Thread: "Choosing to Believe" 2 + 2 = 5: The Interviews

Originally Posted by ClouD

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"It" (being 2 + 2), is everchanging too.
x + x = x
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I have not been illogical. Saying that 2 is definite, 5 is definite, + and = are definite and that all their meanings are definite, then the outcome will be definite.

In other words, you are asking me to believe in 2 + 2 = 5, yet telling me that 2 + 2 = 4. This is illogical.

There was one logical way to defend against the incoming strike - to say that at least one or more of the symbols/numbers are indefinite.

I found that it made most logic for all the symbols and numbers are indefinite.

If 2 does not equal '2', 5 does not equal '5', + and = don't equal '+' and '=', then 2 + 2 = 5.

If you were to say that the symbols are definite, then fine.
2 'plus' 2 'equals' 5.

Yes or no: When writing that, did you HONESTLY believe that 2 + 2 = 5?

You keep suggesting that you are playing lawyer for the argument. That is not what this challenge is about. I am talking about REALLY believing that 2 + 2 = 5. Is that the case with you?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Personaly I think you're joking/trolling.

Yes, ChaybaChayba is just another troll.

Originally Posted by Xei

If 4 equals 5 then any number could be anything if you extend your argument, then. For example,

e = e * 4/5 = e * 5/4 = e * 4^2/5^2 = e * 5^2/4^2 = e * 4^3/5^3 = e * 5^3/4^3

etcetera. If 4 equals 5, then it follows that any number you choose can actually take any range of values from 0 to infinity. Which is ridiculous and meaningless, of course.

I assumed not all logic was discarded while taking the 2+2=5 belief, keeping proportionality in the numbers. (4=5, 2=2.5, 8=10, etc)

The point is, can anyone actually believe that two coke cans when set next to two more coke cans will equal five coke cans. If they know what four coke cans means. Or rather, can they choose to believe such. If you actually believed this and you were a good person, or a greedy person, then you would continously put them next to eachother to get that fifth coke can and sell/give it away.

Originally Posted by Sandform

The point is, can anyone actually believe that two coke cans when set next to two more coke cans will equal five coke cans. If they know what four coke cans means. Or rather, can they choose to believe such.

I can't think why they would choose to believe that. 2+2=4. Frankly I don't see how this thread has gotten so big trying to make math into some philosophical discussion thing, with 5 being a symbol for 4 and shit like that, jeez, no matter what the symbol is, 4 is 4!

Originally Posted by Kael Seoras

I can't think why they would choose to believe that. 2+2=4. Frankly I don't see how this thread has gotten so big trying to make math into some philosophical discussion thing, with 5 being a symbol for 4 and shit like that, jeez, no matter what the symbol is, 4 is 4!

Exactly, this whole thread was in resposne to Chayba saying that a person can choose to believe anything. That one could "choose" to believe in such and such religion regardless of their own logic, which is just incorrect.

...it's definitley not as simple as choice...it's ruled by inherent knowledge about the world...taking this 2+2=4 example, we inherently know that 2 objects plus another 2 objects makes 4 objects...how do you argue that?

Sorry if I'm repeating stuff already said, I find myself unable to read this thread in its entirety.

Who wants to do the first interview?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Who wants to do the first interview?

I would fail cause I believe 2 + 2 = 4

OMG lol

Originally Posted by Sandform

I would fail cause I believe 2 + 2 = 4

You and EVERYBODY ELSE.

Makes me wonder how this thread got to four pages from debate on the subject...

Originally Posted by Kael Seoras

...it's definitley not as simple as choice...it's ruled by inherent knowledge about the world...taking this 2+2=4 example, we inherently know that 2 objects plus another 2 objects makes 4 objects...how do you argue that?

Sorry if I'm repeating stuff already said, I find myself unable to read this thread in its entirety.

I claimed I can choose to believe what I want, but I can't choose to know what I want, agreed. If I could do that, I could chose to know everything that is knowable, which is obviously not possible and completely irrelevant to this subject.

However, if you talk about the believe of the phrase '2+2=5', then yes I can choose to believe this mathematical equation is right, like I have demonstrated over 10 times now. And I can demonstrate it many times in many different ways.

If I choose to believe the binary operator '+' means something else, then I can make 2+2 = 5.
If I choose to believe the operator '=' is '!=', then I can make 2+2=5.
If I choose to believe the symbol for four is actually 5, then I can make 2+2=5.

If it was 2+2=4 in maths, then yes it's a belief, and you can change it, like I demonstrated.
If you're talking about 2 objects next to 2 objects make 4, eventhen, I can choose to believe I'm in a dream and it'll make 5, or I can choose to believe the objects are rocks, and one of them break and make 5 rocks. But I cant choose my knowledge of two unbreakable objects put next to two other unbreakable objects make 4 unbreakable objects. But the equation 2+2=5 doesn't tell me wether the objects are breakable or not, this is something you assume.

2+2=4 in the math system is an equation based on a believe system.
2 objects put next to 2 objects making 4 objects is inherent knowledge.

I'm talking about beliefs, and other people are apparently talking about inherent knowledge. I didn't take into account people didn't know the difference between beliefs and inherent knowledge.

Claiming beliefs are the exact same thing as inherent knowledge, is like claiming your believe or disbelieve in God is also inherent knowledge. If it were inherent knowledge, please do demonstrate, and please do explain howcome some people believe in God and others don't.

The whole discussion about choosing your believes turned into some retarded discussion about people claiming "Beliefs = inherent knowledge"..

The relationship between belief and knowledge is subtle. Believers in a claim typically say that they know that claim. For instance, those who believe that the Sun is a god will report that they know that the Sun is a god. However, the terms belief and knowledge are used differently by philosophers.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

However, if you talk about the believe of the phrase '2+2=5', then yes I can choose to believe this mathematical equation is right, like I have demonstrated over 10 times now. And I can demonstrate it many times in many different ways.

If I choose to believe the binary operator '+' means something else, then I can make 2+2 = 5.
If I choose to believe the operator '=' is '!=', then I can make 2+2=5.
If I choose to believe the symbol for four is actually 5, then I can make 2+2=5.

How hard is it to understand? You are not supposed to change the symbols. You are supposed to believe the actual content of the symbolic representation "2+2=5" in standard maths notation.

But I cant choose my knowledge of two unbreakable objects put next to two other unbreakable objects make 4 unbreakable objects. But the equation 2+2=5 doesn't tell me wether the objects are breakable or not, this is something you assume.

Things breaking isn't actually part of maths, you know. This has been explained before. If 1 breaks in half, you end up with 2 x 0.5, simple. Don't they teach you anything in school?

2+2=4 in the math system is an equation based on a believe system.

A system of symbols is a language and not a belief system.

2 objects put next to 2 objects making 4 objects is inherent knowledge.

I'm talking about beliefs, and other people are apparently talking about inherent knowledge. I didn't take into account people didn't know the difference between beliefs and inherent knowledge.

1. There is no difference. Knowledge is belief that is certain.

2. You just admitted your defeat. You said that you can believe anything by choice. Now you are reducing it to things that are not "inherent knowledge". Well, what does that mean? It means that you can only believe things for which there are no rational reasons to believe otherwise. While that is still an outlandish claim, it's not as outlandish as your previous claim.

Claiming beliefs are the exact same thing as inherent knowledge, is like claiming your believe or disbelieve in God is also inherent knowledge.

Honest belief in God is a form of knowledge because it is associated with certainty.

If it were inherent knowledge, please do demonstrate, and please do explain howcome some people believe in God and others don't.

Only because something is false doesn't mean you can't know it. In science no knowledge is absolutely certain. That doesn't mean it's just vague beliefs. Knowledge is a psychological phenomenon with no metaphysical properties connected to it.

Just the fact that you're arguing with me is already enough evidence that I can indeed choose what I believe. If I couldn't choose what I believed in, we would have the exact same beliefs, and there would be no discussion.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Just the fact that you're arguing with me is already enough evidence that I can indeed choose what I believe. If I couldn't choose what I believed in, we would have the exact same beliefs, and there would be no discussion.

facepalm.png

Slapping your own face will not make my argument go away. Try again.

Chayba, I have something to say.

I'll make it very clear. I'll explain this thread, okay?

Now lean in close... Are you listening?

Do you believe that 2 + 2 = 5 in any and all circumstances?

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Chayba, I have something to say.

I'll make it very clear. I'll explain this thread, okay?

Now lean in close... Are you listening?

Do you believe that 2 + 2 = 5 in any and all circumstances?

Ignoring my argument won't make my argument go away.

You're very much like an ostrich.

Really?

Well that's funny because I'm not the one dodging the questions...

I already answered the questions over 20 times. Any answer I give will result in you claiming I "dodge" the question. We've already been through this, you're repeating yourself. As long as you keep ignoring all my answers, we will keep going in circles.

Your question is "Can you choose to believe?"
My answer is "Yes."

How dodgy.

Chayba the answer is yes or no.

Answer it.

If I would have answered "No" this topic woudn't even exist. You completely fail at logic. This topic is the proof I already answered the question long time ago.

So then you answered yes and do in fact whole-heartedly believe that 2 + 2 = 5?

I said yes to the question wether I can choose to believe 2+2=5. Learn to read. It's right there in the topic. Pull your head out of the sand.

UM speicifcally asked whether you actually do believe.

So dodged the question.

So why are you still here?