Thread: "Choosing to Believe" 2 + 2 = 5: The Interviews

Originally Posted by Kael Seoras

...it's definitley not as simple as choice...it's ruled by inherent knowledge about the world...taking this 2+2=4 example, we inherently know that 2 objects plus another 2 objects makes 4 objects...how do you argue that?

Sorry if I'm repeating stuff already said, I find myself unable to read this thread in its entirety.

I claimed I can choose to believe what I want, but I can't choose to know what I want, agreed. If I could do that, I could chose to know everything that is knowable, which is obviously not possible and completely irrelevant to this subject.

However, if you talk about the believe of the phrase '2+2=5', then yes I can choose to believe this mathematical equation is right, like I have demonstrated over 10 times now. And I can demonstrate it many times in many different ways.

If I choose to believe the binary operator '+' means something else, then I can make 2+2 = 5.
If I choose to believe the operator '=' is '!=', then I can make 2+2=5.
If I choose to believe the symbol for four is actually 5, then I can make 2+2=5.

If it was 2+2=4 in maths, then yes it's a belief, and you can change it, like I demonstrated.
If you're talking about 2 objects next to 2 objects make 4, eventhen, I can choose to believe I'm in a dream and it'll make 5, or I can choose to believe the objects are rocks, and one of them break and make 5 rocks. But I cant choose my knowledge of two unbreakable objects put next to two other unbreakable objects make 4 unbreakable objects. But the equation 2+2=5 doesn't tell me wether the objects are breakable or not, this is something you assume.

2+2=4 in the math system is an equation based on a believe system.
2 objects put next to 2 objects making 4 objects is inherent knowledge.

I'm talking about beliefs, and other people are apparently talking about inherent knowledge. I didn't take into account people didn't know the difference between beliefs and inherent knowledge.

Claiming beliefs are the exact same thing as inherent knowledge, is like claiming your believe or disbelieve in God is also inherent knowledge. If it were inherent knowledge, please do demonstrate, and please do explain howcome some people believe in God and others don't.

The whole discussion about choosing your believes turned into some retarded discussion about people claiming "Beliefs = inherent knowledge"..

The relationship between belief and knowledge is subtle. Believers in a claim typically say that they know that claim. For instance, those who believe that the Sun is a god will report that they know that the Sun is a god. However, the terms belief and knowledge are used differently by philosophers.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

However, if you talk about the believe of the phrase '2+2=5', then yes I can choose to believe this mathematical equation is right, like I have demonstrated over 10 times now. And I can demonstrate it many times in many different ways.

If I choose to believe the binary operator '+' means something else, then I can make 2+2 = 5.
If I choose to believe the operator '=' is '!=', then I can make 2+2=5.
If I choose to believe the symbol for four is actually 5, then I can make 2+2=5.

How hard is it to understand? You are not supposed to change the symbols. You are supposed to believe the actual content of the symbolic representation "2+2=5" in standard maths notation.

But I cant choose my knowledge of two unbreakable objects put next to two other unbreakable objects make 4 unbreakable objects. But the equation 2+2=5 doesn't tell me wether the objects are breakable or not, this is something you assume.

Things breaking isn't actually part of maths, you know. This has been explained before. If 1 breaks in half, you end up with 2 x 0.5, simple. Don't they teach you anything in school?

2+2=4 in the math system is an equation based on a believe system.

A system of symbols is a language and not a belief system.

2 objects put next to 2 objects making 4 objects is inherent knowledge.

I'm talking about beliefs, and other people are apparently talking about inherent knowledge. I didn't take into account people didn't know the difference between beliefs and inherent knowledge.

1. There is no difference. Knowledge is belief that is certain.

2. You just admitted your defeat. You said that you can believe anything by choice. Now you are reducing it to things that are not "inherent knowledge". Well, what does that mean? It means that you can only believe things for which there are no rational reasons to believe otherwise. While that is still an outlandish claim, it's not as outlandish as your previous claim.

Claiming beliefs are the exact same thing as inherent knowledge, is like claiming your believe or disbelieve in God is also inherent knowledge.

Honest belief in God is a form of knowledge because it is associated with certainty.

If it were inherent knowledge, please do demonstrate, and please do explain howcome some people believe in God and others don't.

Only because something is false doesn't mean you can't know it. In science no knowledge is absolutely certain. That doesn't mean it's just vague beliefs. Knowledge is a psychological phenomenon with no metaphysical properties connected to it.

Just the fact that you're arguing with me is already enough evidence that I can indeed choose what I believe. If I couldn't choose what I believed in, we would have the exact same beliefs, and there would be no discussion.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Just the fact that you're arguing with me is already enough evidence that I can indeed choose what I believe. If I couldn't choose what I believed in, we would have the exact same beliefs, and there would be no discussion.

facepalm.png

Slapping your own face will not make my argument go away. Try again.

Chayba, I have something to say.

I'll make it very clear. I'll explain this thread, okay?

Now lean in close... Are you listening?

Do you believe that 2 + 2 = 5 in any and all circumstances?

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Chayba, I have something to say.

I'll make it very clear. I'll explain this thread, okay?

Now lean in close... Are you listening?

Do you believe that 2 + 2 = 5 in any and all circumstances?

Ignoring my argument won't make my argument go away.

You're very much like an ostrich.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

2+2=4 in the math system is an equation based on a believe system.
2 objects put next to 2 objects making 4 objects is inherent knowledge.

I'm talking about beliefs, and other people are apparently talking about inherent knowledge. I didn't take into account people didn't know the difference between beliefs and inherent knowledge.

Ok, fair enough, but if you can truly believe something that contradicts your inherent knowledge...something's off in your head.

And the question isn't "can you choose to believe 2+2=5?" We already know your answer to that. The question is "do you believe 2+2=5?"

This is why 2+2=5. The value of each number relies solely on the existence of the other numbers. If the value of each number relies on the other numbers to exist. This means all number must share the commonality of being the same value. Because each number has the same power to eliminate all the other numbers by itself. So 4 is in fact equal value and power to the existence of 5. Because without 4 there would be no 5. Since all numbers hold this same power to take on any number. No number is any different in terms of value. Even though they rely on each other for their individuality. They are still essentially the same value and borrow their individual values from the other numbers. Their unique value is therefore an illusion created by the other numbers. 2+2=5 is just skipping past this illusion that the value of the numbers actually matter. When what really matters is the existence of the numbers themself and not their particular sequences created from each number to give each number it's value.

This was very easy for me because I am a hardcore philosopher.

Great, so now all you need to do is get rid of the value '1' and mathematics will come to a screetching halt.

I think that post was a joke... I hope.

If you got rid of the value 1. Numbers would not make sense because they would not exist.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

If you got rid of the value 1. Numbers would not make sense because they would not exist.

Hence mathematics stopping.

But you yourself disproved yourself.

2 + 2 = 1 + 2 + 1, yes, but it doesn't equal one or two or one, it equal one plus two plus one.

2+2=5 should now be blatantly easy to understand.

But you yourself disproved yourself.
2 + 2 = 1 + 2 + 1, yes, but it doesn't equal one or two or one, it equal one plus two plus one.

I explained the context of both answers.