Thread: "Choosing to Believe" 2 + 2 = 5: The Interviews

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Yes there is fate, why not? I still haven't been given a reason to believe I'm anything else but something that arises from what seems as a determined universe. We are so different, because we are. Our neurons are wired differently because of our genes and every other minuscule variable in our environment as we live out our lives. That's why the religions that equate every person on Earth don't work, people aren't equal and that's why heaven-hell idea is wrong or at the end at least proves that God is someone who doesn't give a shit.

To believe in fate as you do just postulates the idea that much more so regarding the fact that there is something higher than us that has mapped out our lives to the "T". You have to eventually come to grips with the fact that someone or something has an ultimate plan for you. You do not know that plan and with regards to fate you will never understand that plan but it is what it is.

Its amazing how you can believe in Evolution where evolution signifies that Man knows exactly what's going on but then on the other hand you say that we don't have a clue to what is going on. How can we not be in control based off evolution? Science has so-called chronicled our progression from 3 million years ago and you say we do not know whats going on? We've developed theories with a high level of certainty and you say we do not know whats going on? The point I'm making is simple. In our modern world, with all that we know, it is difficult to believe that we know nothing.

“Knowing something is knowing that you know nothing at all.” Are you ready to accept that all the knowledge in the world may be relatively useless?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

The only thing the indecisive person supports, is that a person who doesn't have his information or his thinking determined can't hold a specific belief. As I said before, we're talking about different concepts. Everybody here knows that anybody else can believe anything else under certain circumstances... give me a lobotomy, pump me up with drugs, brainwash me or indoctrinate me as a child and maybe I'll join some cult... that's not the question here. Actually your example of "we have to start as we did when we first entered the world" is more supportive of my claim than yours, since it's obvious that the majority inherits the beliefs and practices of their parents. Which proves how "choice of belief" isn't really a choice but something determined - in this case by our upbringing.

I don't see how that supports your claim at all? We are born into this world not having any particular belief one way or the other. You made a choice someone in your life to believe that God does not exist. I made a choice somewhere in my life to believe that God does exist in either case we both made choices to believe something. So yes belief is a choice. You didn't come into this world believing that God does not exist, you came into this world undecided pending information to be supplied, once you've received the necessary information and became aware you made a decision to believe that God is false, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

The question is whether a person who has a strong, supported belief can instantly choose another one without having proper reasons. And the answer is clearly no, normal people can't chose to believe they are a millionaire or that they can fly or that 2+2=5. I can't do it and that's what this thread is here for. To interview those who claim they can choose beliefs.

This is the point you seem to be missing. People make choices to believe things or to believe in things. I believe myself as a millionaire is a false claim. Thats a belief I've asserted. Just because I will not switch that belief to some ridiculous claim doesn't mean I'm unable to make a choice regarding a belief. It's obvious that I've already established a belief based off a choice I made to believe, which supports that belief is a choice. How are you missing this???

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Why should I do something about it? I'm not trying to be some sick ideal of an atheist who puts believers into camps and kills them. The situation here is beyond control, so either religion will die by itself in X number of years, or it will not. I'm not somebody who wants to go to some old lady and preach how her whole life is a delusion, I'm just informing you on how I see the grand picture and the effect religions have in the world. Some kill albinos to make love potions, others burn witches, some creationists want to pull science back into the Middle Ages... excuse me for expecting something more worthy of a 21. century. But yeah, that's life.

Bonsay I think you're a pretty decent guy and you're sincere, so I'm going to say this. We are not regulated to a life of simplicity our actions actually matter, quite the contrary, we just don’t understand how. Yes I know that may sound depressing, but realize that life is in your hands, you can define your purpose. Whether or not that purpose truly matters is debatable, as well as whether or not any purpose can be better than another but you can define the reason you like “being,” is this correct? Other than that, you have no way of knowing specifically how you will influence the universe, you can only assume that if you live life passionately, pursuing a life dedicated to wisdom and not knowledge, that your effect will be positive. In this life, that may be as good as it gets.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

To believe in fate as you do just postulates the idea that much more so regarding the fact that there is something higher than us that has mapped out our lives to the "T". You have to eventually come to grips with the fact that someone or something has an ultimate plan for you. You do not know that plan and with regards to fate you will never understand that plan but it is what it is.

Concepts like "something higher" don't mean much to me. Beside that, I've accepted the fact I'm just something following a plan a long time ago. Even though the word plan, like something higher, is just another vague concept implying intelligence, made up by the limited human psyche.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Its amazing how you can believe in Evolution where evolution signifies that Man knows exactly what's going on but then on the other hand you say that we don't have a clue to what is going on. How can we not be in control based off evolution? Science has so-called chronicled our progression from 3 million years ago and you say we do not know whats going on? We've developed theories with a high level of certainty and you say we do not know whats going on? The point I'm making is simple. In our modern world, with all that we know, it is difficult to believe that we know nothing.

“Knowing something is knowing that you know nothing at all.” Are you ready to accept that all the knowledge in the world may be relatively useless?

I don't really know where I stated we don't know all that stuff. About being ready to accept that all knowledge is relatively useless; I understand that statement as if you're talking about purpose or meaning, then yes, I've always believed those things as abstract, relative concepts made up by the human brain. I never though about the universe as something with a point to it, at least not in the everyday use of the word. If you mean knowledge as literally relatively useless, than I say it depends on ones perception of reality. If somebody thinks that life is purposeless than all knowledge is useless. If one has a purpose then knowledge isn't useless.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I don't see how that supports your claim at all? We are born into this world not having any particular belief one way or the other. You made a choice someone in your life to believe that God does not exist. I made a choice somewhere in my life to believe that God does exist in either case we both made choices to believe something. So yes belief is a choice. You didn't come into this world believing that God does not exist, you came into this world undecided pending information to be supplied, once you've received the necessary information and became aware you made a decision to believe that God is false, plain and simple.

This is the point you seem to be missing. People make choices to believe things or to believe in things. I believe myself as a millionaire is a false claim. Thats a belief I've asserted. Just because I will not switch that belief to some ridiculous claim doesn't mean I'm unable to make a choice regarding a belief. It's obvious that I've already established a belief based off a choice I made to believe, which supports that belief is a choice. How are you missing this???

We've been here before. Yes I know that's what we call making choices and as I said, nobody is disputing that fact or the fact that we make choices on thing all the time. Perhaps we'll find out it's just semantics in the end, maybe you'll see my view if I put it in this concentrated way:

What do you call an event when somebody is able to change a belief even though it's contrary to everything he is able to believe at that moment. So what would you say if some generic professor of mathematics suddenly believes that 2+2=5? Lets say we somehow know his knowledge of mathematics was unchanged in this transition. I'd call this a choice of belief, implying a real, free choice. Why? Because it's not determined by what the man knows about the subject. If he was unable to do so, I'd see that as proof that beliefs are determined.

To parallel this with another example: You have me, I don't believe I can fly. Everything I know about reality makes me believe that. So I have a formed belief (or what you would apparently call a choice) with all the appropriate rationalizations backing it up. What I would call a choice of belief is me suddenly believing I can fly, even though my image of reality was unchanged. The only way I see this as possible is via some complex mental problem. Therefore I say that for every normal person this type of choice of belief is impossible. What do you think about this?

Basically this is the way I see the difference in our thinking.
You: Information ---choice--->belief
Me: Information ------------>belief

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Bonsay I think you're a pretty decent guy and you're sincere, so I'm going to say this. We are not regulated to a life of simplicity our actions actually matter, quite the contrary, we just don’t understand how. Yes I know that may sound depressing, but realize that life is in your hands, you can define your purpose. Whether or not that purpose truly matters is debatable, as well as whether or not any purpose can be better than another but you can define the reason you like “being,” is this correct? Other than that, you have no way of knowing specifically how you will influence the universe, you can only assume that if you live life passionately, pursuing a life dedicated to wisdom and not knowledge, that your effect will be positive. In this life, that may be as good as it gets.

I understand this too. As I've said in some other debates, I've somehow split my worldview, because a specifically subjective one is inadequate if I really want to search for truth. Even though I talk about determinism and me being a chemical reaction, I'm also perfectly aware of my existential responsibilities. I don't know whether I want to give myself a purpose to live, beside just living itself. I'll leave that to life, I guess. Maybe not the important part of that quote, but I see wisdom as connected to knowledge, especially when looking at how we experience the world.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Concepts like "something higher" don't mean much to me. Beside that, I've accepted the fact I'm just something following a plan a long time ago. Even though the word plan, like something higher, is just another vague concept implying intelligence, made up by the limited human psyche.

You've accepted the fact that you're following a predetermined plan that has been mapped out for your life. It doesn't in no way interest you the maker of such a plan? But yet you know for some strange reason that it's all made up by humans? How can you possibly know such a thing without investigating the validity of such a concept? Does that even make sense to you?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I don't really know where I stated we don't know all that stuff. About being ready to accept that all knowledge is relatively useless; I understand that statement as if you're talking about purpose or meaning, then yes, I've always believed those things as abstract, relative concepts made up by the human brain. I never though about the universe as something with a point to it, at least not in the everyday use of the word. If you mean knowledge as literally relatively useless, than I say it depends on ones perception of reality. If somebody thinks that life is purposeless than all knowledge is useless. If one has a purpose then knowledge isn't useless.

To accept that your life is determined and fated, then you must also accept that you have no idea of what's going on. There is no purpose for you here as you would see it. I cannot see it being understood as anything else but purpose and meaning. When you make a statement implying that your life is just a set of predetermined events leading to some predetermined destiny, then you're just merely implying that your residency here on Earth has been decided long before you've arrived to this Planet and your conscious is just along for some ride that you know nothing of. That just doesn't fit right with me.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

We've been here before. Yes I know that's what we call making choices and as I said, nobody is disputing that fact or the fact that we make choices on thing all the time. Perhaps we'll find out it's just semantics in the end, maybe you'll see my view if I put it in this concentrated way:

What do you call an event when somebody is able to change a belief even though it's contrary to everything he is able to believe at that moment. So what would you say if some generic professor of mathematics suddenly believes that 2+2=5? Lets say we somehow know his knowledge of mathematics was unchanged in this transition. I'd call this a choice of belief, implying a real, free choice. Why? Because it's not determined by what the man knows about the subject. If he was unable to do so, I'd see that as proof that beliefs are determined.

We are not just talking about the ability to switch beliefs at any given moment. We have been talking about rather or not we have the ability to make choices period. This argument deals with free will and humans ability to make choices. You imply peoples lives are predetermined and all choices are fixed as is. If we look at the world through your eyes then no one is responsible for his/her actions and thats a scary thought if everyone felt the same way as you. It makes me appreciate that people make choices to believe one way or another that much more.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

To parallel this with another example: You have me, I don't believe I can fly. Everything I know about reality makes me believe that. So I have a formed belief (or what you would apparently call a choice) with all the appropriate rationalizations backing it up. What I would call a choice of belief is me suddenly believing I can fly, even though my image of reality was unchanged. The only way I see this as possible is via some complex mental problem. Therefore I say that for every normal person this type of choice of belief is impossible. What do you think about this?

Basically this is the way I see the difference in our thinking.
You: Information ---choice--->belief
Me: Information ------------>belief

Based off how you see the difference in our thinking, it looks as if you do not process information. If I tell you that Your car is being stolen right now, what will you do?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I understand this too. As I've said in some other debates, I've somehow split my worldview, because a specifically subjective one is inadequate if I really want to search for truth. Even though I talk about determinism and me being a chemical reaction, I'm also perfectly aware of my existential responsibilities. I don't know whether I want to give myself a purpose to live, beside just living itself. I'll leave that to life, I guess. Maybe not the important part of that quote, but I see wisdom as connected to knowledge, especially when looking at how we experience the world.

Does this statement not contradict your position? How can you be aware of your responsibilities if you believe your life is fated? You believe your life is predestined for a particular outcome and hence, you must come to terms with the fact that you have no idea what is going on, but someone or something does. If you believe that the universe is guided by some unseen ultimate unseen plan, whatever that may be, you have to accept that you don't understand that plan and you do not understand why you do or believe the way that you believe. So no one is responsible for his/her actions and everyones action no matter how bad could be justified by the fact that they were just along for the ride. I don't know about you but that's a scary thought.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

You've accepted the fact that you're following a predetermined plan that has been mapped out for your life. It doesn't in no way interest you the maker of such a plan? But yet you know for some strange reason that it's all made up by humans? How can you possibly know such a thing without investigating the validity of such a concept? Does that even make sense to you?

How can I possibly know it was made up by humans? I don't, but it appears to be so. Call it my religion, but I just can't believe that concepts would exist without humans. To me it seems like we are here by chance and now we're trying to define everything as best we can. As I said in another post, I haven't really heard of a scientific use of the word design or purpose and I don't see how it can be wedged in. So when you might see purpose in the universe, I just see things happening... Is the cell designed with a mitochondria so it can breathe, or does it happen to exist because it helped the cell to survive and outmatch other organisms? Sorry, when I "philosophize" about things, I tend not to be subjective about it. So no, it doesn't interest me who the maker is, since I don't believe in makers and thus I wouldn't be to motivated to search for them.

To accept that your life is determined and fated, then you must also accept that you have no idea of what's going on. There is no purpose for you here as you would see it. I cannot see it being understood as anything else but purpose and meaning. When you make a statement implying that your life is just a set of predetermined events leading to some predetermined destiny, then you're just merely implying that your residency here on Earth has been decided long before you've arrived to this Planet and your conscious is just along for some ride that you know nothing of. That just doesn't fit right with me.

Well we just have different preferences. It fits with me perfectly. The mystery is what makes life interesting. The fact I might be a wheel in some machine, thinking I'm turning on my own accord, doesn't phase me.

We are not just talking about the ability to switch beliefs at any given moment. We have been talking about rather or not we have the ability to make choices period. This argument deals with free will and humans ability to make choices. You imply peoples lives are predetermined and all choices are fixed as is. If we look at the world through your eyes then no one is responsible for his/her actions and thats a scary thought if everyone felt the same way as you.

Well I don't see anyone as responsible for their actions. As I said, I have to live on this level where free will exists and is something you can't escape. But from the objective point of view, then yes, I don't see the difference between a lightning strike killing somebody or somebody being killed by a person.

Why exactly would it be scary if other people felt like me? You see, what you're doing is extracting one part of my world view and pasting it on some generic everyday normal point of view. Now suddenly the normal person loses all his morals because he believes it's all predetermined, that all responsibility is gone and starts killing people. Yes that would be scary, but that's not how I see the world.

It makes me appreciate that people make choices to believe one way or another that much more.

Well, what that makes me appreciate is that people can't really make choices to believe one way or another, because that way people could actually choose the "killer with an existential dilemma" world view we see as scary.

Based off how you see the difference in our thinking, it looks as if you do not process information. If I tell you that Your car is being stolen right now, what will you do?

I would believe you and run off to take a look.

Does this statement not contradict your position? How can you be aware of your responsibilities if you believe your life is fated?

If you're asking me if I've solved the mind-body problem, then no. Because I know my life is determined, I know or can deduce why I might do or think something or in what way that can be influenced. The simple fact that my brains is built the way it is, makes me into a person with those kinds of values and perceived responsibilities.