Of course we are human and it is impossible to have a perfect world. There WILL be rapers, unwanted pregnancies and such. But I am sure you have heard the popular saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right!" and I have to agree. God says we reap what we sow. In other words, if we sin we will recieve the consequences, if we do good we will recieve the rewards. He doesn't expect us to be perfect, that is why He sent Jesus. He forgives us, but it doesn't mean we WON'T still see the consequences. If some foolish teenager goes and gets herself pregnant, well she is going to have to deal with the consequences. If she is married then it is the husbands responsibility to take care of her so then it would be both their responsibility. (But personaly I find it foolish to get married that young either way)

So basically, you are in favour of women not only having to go with the horrendous experience of being raped, and the severe emotional and physical trauma that involves, but then to have to raise an unwanted child, potentially destroying their entire lives, costing large amounts of money, and again, even more emoitonal trauma?

Or that the woman should be forced to endure a pregnancy she never wanted and all the pains that involves, and then have to give the child up, again at the expense of more emotional trauma?

Either way, you're in favour of hindering women from healing from arguably one of the most traumatic experiences possible, as well as burdening them further emotionally and physically, all so you can preach your self-rightous crap about how your god will reward a person for it?

How any kind of morality that thinks increased suffering is a virtue and then has the audacity to declare itself the pinacle of morality is staggering.

You sir, are truely a horrible person if you think that. I can only be thankful you do not have power so you cannot force your sickening morality on anyone else.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

Such kind words. You know people, it is possible to have a debate and/or exchange of ideas without trying to bash the other persons skull

I agree, to the people who are ad-homineming, cut it out; this guy is actually trying to debate here, don't be assholes.

DID THE RIGHT THING . . . [not] have sex unless they wanted a child

This was my biggest beef with what you said. If there is one thing I remember quite clearly about my upbringing, it was teaching that sex was a dirty thing that wasn't even supposed to be talked about (or pretended that it didn't even exist) until marriage. We have evolved by nature to have a strong desire for sex after we reach puberty, and Christians teach that it is a terrible thing to have pre-marital sex (and the majority teach the same about masturbation) even though we're wired that way. This is flat out wrong and damaging to kids, trust me, I know personally.

Now talking to Needcatscan, I am sorry to hear that you have fallen like you did. I pray to God that I will not go down a similar road. If I do, I will willingly provide you guys with a laugh and tell you so. It would be the least I deserve. But one note, you say you had "unshakeable faith" aparently you were wrong because it has failed you. Though God states that if you read the Bible and pray every day then your faith will grow and strengthen. Tell me honestly, were you doing that when you were going through tough times?

If you want, let me know and I'll send you a detailed deconversion story, otherwise, believe me when I say I was a VERY strong Christian, I read the Bible often, memorized dozens of verses, prayed every day, went to church 2-3 days a week, went to every bible camp, was a leader in my youth group, and had a strong relationship with god (or so I thought). I was even a strong young-earth creationist, Kent Hovind & Ken Ham style.

If I were in your shoes I'd be afraid to even be on this forum though; because faith is a funny thing, as soon as you swim to the top of the Christian fishbowl and peer out you realize how fabricated your whole worldview really is.

BTW thanks for posting, it's good to have someone to debate with instead of throwing red meat to the wolves of atheism all the time.

Damn it I can't resist feeding the troll.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

First off, about the U.S. if you didn't know the United States was created because of a desire for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Yes, people like to drop out the first word. Do a little research on the founding fathers and some time before. I am not here to debate about that however so this is the end of that discussion for me.

Second, Sandform, we have something called a concious that is built into us. No matter where we are raised, when we are raised, or who we were raised by, if you go out and kill some innocent guy walking on the street you will feel guilt. It is possible to ignore your concious, or "block" your concious as I like to say it, after some time but we all start out with one. So no, I don't think you are correct.

Religious freedom? Don't you mean freedom FROM religion? They left because they didn't like the particular brand of religi-evil that was being forced on them by the state. By leaving they could decide to force THEIR OWN brand on each other. But that is beyond the point. Our country is founded on many different people, religious and irreligious. What it was founded ON is a very secular constitution however.

Of course, cause those men and women around the world who ENJOY killing for no reason...who join the army just for the privilege of killing, who never once think twice about what they've done. (block your conscience? My ass some people have no conscience).

But, since you're avoiding the point, I don't think mutilating my penis is a part of morality, I don't think that beating unruly children is a part of morality. I don't think going to an arbitrary denomination of an arbitrary belief system's place of worship is a part of morality.

For those who are just saying /junk/ in his face without saying any kind of reason (I'm talking about those who are cussing), please at least say why you think that sounds wrong to you. To him, it is the right way, but you may not think that way. So, instead of just swearing at him, at least say why that sounds wrong to you.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

First off, about the U.S. if you didn't know the United States was created because of a desire for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Yes, people like to drop out the first word. Do a little research on the founding fathers and some time before. I am not here to debate about that however so this is the end of that discussion for me.

Europeans left their land because they were forced to believe in one religion. Their king would kill them, saying it was treason for going against the church. They had permanent classes. Meaning the peasants were always peasants. The middle-class were always the middle class, and the higher class shall always stay as the higher class. The king forced religious laws on the people. He was the divine chosen by God, and if going against what he had said, they were going to hell. He used hell as a fear factor on these people.

The king forced the peasants to pay up, and he kept them poor. If they were caught hiding money, they were killed. They had not enough money for enough food to survive. They left the land for these reasons. They wanted to have freedom. They were seeking America, even if they knew the dangers that they would face when traveling over seas. They did it because of their desire for opportunity.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

Third, Sirenity, to start off, I am not saying anything about your beliefs in general. The main reason I commented on this topic is because of your beliefs stated under the title of Christian, when honestly I don't know how you can call yourself one. (I am not trying to be a jerk I will explain) I say this because 1. you say you don't believe in the whole Bible, it is like reading only a few pages of a novel then declaring to everyone that you have read the book and know what it is about. 2. It seems to me that you treat Christianity as "just another religion" instead of actual truth. (Except for Jesus dieing for you, but if you don't believe in Hell what was the point of that?)

Ok, can you please spell my name right? It is Serenity. Sorry, it was bugging me.

I do believe the word of God, the Bible. It is just I believe it more so as morals. I do not take the Bible literally as it says. I try to take meaning out of the scriptures, not believe exactly word for word. Many people will read the Bible, and will translate it as being different. It is just like English literature. You read the story, and find the theme of the story. A theme means subject + opinion. Not just a subject. Because themes have an opinion, they are debatable. This is why the Bible could mean so many different ways, not just one way.

It was in another language and translated millions of times to other languages. So, what are the chances that there has been something changed during the process of all those years? The Bible was in fact written by men, who chose scriptures. I wonder how many were left out, or if they changed it around. We are in fact human, and we do sin. So, the chances of trying to hide something secret can in fact be a possibility.

I accept Christianity because of the experiences I have went through in my life. I have experienced things which people may never accept. Because of this and other reasons, I do believe that a God does exist. God is everything, everywhere, and inside all of us. I call him a he but I believe he isn't a he/she. Males were(still are considering the stereotypes floating around.) represented as powerful, and strong. That is the reason why the Bible called him a he. To me, he is an entity. A mysterious energy that is a part of all of us, the world, and the universe. A powerful energy that no one would be able to explain. We all have a piece of him inside of all of us. Energy can never be created or destroyed. When we die we go to God/heaven/the light/energy. I believe in reincarnation because of the fact energy can never be destroyed or created (meaning if the fetus does die, they'd have another chance in life).

I do not believe there is a hell because of this. I do believe there are negative, and positive energies. One may dwell on the Earth for the sins they have kept inside for so long. Jesus fought that. He died to heal the world. The negative energies that were building up. God is forgiving, he sent Jesus down to change the world. To help humanity and open new doors to them.

I am a Christian because I want to help the world. I will teach those about God, but in a way that is different. I show them by letting them know the love of God. The way of love is, caring, understanding, nourishing, etc. I will always look at both sides of a story, and find a way to solve it. I'm usually the one solving my friend's problems. Also, I do believe the miracles in the Bible.

There are branches in Christianity that believe in reincarnation. I did not make this all up. My family believes in this too. Just like the way you grew up in a family that taught you their religious beliefs.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

Now to try and answer your questions, though you say if we take away abortions what about the people getting raped, non-wanted pregnancies, etc because I think it is right we will have the problems etc etc. Well yes, I think we should get rid of abortions because it is wrong. (As I explained above why I think so) But if you think about it, if people DID THE RIGHT THING and wouldn't rape people and or have sex unless they wanted a child we wouldn't have those problems! Of course we are human and it is impossible to have a perfect world. There WILL be rapers, unwanted pregnancies and such. But I am sure you have heard the popular saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right!" and I have to agree. God says we reap what we sow. In other words, if we sin we will recieve the consequences, if we do good we will recieve the rewards. He doesn't expect us to be perfect, that is why He sent Jesus. He forgives us, but it doesn't mean we WON'T still see the consequences. If some foolish teenager goes and gets herself pregnant, well she is going to have to deal with the consequences. If she is married then it is the husbands responsibility to take care of her so then it would be both their responsibility. (But personaly I find it foolish to get married that young either way)

I will never accept this as an answer for this will only cause suffering. Their soul will suffer, and if it gets worse, they dwell upon it. When a girl becomes pregnant, it is scary. They become emotional, fearful, etc. The ones who fear it so much become suicidal. The women who have no family support will suffer the most. They will not be able to have enough money to go to a college. They will be forced to work for low pay. Will be in debt, and barely be able to pay for keeping herself, and the child alive. She could put the child through adoption. Though, they had suffered 9 months of pregnancy, and might feel horrible to just let the child go, or never forget those months they had to live through. No matter what, this is negative.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

Anyway, you guys seem bent on ignoring my every word so I am done with the subject. I have had my say and I will let you guy decide what to do with it. However, if people are actually INTERESTED in what I say and want to have a civil discussion or exchange of ideas, send me a PM.

Do I sound like I was ignoring you?

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

P.S. I forgot to mention. I talked to my mom about this topic a bit and she mentioned to me that a little over a month ago there was a girl at the age of 9 that had a baby. They both lived. She said she wasn't supposed to be developed enough to even have a child yet she did and they are both fine.

The fact that you went to your mother to ask about this instead of searching for it yourself, astonishes me. She may of had the baby through a c-section. Did you know, here in America, it cost money to have a baby? If that girl didn't have support from her family, then she would of suffered.

It would be best to have abortions be acceptable. For those who have religious beliefs can do what they believe is right. While the other women, girls, teens who do not want to go through a pregnancy should be allowed to have an abortion. No one has the right to tell others what to do. That is immoral to me because it would hurt their feelings. If someone is hurt then the person who caused it made a sin.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Obviously they're pushing their beliefs on you. However, I'm not so sure that they are purposely lying to you. Christians are never very good when it comes to stating science correctly. They were probably lied to themselves by propaganda and thought that it was true.

No, they are not pushing their beliefs on me, they do understand my side, and they have told me it makes sense to them(Ok, maybe they are just a lil'bit pushing it on me... <.<"). Though, you are right about the propaganda, maybe that's where they got it.