Thread: Atheists, I've Found Your God.

...hole.

As an atheist who could not perceive any god-fearing tendencies in my thought patterns, I often wondered what made me different from theists, or what I was missing. Well, I've found it, and I'm willing to bet that all of you atheists out there share with me this "God Hole", as I call it.

The God Hole resides in the upper echelons of the perceived hierarchy of human society. I got my first inkling of its existence when I was in New York one time. I had a mini-epiphany and suddenly realized that the city was really just a mass of steel, cement, and ordinary people. And yet when I was in it, my actions were heavily influenced by a dense, half-seen web of officiousness and authority.

The easiest way I've come up with to expand this idea and make you relate to it is a challenge: I challenge you to prove to me, empirically, that the state of Rhode Island exists (or whatever country/state you happen to reside in).

The point is, the concept of "Rhode Island" almost operates at the level of convention. There is no physical Rhode Island to speak of, and the government officials of the state are really just ordinary people in suits. We all pretend it exists, and so, for all intents and purposes, it does. Here's the clincher: God is the same. Within religious networks, the concept of God is really just a few social rungs above the atheist concept of the state or country.

Hopefully you will be able to see your tendency to obey perceived social authorities (whether they have a physical basis or not), and from this gain a better understanding of the theist's mind.

Holy shit it's thegnome.

Where have you been...?

Then in the same way, you, the person, don't exist; you're just a mass of proteins...

Yup.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Holy shit it's thegnome.

Where have you been...?

Seconds this question. I miss your juggling and art, Gnome.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Holy shit it's thegnome.

Where have you been...?

Puberty. (Hah don't know how to answer that... just kind of wandered off I guess)

Originally Posted by Abra

Seconds this question. I miss your juggling and art, Gnome.

I've already made a new juggling thread. I have new photography if you'd like, too

Originally Posted by TimeStopper

Then in the same way, you, the person, don't exist; you're just a mass of proteins...

Not really. If by "I, the person", you mean "my consciousness", then it's hard to evaluate your analogy since no one knows what the fuck consciousness really is at this point (if you'll pardon my french). Otherwise, a better analogy would be that "my arm" does not exist as a specific part of me. But that's still missing the point. The point is that we are evolutionarily predisposed to fit snugly into hierarchical social structures, and that all of us are guilty, to some extent, of being prone to obeying non-existent authorities.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Holy shit it's thegnome.

Where have you been...?

Probing his godhole, obviously.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

We all pretend it exists, and so, for all intents and purposes, it does.

It sounds like you've made significant progress in understanding that mythic symbol sets possess a degree of reality at least equal to our own. "Pretend," however, is inexact, as is the claim that there is "no physical basis." We do not pretend that Rhode Island exists, and it does have a physical basis. The rock, plants and flesh of Rhode Island are insufficient to generate or reveal the state, and arguably are not its principal aspect, but they are necessary to its existence. The activity of the citizens of Rhode Island is likewise necessary to its existence, but that activity is not pretense; indeed, the state is more influential and persists longer than any of its members.

The same can be said of any god or system of gods. All generate and arise from physical artifacts, both natural and man-made, but those materials are neither sufficient nor central to the symbol set.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

It sounds like you've made significant progress in understanding that mythic symbol sets possess a degree of reality at least equal to our own. "Pretend," however, is inexact, as is the claim that there is "no physical basis." We do not pretend that Rhode Island exists, and it does have a physical basis.

Yeah, I agree. I exaggerated a bit to try to make my point more clear.

"Rhode Island" is the name of a chunk of land. "The State of Rhode Island" is an even longer name for said chunk.

I don't see what that has to do with calling nothingness "God." But I liked your post, it was thought-inspiring.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

"Rhode Island" is the name of a chunk of land. "The State of Rhode Island" is an even longer name for said chunk.

I don't see what that has to do with calling nothingness "God." But I liked your post, it was thought-inspiring.

Actually, the official name is "Rhode Island Providence and Plantations" (it's the longest state name, as well as the smallest state. Napoleon complex, much?)

My point was more about Rhode Island as a social structure, though - the governor etc. The same goes for the entire U.S.A.

Oh, come on! I just convinced myself that states exist a few weeks ago, by designing a glow-in-the-dark fence to go along state lines.

Anyway, as you say, Rhode Island as a social structure does exist. Rhode Island as a physiocal structure does not, it is merely the typical boundaries of a social structure as projected onto the geography.

As for The God Hole, yeah, gods, as far as atheists (and psychosomatic pantheists) believe, are all merely ideas that humans had and convinced pther humans to follow. Typically, a god would begin weither as a way to say "Because I say so" with more authority ("because our gods say so"), or to apply a reason to continue with morals when you are unlikely to be caught by any mortal law enforcement ("I don't want you to kill me, and I know you could convince the centurions that you didn;t do it, but god knows you did and you'll go to hell anyway.") Eventually, the ideas expanded. (By the way, I do know that gods actually typically start as a myth or metaphor to explain something people don;t understand, generally in an entertainign way, but that's not what I mean by god in this case.)

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

"Rhode Island" is the name of a chunk of land. "The State of Rhode Island" is an even longer name for said chunk.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

The rock, plants and flesh of Rhode Island are insufficient to generate or reveal the state, and arguably are not its principal aspect.

.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

Hopefully you will be able to see your tendency to obey perceived social authorities (whether they have a physical basis or not), and from this gain a better understanding of the theist's mind.

This smacks of strawmannery - one can't just assume that all atheists 'believe' in the political state of Rhode Island as a 'real' entity.

Originally Posted by archdreamer

This smacks of strawmannery - one can't just assume that all atheists 'believe' in the political state of Rhode Island as a 'real' entity.

I'm just using Rhode Island as a fairly concrete example here. What I'm really trying to get at is the concept of officiousness, authority, and order. The subtle feelings that I get when I'm in a city which makes it feel like something "more" than a bunch of metal and people.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Of course we do give huge amounts of power to people, because it is necessary, but I wouldn't go as far to say that since we group things together in our minds in order to make life easier we are using such practices to fill our "god hole."

I'm not saying we're subconsciously trying to fill a gap left by being atheists. If I dare quote myself,

Atheists might say that theists have an extra, invisible rung on their social ladder. My point is that the rungs you cling to yourself are not as palpable as you might think.

My point is that these concepts of social authorities are where the concept of a God springs from in the theistic mind. Our social hierarchy seems perfectly normal and concrete to us in much the same way as a God does to a believer. When further probed, however, it's not really all that "sensible".

Originally Posted by Sandform

Does Rhode Island exist? Yes. Rhode Island exists as whatever we define it as that is observable.

What makes Rhode Island different from Connecticut? What I'm trying to get at is that these states only exist through the actions of people who believe they exist. If everyone decided that Rhode Island didn't exist anymore tomorrow... well, then it wouldn't. It's not something that exists outside of human society. Looking for proof of Rhode Island in human behavioral patterns is like looking for proof of God in the bible.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I guess what I'm trying to say is that since your reality is the only one that can exist for you, whatever you define something as in your mind that is capable of being observed does exist.

If you go the route of saying something like "Rhode Island exists because maps all show it, everyone knows about it, and state police will not operate beyond its borders", then would you count that as "observed proof"? Because in the same vein, you could say "God exists because the bible says it, all religious people know about him, and people go to church every Sunday to pray to him".

D'ye ken?

I deleted my last post...sort of I'm going to try to reply without talky talky too much.

I can sympathise with your point that God is a knotch higher on the political totem pole. But as we all know Batman from Batman Begins made himself higher than God. "I swear to god!" "I want you to swear to me!"

Anyways.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

If you go the route of saying something like "Rhode Island exists because maps all show it, everyone knows about it, and state police will not operate beyond its borders", then would you count that as "observed proof"? Because in the same vein, you could say "God exists because the bible says it, all religious people know about him, and people go to church every Sunday to pray to him".

D'ye ken?

***Edit:By the way I think you missunderstood what I was saying when you replied with this. with ""God exists because the bible says it, all religious people know about him, and people go to church every Sunday to pray to him"." In this scenario using the logic I was trying to argue God would only exist if God is defined as "the bible saying God exists, religious people knowing him, and people going to church to pray to him." However God is defined as the being they are praying to, not the act of them praying to him...I hope that this makes more sense to you.***

To change your quote a bit I will show you what I'm actually saying vs. what you think I'm saying.

" you could say "God religion exists because the bible says it, all religious people know about himcarry out actions of religion, and people go to church every Sunday to pray to himbecause of it.".


Rhode Island existing is liken to Christianity existing, not God. Obviously the religion Christianity exists. Rhode Island is the actions of individuals, the same as religion. Of course there is more to Rhode Island than that but you get the idea.

overthinking.

Originally Posted by Acid

overthinking.

If you're going to necro post make sure you have something of VALUE to add to the discussion. Also don't post in threads that are 2+ years old. K thanks.

If everybody could just let this sink... that'd be awesome...

The point is, the concept of "Rhode Island" almost operates at the level of convention. There is no physical Rhode Island to speak of, and the government officials of the state are really just ordinary people in suits. We all pretend it exists, and so, for all intents and purposes, it does. Here's the clincher: God is the same. Within religious networks, the concept of God is really just a few social rungs above the atheist concept of the state or country.

Very interesting thought

Originally Posted by thegnome54

There is no physical Rhode Island to speak of

Rhode Island is one of 50 federated states that share sovereignty with the federal government of the United States of America. It has clearly defined borders, within which the state government operates. It's geographical boundaries exist only because laws written by men, but they do exist, and they can be clearly defined.

We all pretend it exists, and so, for all intents and purposes, it does.

We don't pretend it exists, it does. If I were to violate the laws of Rhode Island within it's geographical borders I would be subject to punishment by it's laws. However, if I were to eat pork, fornicate with several women, or blaspheme the name of Jesus Christ, I would not be subject to any sort of punishment by God. Why? Because unlike the God, which does not exist, the state of Rhode Island is a political and legal entity that can be observed in action. I challenge you to find observable, testable, evidence of God punishing anyone.

Here's the clincher: God is the same. Within religious networks, the concept of God is really just a few social rungs above the atheist concept of the state or country.

Here's where you're wrong: man can will a state into existence, he can not, however, will a self contradictory supernatural being into existence. God may seem very real to those who believe in him, but the fact of the matter is that there is no evidence that he exists in any way, shape or form.