Thread: "Choosing to Believe" 2 + 2 = 5: The Interviews

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

No my inability to choose 2 and 3 is a result that I lack belief in 2 and 3. I haven't been exposed to either one so I am undecided pending further information. It's simple to understand we lack belief in concepts we are unaware of and as a result we are agnostic toward such claims.

Your choosing to believe your answers on 2 and 3 are like my choosing to believe God exists. I used to believe in God, and the idea stopped making sense to me. It was not a choice, and I can't choose now to switch my belief back.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Your choosing to believe your answers on 2 and 3 are like my choosing to believe God exists. I used to believe in God, and the idea stopped making sense to me. It was not a choice, and I can't choose now to switch my belief back.

I said I believe 2 and 3 are false, it doesn't mean I wasn't able to do anything. I made an action to believe one way or another. If you believe the same way that I believe then we should be in complete agreement that choice is a belief. Your example just supports my side of this argument more than anything. You stated you believed in god at one time and then at another time you stopped believing in him because it no longer made sense to you. The only thing to essentially understand is that regardless if outside information influenced your direction of belief, you still decided to act on something and all actions are choice driven.

The moment you've switched from one belief to another was based off an action. The moment you've initially established your belief in God previously was based off an action to do so. You had a belief that was true to you at a point in time in your life and another time in your life other information appeared in your field of vision influencing you to alter that belief to the point where now you believe your previous belief is false. As I stated before we act only on what we are aware of and for things we are oblivious to we do nothing. It really doesn't matter if the idea stopped making sense or not the fact of the matter is that, you've made an action based off something that you were aware of that did not make sense to you. Anytime you initiate an action you are deciding to "ACT" That's all there is to it. Your entire premise can be summed up as such.

Did you believe that God existence was true or false in the past?

Do you believe that God existence is true or false now?

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

To believe in fate as you do just postulates the idea that much more so regarding the fact that there is something higher than us that has mapped out our lives to the "T". You have to eventually come to grips with the fact that someone or something has an ultimate plan for you. You do not know that plan and with regards to fate you will never understand that plan but it is what it is.

Concepts like "something higher" don't mean much to me. Beside that, I've accepted the fact I'm just something following a plan a long time ago. Even though the word plan, like something higher, is just another vague concept implying intelligence, made up by the limited human psyche.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Its amazing how you can believe in Evolution where evolution signifies that Man knows exactly what's going on but then on the other hand you say that we don't have a clue to what is going on. How can we not be in control based off evolution? Science has so-called chronicled our progression from 3 million years ago and you say we do not know whats going on? We've developed theories with a high level of certainty and you say we do not know whats going on? The point I'm making is simple. In our modern world, with all that we know, it is difficult to believe that we know nothing.

“Knowing something is knowing that you know nothing at all.” Are you ready to accept that all the knowledge in the world may be relatively useless?

I don't really know where I stated we don't know all that stuff. About being ready to accept that all knowledge is relatively useless; I understand that statement as if you're talking about purpose or meaning, then yes, I've always believed those things as abstract, relative concepts made up by the human brain. I never though about the universe as something with a point to it, at least not in the everyday use of the word. If you mean knowledge as literally relatively useless, than I say it depends on ones perception of reality. If somebody thinks that life is purposeless than all knowledge is useless. If one has a purpose then knowledge isn't useless.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I don't see how that supports your claim at all? We are born into this world not having any particular belief one way or the other. You made a choice someone in your life to believe that God does not exist. I made a choice somewhere in my life to believe that God does exist in either case we both made choices to believe something. So yes belief is a choice. You didn't come into this world believing that God does not exist, you came into this world undecided pending information to be supplied, once you've received the necessary information and became aware you made a decision to believe that God is false, plain and simple.

This is the point you seem to be missing. People make choices to believe things or to believe in things. I believe myself as a millionaire is a false claim. Thats a belief I've asserted. Just because I will not switch that belief to some ridiculous claim doesn't mean I'm unable to make a choice regarding a belief. It's obvious that I've already established a belief based off a choice I made to believe, which supports that belief is a choice. How are you missing this???

We've been here before. Yes I know that's what we call making choices and as I said, nobody is disputing that fact or the fact that we make choices on thing all the time. Perhaps we'll find out it's just semantics in the end, maybe you'll see my view if I put it in this concentrated way:

What do you call an event when somebody is able to change a belief even though it's contrary to everything he is able to believe at that moment. So what would you say if some generic professor of mathematics suddenly believes that 2+2=5? Lets say we somehow know his knowledge of mathematics was unchanged in this transition. I'd call this a choice of belief, implying a real, free choice. Why? Because it's not determined by what the man knows about the subject. If he was unable to do so, I'd see that as proof that beliefs are determined.

To parallel this with another example: You have me, I don't believe I can fly. Everything I know about reality makes me believe that. So I have a formed belief (or what you would apparently call a choice) with all the appropriate rationalizations backing it up. What I would call a choice of belief is me suddenly believing I can fly, even though my image of reality was unchanged. The only way I see this as possible is via some complex mental problem. Therefore I say that for every normal person this type of choice of belief is impossible. What do you think about this?

Basically this is the way I see the difference in our thinking.
You: Information ---choice--->belief
Me: Information ------------>belief

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Bonsay I think you're a pretty decent guy and you're sincere, so I'm going to say this. We are not regulated to a life of simplicity our actions actually matter, quite the contrary, we just don’t understand how. Yes I know that may sound depressing, but realize that life is in your hands, you can define your purpose. Whether or not that purpose truly matters is debatable, as well as whether or not any purpose can be better than another but you can define the reason you like “being,” is this correct? Other than that, you have no way of knowing specifically how you will influence the universe, you can only assume that if you live life passionately, pursuing a life dedicated to wisdom and not knowledge, that your effect will be positive. In this life, that may be as good as it gets.

I understand this too. As I've said in some other debates, I've somehow split my worldview, because a specifically subjective one is inadequate if I really want to search for truth. Even though I talk about determinism and me being a chemical reaction, I'm also perfectly aware of my existential responsibilities. I don't know whether I want to give myself a purpose to live, beside just living itself. I'll leave that to life, I guess. Maybe not the important part of that quote, but I see wisdom as connected to knowledge, especially when looking at how we experience the world.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Concepts like "something higher" don't mean much to me. Beside that, I've accepted the fact I'm just something following a plan a long time ago. Even though the word plan, like something higher, is just another vague concept implying intelligence, made up by the limited human psyche.

You've accepted the fact that you're following a predetermined plan that has been mapped out for your life. It doesn't in no way interest you the maker of such a plan? But yet you know for some strange reason that it's all made up by humans? How can you possibly know such a thing without investigating the validity of such a concept? Does that even make sense to you?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I don't really know where I stated we don't know all that stuff. About being ready to accept that all knowledge is relatively useless; I understand that statement as if you're talking about purpose or meaning, then yes, I've always believed those things as abstract, relative concepts made up by the human brain. I never though about the universe as something with a point to it, at least not in the everyday use of the word. If you mean knowledge as literally relatively useless, than I say it depends on ones perception of reality. If somebody thinks that life is purposeless than all knowledge is useless. If one has a purpose then knowledge isn't useless.

To accept that your life is determined and fated, then you must also accept that you have no idea of what's going on. There is no purpose for you here as you would see it. I cannot see it being understood as anything else but purpose and meaning. When you make a statement implying that your life is just a set of predetermined events leading to some predetermined destiny, then you're just merely implying that your residency here on Earth has been decided long before you've arrived to this Planet and your conscious is just along for some ride that you know nothing of. That just doesn't fit right with me.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

We've been here before. Yes I know that's what we call making choices and as I said, nobody is disputing that fact or the fact that we make choices on thing all the time. Perhaps we'll find out it's just semantics in the end, maybe you'll see my view if I put it in this concentrated way:

What do you call an event when somebody is able to change a belief even though it's contrary to everything he is able to believe at that moment. So what would you say if some generic professor of mathematics suddenly believes that 2+2=5? Lets say we somehow know his knowledge of mathematics was unchanged in this transition. I'd call this a choice of belief, implying a real, free choice. Why? Because it's not determined by what the man knows about the subject. If he was unable to do so, I'd see that as proof that beliefs are determined.

We are not just talking about the ability to switch beliefs at any given moment. We have been talking about rather or not we have the ability to make choices period. This argument deals with free will and humans ability to make choices. You imply peoples lives are predetermined and all choices are fixed as is. If we look at the world through your eyes then no one is responsible for his/her actions and thats a scary thought if everyone felt the same way as you. It makes me appreciate that people make choices to believe one way or another that much more.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

To parallel this with another example: You have me, I don't believe I can fly. Everything I know about reality makes me believe that. So I have a formed belief (or what you would apparently call a choice) with all the appropriate rationalizations backing it up. What I would call a choice of belief is me suddenly believing I can fly, even though my image of reality was unchanged. The only way I see this as possible is via some complex mental problem. Therefore I say that for every normal person this type of choice of belief is impossible. What do you think about this?

Basically this is the way I see the difference in our thinking.
You: Information ---choice--->belief
Me: Information ------------>belief

Based off how you see the difference in our thinking, it looks as if you do not process information. If I tell you that Your car is being stolen right now, what will you do?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I understand this too. As I've said in some other debates, I've somehow split my worldview, because a specifically subjective one is inadequate if I really want to search for truth. Even though I talk about determinism and me being a chemical reaction, I'm also perfectly aware of my existential responsibilities. I don't know whether I want to give myself a purpose to live, beside just living itself. I'll leave that to life, I guess. Maybe not the important part of that quote, but I see wisdom as connected to knowledge, especially when looking at how we experience the world.

Does this statement not contradict your position? How can you be aware of your responsibilities if you believe your life is fated? You believe your life is predestined for a particular outcome and hence, you must come to terms with the fact that you have no idea what is going on, but someone or something does. If you believe that the universe is guided by some unseen ultimate unseen plan, whatever that may be, you have to accept that you don't understand that plan and you do not understand why you do or believe the way that you believe. So no one is responsible for his/her actions and everyones action no matter how bad could be justified by the fact that they were just along for the ride. I don't know about you but that's a scary thought.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I said I believe 2 and 3 are false, it doesn't mean I wasn't able to do anything. I made an action to believe one way or another.

No you didn't. You said you did not believe your answers. Being undecided is not believing.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

If you believe the same way that I believe then we should be in complete agreement that choice is a belief. Your example just supports my side of this argument more than anything. You stated you believed in god at one time and then at another time you stopped believing in him because it no longer made sense to you. The only thing to essentially understand is that regardless if outside information influenced your direction of belief, you still decided to act on something and all actions are choice driven.

The moment you've switched from one belief to another was based off an action. The moment you've initially established your belief in God previously was based off an action to do so. You had a belief that was true to you at a point in time in your life and another time in your life other information appeared in your field of vision influencing you to alter that belief to the point where now you believe your previous belief is false. As I stated before we act only on what we are aware of and for things we are oblivious to we do nothing. It really doesn't matter if the idea stopped making sense or not the fact of the matter is that, you've made an action based off something that you were aware of that did not make sense to you. Anytime you initiate an action you are deciding to "ACT" That's all there is to it. Your entire premise can be summed up as such.

Did you believe that God existence was true or false in the past?

Do you believe that God existence is true or false now?

I switched beliefs, but it was not a choice. I did not decide for the concept to stop making sense.

If belief is as simple as choice, then believe 2 and 3. If you can't do it, then belief requires at least more than a choice. I don't see where choice plays a role at all, but you should admit that choice alone is not enough.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

No you didn't. You said you did not believe your answers. Being undecided is not believing.

Is that not the same as stating that I do not believe my answers?

Me - "I said I believe 2 and 3 are false,"

You - "You said you did not believe your answers."

All you did here was reinforced what I just stated.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I switched beliefs, but it was not a choice. I did not decide for the concept to stop making sense.

I didn't ask you rather or not something stop making sense. You never answer my question. I'll assume you missed it so here it goes again.


Did you believe that God existence was true or false in the past?

Do you believe that God existence is true or false now?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If belief is as simple as choice, then believe 2 and 3. If you can't do it, then belief requires at least more than a choice. I don't see where choice plays a role at all, but you should admit that choice alone is not enough.

Of course there is a requirement of more than just a choice, you need information. I can't just say out of the blue "you know what? I think I'm going to start believing that yellow and orange stripped elephants are at the center of the earth." What sense would that be for me to believe that if I'm completely oblivious to yellow and orange stripped elephants at the center of the earth? Now on the other hand, lets say you came up to me and said "Hey Ne-yo, did you know its a scientific fact that there are yellow and orange stripped elephants at the center of the earth and we are connected to them biologically because of evolution?"

Now whats going to happen here is based off my rational thinking I'm going to process this information and begin to categorize it as such...

I believe this claim is false

I'm undecided rather this claim is true or false

I believe this claim is true.

I may not just jump to the conclusion that the claim is true or false. I may actually be undecided about such a claim pending further information. Considering this is the first I've heard of such a thing. No one just believes random out of the blue stuff that doesn't in some way relate to them. I believe my answers to numbers 2 and 3 are false because I made them up. Either way I still asserted a belief and you cannot say that I haven't. The basis of this entire argument is based upon belief being a choice or not. I believe my answers to number 2 and 3 are false I made a choice to believe this way because of how uncertain I am for their accuracy.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

You've accepted the fact that you're following a predetermined plan that has been mapped out for your life. It doesn't in no way interest you the maker of such a plan? But yet you know for some strange reason that it's all made up by humans? How can you possibly know such a thing without investigating the validity of such a concept? Does that even make sense to you?

How can I possibly know it was made up by humans? I don't, but it appears to be so. Call it my religion, but I just can't believe that concepts would exist without humans. To me it seems like we are here by chance and now we're trying to define everything as best we can. As I said in another post, I haven't really heard of a scientific use of the word design or purpose and I don't see how it can be wedged in. So when you might see purpose in the universe, I just see things happening... Is the cell designed with a mitochondria so it can breathe, or does it happen to exist because it helped the cell to survive and outmatch other organisms? Sorry, when I "philosophize" about things, I tend not to be subjective about it. So no, it doesn't interest me who the maker is, since I don't believe in makers and thus I wouldn't be to motivated to search for them.

To accept that your life is determined and fated, then you must also accept that you have no idea of what's going on. There is no purpose for you here as you would see it. I cannot see it being understood as anything else but purpose and meaning. When you make a statement implying that your life is just a set of predetermined events leading to some predetermined destiny, then you're just merely implying that your residency here on Earth has been decided long before you've arrived to this Planet and your conscious is just along for some ride that you know nothing of. That just doesn't fit right with me.

Well we just have different preferences. It fits with me perfectly. The mystery is what makes life interesting. The fact I might be a wheel in some machine, thinking I'm turning on my own accord, doesn't phase me.

We are not just talking about the ability to switch beliefs at any given moment. We have been talking about rather or not we have the ability to make choices period. This argument deals with free will and humans ability to make choices. You imply peoples lives are predetermined and all choices are fixed as is. If we look at the world through your eyes then no one is responsible for his/her actions and thats a scary thought if everyone felt the same way as you.

Well I don't see anyone as responsible for their actions. As I said, I have to live on this level where free will exists and is something you can't escape. But from the objective point of view, then yes, I don't see the difference between a lightning strike killing somebody or somebody being killed by a person.

Why exactly would it be scary if other people felt like me? You see, what you're doing is extracting one part of my world view and pasting it on some generic everyday normal point of view. Now suddenly the normal person loses all his morals because he believes it's all predetermined, that all responsibility is gone and starts killing people. Yes that would be scary, but that's not how I see the world.

It makes me appreciate that people make choices to believe one way or another that much more.

Well, what that makes me appreciate is that people can't really make choices to believe one way or another, because that way people could actually choose the "killer with an existential dilemma" world view we see as scary.

Based off how you see the difference in our thinking, it looks as if you do not process information. If I tell you that Your car is being stolen right now, what will you do?

I would believe you and run off to take a look.

Does this statement not contradict your position? How can you be aware of your responsibilities if you believe your life is fated?

If you're asking me if I've solved the mind-body problem, then no. Because I know my life is determined, I know or can deduce why I might do or think something or in what way that can be influenced. The simple fact that my brains is built the way it is, makes me into a person with those kinds of values and perceived responsibilities.

Ne-yo, I don't even see what we are disagreeing on at this point other than your comment that you chose to believe your answers to 2 and 3 are probably false. You had no choice but to think they are wild guesses that are probably false. It's where reality took your perception. Overall, we seem to be on the same page now. So, do you get why atheists can't choose to be Christians? Do you see that atheists never chose atheism? It's all about how things seem.

To answer your questions, I used to be a Christian and now I am an atheist. Going back would take more than choice. Right?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Ne-yo, I don't even see what we are disagreeing on at this point other than your comment that you chose to believe your answers to 2 and 3 are probably false. You had no choice but to think they are wild guesses that are probably false. It's where reality took your perception. Overall, we seem to be on the same page now. So, do you get why atheists can't choose to be Christians? Do you see that atheists never chose atheism? It's all about how things seem.

No we are not nowhere near in accordance on this issue. The fact is this essentially. You made a choice to become the Atheist that you are. You wasn't born into this world that way. I have to have something to go on in order to have a belief or disbelief that seems to be the point that you're missing. We just don't believe or disbelieve with nothing to support the reason why. There will always be something that influence a decision, decisions just don't happen spontaneously out of thin air for no apparent reason. You can call it a fixed predetermined rule, it doesn't matter you make the choice the choice doesn't make you. And if you like, just because how good that bold statement sound, you are more than welcome to throw that piece of information into your signature.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

To answer your questions, I used to be a Christian and now I am an atheist. Going back would take more than choice. Right?

So you went from one belief to another. You were a Christian who believed at one point and now you're an atheist who no longer believes because there is not sufficient evidence or reason to do so anymore. I call that choice because you made a decision followed by an action to go from one to the other. I can understand if you were born the type of Atheist you are, then I would support your claim, but since you were not then it becomes pretty obvious that you made a choice to stop believing.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I have to have something to go on in order to have a belief or disbelief.... We just don't believe or disbelieve with nothing to support the reason why. There will always be something that influence a decision, decisions just don't happen spontaneously out of thin air for no apparent reason.

Exactly. That's right. I totally agree.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

you make the choice the choice doesn't make you. And if you like, just because how good that bold statement sound, you are more than welcome to throw that piece of information into your signature.

Please don't ever act like that again. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

So you went from one belief to another. You were a Christian who believed at one point and now you're an atheist who no longer believes because there is not sufficient evidence or reason to do so anymore. I call that choice because you made a decision followed by an action to go from one to the other. I can understand if you were born the type of Atheist you are, then I would support your claim, but since you were not then it becomes pretty obvious that you made a choice to stop believing.

No, I did not make a decision to go from one to the other. I was trying to hold on to Christianity and could not do it. I remember the moment it happened. I could not believe, and I cannot do it now. Belief is not a choice. That is why you can't choose to believe your answers to 2 and 3. There's just not enough to go on.