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What the hell is this thread about? :shock:
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Originally Posted by Universal Mind
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Xei, Universal Mind, Very old poor quality footage you are posting. Not posting, linking. Face the future for we can see you're not completely up to date instead living in the olden days with Rick Roll. But even the olden days we remember today. I know what you're trying to do and I don't like it.
:!::alien::fro::muffin:Quote:
Originally Posted by really
Don't try to compare Bad Company to Menudo, and don't ever try to compare ANYBODY to The Fabulous Freebirds. There will never be another Michael Hayes and Terry Gordy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
I'm not quite sure what this thread is about, but from reading the first page it seems to be about people choosing to believe.
Aparrently, some do not belive that people can choose what to belive. That is silly. Many of the threads posted on these forums (ones about actual DREAMS) involve people choosing what to believe. For example, when I am LDing and I need money, I choose to believe that it is somewere accessable, like in my back pocket or in a trash can or behind something. I realize that this is different than choosing to believe that 2+2=5, but the fact that one is choosing to believe is undeniable. Sorry to bring this thread back on topic, as I see it.
This can't really be applied to reality though. The reason is that in dreams you already have the belief that you can summon/will things into existence. You arn't creating or changing a belief system as much as using one you already have.Quote:
Originally Posted by ubigcow
Also remember that the crux of this is changing, or in this case completely replacing, a solidly held belief system. Could you choose to believe that the moon was made out of cardboard for instance? And before someone says that's stupid, it may be worth reviewing some of the many claims religions put forward, afterall thats what we can apparently start wholeheartedly believing in so easily.
Oh, and i have to ask... why do you need money in an LD anyway?
good lord, I don't know why anyone would want to bring these thread back to life...
2+2=5?
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I think mitosis could explain all of this...
:banana:
:bump:
:chuckle:
The more stupid it is, the easier it is to prove that you can't choose a belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by RooJ
Why is the moon statement above so stupid? Because it's irrational and thus unbelievable. Who wants to try to believe something unbelievable like 2+2=5?
Why on Shiva's green Earth would you Jesus this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
2.5 + 2.5 = 5!!!!
See I got the two in their.
Their what?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
The 2's...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandform
2 + 2 = 5
Because you forgot the invisible .5's...
Ok...Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
It was all for Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandform
Didn't bother reading through this thread, but if it's talking about doublethink: I remember when I was a Christian facing the overwhelming evidence against Genesis(and other books in the bible) and I described to my Grandmother how I was able to reconcile the Bible while still holding onto science and logic trees. I described it using an analogy to doublethink in 1984.
Edit: Oh shit, I was completely off topic.
How amazingly convenient that I've never seen this thread before and it's been in existence all of this time.
I'm crushing this thread it ends here and now!
Lets start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
2+2 cannot equal 5 for me. You cannot ask me to believe in something that I've already established as a false. 2+2=4 to me. I've already made my choice about this a long time ago. So in lieu of this I'm making a choice to not believe that 2+2=5.
Now lets say you're thinking "of course he cannot believe it because it's already predetermined as a false" Regardless if it has been predetermined as a false the choice is still entirely up to me whether or not I'm willing to believe that 2+2=5. That's the key word here "The choice is up to me" Give this same equation to someone that is mathematically inept and that person may very well believe that 2+2=5. Even if you and I know it's an absurd equation, and we both know it's a predetermined false. For someone else in this world 2+2=5 is either true, false or they are undecided (pending further evidence). The choice is up to that individual. Predetermined factors do not make choices for us. We make choices for ourselves whether or not we are willing to believe such an absurd equation and I made a choice to not believe that 2+2=5.
Besides how ridiculous for you to ask someone to believe something they've already made a choice on? You should ask someone to try believing in something that they are completely oblivious to and then see what answers you get.
The floor is open for your rebuttal. Good luck :goodjob2:
I redefine the current value of 4 to be what the current value of 5 is and vice-versa.
2+2=5
2+3=4
That doesn't work, because then 2 = 5 - 2 = 3 and 2 = 4 -3 = 1; 1 =! 2 =! 3...
It's an interesting question actually. Really 2 + 2 = 4 isn't a 'basic' equation; you should really prove it from the axioms and some simpler statement. 4 is in fact shorthand for 1 + 1 + 1 + 1, and 2 shorthand for 1 + 1. Therfore we have
2 + 2 = (1 + 1) + (1 + 1) = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (associativity of natural numbers under addition) = (1 + 1 + 1 + 1) = 4.
So really 2 + 2 = 4 is a result of the existence of the natural number 1 and the validity of associativity of addition. If you want to disprove 2 + 2 = 4 you'll have to disprove one of the above.
Actually associativity can be proven in even more fundamental terms using sets but let's not go there.
You guys are putting way to much into this. It's not about the equation, it's about the belief.
Do you believe (a + b) + c = a + (b + c)?
DO you?
Yes that was the question.
Well if you do so do I, now.
what's your point?
Hmmm, the only reason these numbers add up to the other number is because numbers are just things given a meaning.
It is only the meaning of these numbers which we add up.
I'm not making much sense here, but anyways...
If you take 2 physical things (the amount of objects, and that amount being the amount which is the meaning of this number "2") and add another 2 physical things. What you are left with is 4 physical things (the amount of objects, the amount being the meaning of this number "4")
So it is not a case of maths really, it is more a case of whether you agree whether the amount of 2 things should be classified as the number "2".
...Gosh, it's so hard to say what's in my mind.
That makes perfect sense and that is exactly the point I'm making here also. you put it very well. Good job :goodjob2:Quote:
Originally Posted by slash112
But then of course you would come to the conclusion that it is 4, because you are essentially defining the symbol '4' to mean 2 + 2. So the question becomes,
"Is it true that the number of objects you get when you add two objects to two objects is the number of objects you get when you add two objects to two objects?".
To do it properly, as I've said, you need to prove (a + b) + c = a + (b + c).
No I think you mean to do it properly (prove it) you would need to disprove what you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
And even with that, you would still need my part to emphasise the fact that they are just numbers (symbols) given a meaning.
I mean to prove 2 + 2 = 4 you'd have to prove the associative law.
Your method is essentially assigning 'two objects' to 2 and 'two objects and two objects' to 4 which isn't how maths works really; you start with the minimum amount of definitions possible and then work up from there. Plus you've introduced a kind of ambiguity; why haven't you defined 4 as 'three objects and one object'? That seems more logical.
I was using one example, and that example was the obvious one. 2+2 duh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
But meh, I can't be bothered with this shit, mixing philosophy and maths ain't my thang.
...ok, neither of those things are my thang anyway... pfft... stuff it.
Like I mentioned earlier the questioning is wrong.
any takers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
It's hard without a concrete example but in general I wouldn't 'believe' either way. I believe things based on observation and reason.
Yeah, so do I.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
This'll probably open up a massive can of worms, but could you provide a succinct set of reasons/observations which lead you to believe in the Christian God?
Your argument is that it is impossible for a person to change beliefs? That's false. My views on specific issues have changed lots of times, and I bet yours have too. But let's say you're right about that. By your argument, it is too late for me to become a Christian, and it is too late for anybody with any other religion to ever become a Christian. The only time a person can become a Christian is when he has just been introduced to Christianity after never having had a different religious views.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
That's a pretty crazy stretch.
Oh, so now it is possible? Well then... take me up on the challenge. Decide to sincerely believe that 2 + 2 = 5 and let me interview you while you believe it. Come on. Make the choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
Ridiculous? You said belief is a choice. So what's the problem with challenging people to choose a certain belief? You made a choice, and you can (according to you) make a choice again. Make the choice. Let's see this in action. Back up what you are claiming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
Tell me about the moment you decided to believe that 2 + 2 = 4. How old were you? What was the weather like? Why didn't you decide to believe that 2 + 2 = 1? I want to know about that big moment of decision when you had so many paths you could go down. If you had chosen 1, you would still believe it, right? I mean, since once a belief is chosen it is set in stone for life even though you can choose your beliefs. That doesn't make any sense, does it? You might want to try giving a different argument.
No I didn't say it was impossible to change a belief, what I'm conveying is essentially this. If someone is strongly convicted to a 'particular belief' (not all) that they are positive of beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's either true or false then the possibility of having someone chose otherwise is just more than likely not going to happen. Can you honestly believe that 2+2= 5? I can't do it, because I have made a choice that I'm positive that 2+2=5 is ridiculous and I choose to disbelieve this claim. It's in the same sense of your Atheistic position. Do you have a strong belief that God doesn't exist beyond the shadow of a doubt? Or, are you really undecided and you're pending further evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
I'm taking you up on the challenge. You're asking me to believe that 2+2 = 5. I'm telling you that I've established a positive belief that 2+2=5 is false. So I'm in disbelief of such a ridiculous equation. That's another thing also you seem to be missing. If a claim is presented to someone and that claim is ridiculous to that person then disbelief is applied to that claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
There is no problem that I see with you challenging people to choose a certain belief, you're just asking the wrong question. You're asking a pre-establish false for anyone that is mathematically capable. As I mentioned before this question should be directed toward someone who is inept in addition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
You're still going about this the wrong way and asking the wrong question. As a child I as well as you could change beliefs about things in heartbeat. I believed in Santa Clause as a young child, do I believe in him now? Not since that day I saw the old man putting those presents under the tree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
I never said all beliefs were set in stone. What I stated, is that, people cannot change their position on something that they are positively convicted to and I just happen to be positively convicted to the belief that 2+2 = 4 and so are you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
I put this quote at the end because it fits better here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
By my argument if you are completely in positive belief that God does not exist then yes, it's too late for you to become a Christian because nothing I say or anyone else is going to make you choose otherwise. However, if you are 'undecided' about God's existence then your choice to believe or disbelieve is pending. Which one are you?
This thread is on fire! lol, 26 pages.
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Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I mean really?
Listen to what you're saying once in a while.
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That's all you have? You actually don't have anything intelligent to add? Just come in and say "really?" what's the point in even posting then, if you're not going to argue the logic? Better yet. Explain to me what are you basing your belief on, that 2+2= 5?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
Also Universal Mind is a grown man he doesn't need to get bailed out by his buddies. So no, the thread continues.
I don't have the attention span to read all this (sorry), so I'm just going to post this:
"We turn up the volume on the voices in our heads and try to make sense of the babble. On a journey around the country to understand how emotion and logic interact to guide us through our options, we ponder how we get through the million choices and decisions we make every day. Forget free will, some important decisions could come down to a steaming cup of coffee." http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2008/11/14
Click "Listen to the whole show".
But mark is right. If you say "I can't chose..." then belief isn't a choice. That's what the whole thing is about, if it's possible to chose beliefs freely... it obviously isn't.
What's being asked of me here is for me to switch a positive belief, he's not asking me to choose to believe something fresh. He's asking me to switch my current belief to something I think is absurd. Let's say I know nothing of mathematical equations and he requested that I choose to believe 2+2=5 I can do one of two things.
Assert the positive belief that is is true.
Assert the positive belief that is is false.
And either case I'm making a choice to believe one or the other.
It's not that I cannot make a choice, the fact is simply, I've made a choice by asserting the positive belief that the claim is ridiculous so I'm in disbelief. unless my disbelief can be proven false. I will continue to stay convicted to it.
Ne-yo, you seem to agree with us that belief is not a choice, except you think it is a choice when it comes to matters in which a person has never had a belief. So you at least believe that nobody with a non-Christian religion could ever make the choice to believe the concept of Christianity? The only people who could are people who have never had religious views? Who are those people? Babies and toddlers?
Let's talk about the babies and toddlers situation. I'll introduce you to an issue you might have never dealt with before. Do you know specifically how Napoleon became the ruler of France? If not, then choose right now to believe he was elected. Can you do that?
I do not agree with you. Things are not always what they appear to be. I never said I "think" it's a choice when it comes to matters which a person has never had a belief in something. I said I KNOW it's a choice is able to be established once that person is exposed to something they've never been exposed to before. The babies and toddlers are an excellent point. They don't have an opinion either way until they are exposed to religion and at that moment they have 3 categories to select their belief from. Positive, false, unsure. The last one is "lack of belief" in it's most true form. You said belief is not a choice. Isn't it pretty amazing that I believe that God exist and you're in disbelief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
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Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Try another one, I know enough history of Bonaparte to understand that he was not elected to become the ruler of France.
But the whole point of being able to chose your beliefs is to be able to chose ridiculous, unbelievable beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
When you have information on a certain subject, you form a belief based on that information.
To go from this formed belief to another belief would mean choosing a belief. And that's all there is to it. I know that 2+2=4. It is what I believe. If this is belief #1 and if belief #2 is 2+2=5... then we can say that I cannot chose a belief, because I cannot chose #2.
Ridiculous claims are put into certain categories everyday by people. If a claim seems ridiculous for a person then what happens here is that, they apply a positive belief that that claim is false. If they apply a false to that claim then yes they have actually made a choice. The choice would be the belief that the claim is false. Or, they actually may be undecided and pending further information to support on rather or not they would categorize that claim as true (belief) false (disbelief).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
I completely agree with this. I have information that tells me that 2+2=5 is ridiculous, so I formed a belief in lieu of this information. I asserted the positive belief that this claim is false.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
That's switching a belief, yes people can switch beliefs all the time. However, regarding something that seems absurd to someone doesn't mean they don't act on it, that is not what I am conveying here because we act on everything that we are aware of and whatever we are not aware of we do not act on it. Just because I did not choose to believe 2+2= 5 doesn't mean I did nothing. When I decided not to choose a ridiculous claim, I made an action on it at that instance. That action in itself is choice driven. I made a choice to positively believe that 2 +2 = 5 is false. I don't know why you guys think that we can't make a choice to believe something is a false. You did it, UM has done it and every other Atheist on this site has done so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
Then choose to believe an answer to each of these three questions without doing any research. Just come up with an answer for each one and believe it.
1. What is the second largest city in Mississippi?
2. What was the name of my first dog?
3. In what year was my maternal grandfather born?
I can come up with an answer for each one but the fact is this. I am not going to be positively certain on my answer so no matter what answer I choose I'm going to be undecided until evidence is presented so that I can make a positive choice, but I'll answer anyway just to see where you go with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
1. What is the second largest city in Mississippi? Biloxi
2. What was the name of my first dog? Max
3. In what year was my maternal grandfather born? 1934
You said you can choose to believe things if you never before had a belief on the topics they concern. Didn't you? Well... Choose to believe those answers. Can you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
In all honesty out of the 3 there is 1 that I definitely believe right now and two are undecided and pending further evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
1. What is the second largest city in Mississippi? Biloxi
This one I positively believe is true.
2. What was the name of my first dog? Max
This one I'm undecided on.
3. In what year was my maternal grandfather born? 1934
This one I'm undecided on.
However, the other 2 I'm undecided on shouldn't really matter you have 1 out of 3 so we can move on.
Yet solution is easy. The woman will give birth to four children, but during her pregnancy she eats the other people and uses their skulls to gather water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro
In the end there is still five of them.
Ingenious yet quite macabre.
Well quit slacking of and decide. Make a choice to believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I'm sure it's okay for UM if I'm undecided on 2 of 3. He only needs one anyway to try and prove his point. I asserted the positive belief in number 1 and I'll wait and see where he goes with this.
So you're saying that choice doesn't exist on the level of deciding whether something is true or false, but when you're deciding whether you'll say something is false or unknowable, so whether you'll make an absolute declaration of belief on something or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
If that is true than all I can say is that this answer is, in my opinion, just an evasion of the question. At least in relation to the circumstances in which this debate started:
This "is belief a choice" was aimed at the debates where somebody says "You'll go to hell because you're choosing not to believe...". So even if you decide for the matter of God to be "unknown", you're not believing. Which is, for God, exactly the same as believing that God doesn't exist (which is where, if I understand you're argument, the choice of belief is really present), meaning you'll go to hell.
In light of the information I have, I can only make one conclusion, I can only have one belief. If someone wants me to chose another belief while having the same information is, "ironically", the same as demanding that I say a+1=3, where a=1 for me, while for the christian a=2. It doesn't make sense from my point of view, although I acknowledge fully that it makes sense for the Christian.
So you consider this a choice of belief. While I still don't consider it a choice. There is only one possible conclusion and I can only form one belief based on the information I have; what I understand 2+2 means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
What I understand a choice of belief (not a formation of belief) is the ability to jump from one belief to another, independent of the information I have.
Well as I said. I agree that what we usually call choice is present here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
But for the matter at hand, calling something that is inseparable from the information and thus deterministic to the formation of belief, can't in my opinion be called a choice. A certain kind of thinking and a certain kind of information will always lead to the same belief, so I don't call this choice. The word choice implies some form of free will: Will you choose the apple on the left or the apple on the right? The problem here is that you can't use the word choice when you ask that question, if there is no apple on the right!
This is not so relevant to the discussion at hand, but since this was the original catalyst to this thread and the real practical problem:
If I'm to be sent to hell for my beliefs, it wasn't because I chose hell or because I chose not to believe in a god, but because I had formed a belief based on the information I had and the specific thinking processes I can operate with. On some level, yes I made a choice, but it was completely determined by the factors I described before. If anyone is to be seriously blamed for this, it's the original source, whether it is the big bang, something before the big bang, some soul with free will, or even a god. I don't believe in souls with free will, so you see why I don't use the word choice or take the blame for this universal problem.
Nope, that's not going to cut it. I challenged you to choose to believe all three. When you were in school, did you turn in tests and say, "I answered that question. Grade me on just that one."? Show me the power of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I believe it since that is the common system most of the world uses and I get to communicate with lot more ease if I use the same system instead of inventing a new one for me.
Not that it would have any difference if I didn't, the subject isn't that interesting.
2.5+2.5 equals five.
I win.
But isn't it the same with atheist, in Christian's eyes. You choose to believe that God doesn't exist.
It goes both ways choice is to believe or not to believe, it's as simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
You act as if this debate is strictly governed by a set or prefix rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
The area in bold is the focus point. You can't decide to make something you know, unknown to yourself. The moment you were exposed to the information of God you made a decision to either believe that he exist or believe that he doesn't exist. Or, maybe you're just unsure and you're pending further information to allow you to make a belief. That other stuff regarding hell you mentioned sounds like some personal issues you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
Are you saying it doesn't make sense for you to be able to make a choice between rather to believe or not believe? I don't believe that is the case for you based off your current actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
In regards to the mathematically inclined yes there is only on possible conclusion with regards to 2+2 and for you and I the equation will equal 4 and we both asserted the positive belief that this is true, so we made a choice to believe that, the equation did not make the choice for us. However, for someone who is inept and indecisive about 2+2 =5, they have 2 choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
I positively believe 2+2=5 is true - belief
I positively believe 2+2=5 is false -disbelief
A formation of a belief to believe or not believe something is still a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
And I mentioned this somewhere before. Predetermined scenarios do not make choices for an individual. It doesn't matter how set in stone a truth appears for that claim, the individual would ultimately still have to make a decision rather to believe or not believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
You do realize you can also choose not to pick the apple on the left. Even if it's the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
No matter how you look at this Bonsay, sometime in your life someone said "God" to you and you made a choice and decided to assert the positive belief that God is false and if that's the case so be it. Stay true to yourself. If someone said you're going to hell because you do not believe in God, then why even entertain that? It shouldn't matter to you one way or the other in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
What difference does the other 2 make? You are challenging me to choose to believe in something and I have done that. So stop procrastinating and lets get on with this. And yes I did turn in some assignments in grade school that had some questions unanswered, why do you think that's so impossible?Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Your inability to choose 2 and 3 proves that choice is not the route to belief. Your Biloxi guess is based on the fact that it is the second most widely known city in Mississippi. You did not choose for it to seem like the truth. You think your guess is probably true because reality makes it seem that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
What is your claim on why you can't choose to believe 2 or 3? Why is choice not enough?
I asked if you turned in tests and asked to be graded on just one question, not if you ever left any test questions unanswered.
Here it's like you summed up my argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
Actually the equation, the way it exists in our heads, did make the choice for us. If the equation was different it would've made a completely different choice for us. It determines our belief on the matter at hand... so that's why I can't say that such a belief was chosen. Since all beliefs follow such a trend of equations which lead to an end belief, all beliefs are deterministic and not under the influence I'd call a choice. And as I said before, a choice of belief would mean switching beliefs or results without changing the equation, which looks as our example here: believing that 2+2=5.
The inept one doesn't have the information, so yes his belief can jump around all the time based on whatever at a certain point in time. In that regard he can't really take part in the "choose a belief" experiment, because the point here is to see if you can go against your nature to believe that 2+2=5, or that imran is a platypus from Jupiter, when you know or believe it isn't so.
I agree with everything you say. Yes I understand I'm making choices, as I said in that post. But the big point I'm trying to make is that in some grand scheme of things, my declaration of belief is determined by whatever the state of my brain is at the time. Therefore it can't hold the implications some believers make up. So yes, on my existential level I decide and choose on everything that happens to me and basically experience free will, sometime more and sometime less. But as I said, this thread and discussion started with the "you don't choose god therefore hell" arguments, to which my only defense is to try to logically shoot down the argument by taking an objective stance on several different levels. That's all there is to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I think that people who entertain beliefs where I go to hell, or something to that extent, as extremely dangerous and detrimental to our society/civilization as a whole and not only as something to laugh at or shrug off. Ask some suicide bomber victims how much peoples beliefs matter.
No my inability to choose 2 and 3 is a result that I lack belief in 2 and 3. I haven't been exposed to either one so I am undecided pending further information. It's simple to understand we lack belief in concepts we are unaware of and as a result we are agnostic toward such claims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
As I mentioned before, we only act based upon what we do believe, not upon what we do not believe. In other words, I do something because I believe something, not because I don't believe something. If I don't believe my car is stolen, then I don't do anything, but if believe it is, I contact the police. It is not lack of belief that moves us, but belief.
It doesn't matter I made a choice I believed it. Not only that, I researched it, and found out I was wrong in my belief as Hattiesburg is claimed to be the 2nd largest. Nevertheless I believed Biloxi was and that within itself just proves that belief is a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Mostly as I stated before I lack belief in 2 and 3 and also mostly impart to all that other stuff I just mentioned up there about acting on things we are aware of. It's all pretty irrelevant the fact of the matter is simply this. I believe God exist you believe that God does not exist. We made a decision to believe or not believe. That's all that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
You say all beliefs are deterministic, you sound as if you believe in fate. If all beliefs were truly deterministic then why are there so many different beliefs? Why do you believe something totally different than what I believe? Are you saying neither one of us made a decision upon our beliefs, our beliefs are independently influenced outside of our scope of reasoning and determined before we are aware of anything? That doesn't make sense to me and that I do not believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
It shouldn't matter rather someone has the ability to jump from one belief to another that just supports that belief is a choice even more so. Some people are more convicted to certain beliefs than others, some people are more logically capable than others also. The inept person would be a far better example just for the simple fact that it's fresh material for that individual. Everyone starts unaware of anything and if you want to investigate rather or not we can choose to believe we must start with nothing as we did when we first entered this world and then see the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
Well if you feel they are extremely dangerous and detrimental to our society you should do something about it. Join the military if you're in the U.S., If not create your own little militia with people who share your likeness, head out to Afghanistan and get some. Have your chance to tag and bag some suicide bombers because complaining about it isn't going to solve the issue now is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
No. What you're saying is that 3 + 3 = 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarboy
You should be saying 2.45 + 2.45 = 5.90 and rounded that is 2 + 2 = 5
Which is valid in inaccurate sciences (meaning everything but math), as one can only trust a number to the last valid digit. Therefore 2 + 2 = [3, 5>
Yes there is fate, why not? I still haven't been given a reason to believe I'm anything else but something that arises from what seems as a determined universe. We are so different, because we are. Our neurons are wired differently because of our genes and every other minuscule variable in our environment as we live out our lives. That's why the religions that equate every person on Earth don't work, people aren't equal and that's why heaven-hell idea is wrong or at the end at least proves that God is someone who doesn't give a shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
The only thing the indecisive person supports, is that a person who doesn't have his information or his thinking determined can't hold a specific belief. As I said before, we're talking about different concepts. Everybody here knows that anybody else can believe anything else under certain circumstances... give me a lobotomy, pump me up with drugs, brainwash me or indoctrinate me as a child and maybe I'll join some cult... that's not the question here. Actually your example of "we have to start as we did when we first entered the world" is more supportive of my claim than yours, since it's obvious that the majority inherits the beliefs and practices of their parents. Which proves how "choice of belief" isn't really a choice but something determined - in this case by our upbringing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
The question is whether a person who has a strong, supported belief can instantly choose another one without having proper reasons. And the answer is clearly no, normal people can't chose to believe they are a millionaire or that they can fly or that 2+2=5. I can't do it and that's what this thread is here for. To interview those who claim they can choose beliefs.
Why should I do something about it? I'm not trying to be some sick ideal of an atheist who puts believers into camps and kills them. The situation here is beyond control, so either religion will die by itself in X number of years, or it will not. I'm not somebody who wants to go to some old lady and preach how her whole life is a delusion, I'm just informing you on how I see the grand picture and the effect religions have in the world. Some kill albinos to make love potions, others burn witches, some creationists want to pull science back into the Middle Ages... excuse me for expecting something more worthy of a 21. century. But yeah, that's life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
To believe in fate as you do just postulates the idea that much more so regarding the fact that there is something higher than us that has mapped out our lives to the "T". You have to eventually come to grips with the fact that someone or something has an ultimate plan for you. You do not know that plan and with regards to fate you will never understand that plan but it is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
Its amazing how you can believe in Evolution where evolution signifies that Man knows exactly what's going on but then on the other hand you say that we don't have a clue to what is going on. How can we not be in control based off evolution? Science has so-called chronicled our progression from 3 million years ago and you say we do not know whats going on? We've developed theories with a high level of certainty and you say we do not know whats going on? The point I'm making is simple. In our modern world, with all that we know, it is difficult to believe that we know nothing.
Knowing something is knowing that you know nothing at all. Are you ready to accept that all the knowledge in the world may be relatively useless?
I don't see how that supports your claim at all? :wtf: We are born into this world not having any particular belief one way or the other. You made a choice someone in your life to believe that God does not exist. I made a choice somewhere in my life to believe that God does exist in either case we both made choices to believe something. So yes belief is a choice. You didn't come into this world believing that God does not exist, you came into this world undecided pending information to be supplied, once you've received the necessary information and became aware you made a decision to believe that God is false, plain and simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
This is the point you seem to be missing. People make choices to believe things or to believe in things. I believe myself as a millionaire is a false claim. Thats a belief I've asserted. Just because I will not switch that belief to some ridiculous claim doesn't mean I'm unable to make a choice regarding a belief. It's obvious that I've already established a belief based off a choice I made to believe, which supports that belief is a choice. How are you missing this???Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
Bonsay I think you're a pretty decent guy and you're sincere, so I'm going to say this. We are not regulated to a life of simplicity our actions actually matter, quite the contrary, we just dont understand how. Yes I know that may sound depressing, but realize that life is in your hands, you can define your purpose. Whether or not that purpose truly matters is debatable, as well as whether or not any purpose can be better than another but you can define the reason you like being, is this correct? Other than that, you have no way of knowing specifically how you will influence the universe, you can only assume that if you live life passionately, pursuing a life dedicated to wisdom and not knowledge, that your effect will be positive. In this life, that may be as good as it gets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
Your choosing to believe your answers on 2 and 3 are like my choosing to believe God exists. I used to believe in God, and the idea stopped making sense to me. It was not a choice, and I can't choose now to switch my belief back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I said I believe 2 and 3 are false, it doesn't mean I wasn't able to do anything. I made an action to believe one way or another. If you believe the same way that I believe then we should be in complete agreement that choice is a belief. Your example just supports my side of this argument more than anything. You stated you believed in god at one time and then at another time you stopped believing in him because it no longer made sense to you. The only thing to essentially understand is that regardless if outside information influenced your direction of belief, you still decided to act on something and all actions are choice driven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
The moment you've switched from one belief to another was based off an action. The moment you've initially established your belief in God previously was based off an action to do so. You had a belief that was true to you at a point in time in your life and another time in your life other information appeared in your field of vision influencing you to alter that belief to the point where now you believe your previous belief is false. As I stated before we act only on what we are aware of and for things we are oblivious to we do nothing. It really doesn't matter if the idea stopped making sense or not the fact of the matter is that, you've made an action based off something that you were aware of that did not make sense to you. Anytime you initiate an action you are deciding to "ACT" That's all there is to it. Your entire premise can be summed up as such.
Did you believe that God existence was true or false in the past?
Do you believe that God existence is true or false now?
Concepts like "something higher" don't mean much to me. Beside that, I've accepted the fact I'm just something following a plan a long time ago. Even though the word plan, like something higher, is just another vague concept implying intelligence, made up by the limited human psyche.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I don't really know where I stated we don't know all that stuff. About being ready to accept that all knowledge is relatively useless; I understand that statement as if you're talking about purpose or meaning, then yes, I've always believed those things as abstract, relative concepts made up by the human brain. I never though about the universe as something with a point to it, at least not in the everyday use of the word. If you mean knowledge as literally relatively useless, than I say it depends on ones perception of reality. If somebody thinks that life is purposeless than all knowledge is useless. If one has a purpose then knowledge isn't useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
We've been here before. Yes I know that's what we call making choices and as I said, nobody is disputing that fact or the fact that we make choices on thing all the time. Perhaps we'll find out it's just semantics in the end, maybe you'll see my view if I put it in this concentrated way:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
What do you call an event when somebody is able to change a belief even though it's contrary to everything he is able to believe at that moment. So what would you say if some generic professor of mathematics suddenly believes that 2+2=5? Lets say we somehow know his knowledge of mathematics was unchanged in this transition. I'd call this a choice of belief, implying a real, free choice. Why? Because it's not determined by what the man knows about the subject. If he was unable to do so, I'd see that as proof that beliefs are determined.
To parallel this with another example: You have me, I don't believe I can fly. Everything I know about reality makes me believe that. So I have a formed belief (or what you would apparently call a choice) with all the appropriate rationalizations backing it up. What I would call a choice of belief is me suddenly believing I can fly, even though my image of reality was unchanged. The only way I see this as possible is via some complex mental problem. Therefore I say that for every normal person this type of choice of belief is impossible. What do you think about this?
Basically this is the way I see the difference in our thinking.
You: Information ---choice--->belief
Me: Information ------------>belief
I understand this too. As I've said in some other debates, I've somehow split my worldview, because a specifically subjective one is inadequate if I really want to search for truth. Even though I talk about determinism and me being a chemical reaction, I'm also perfectly aware of my existential responsibilities. I don't know whether I want to give myself a purpose to live, beside just living itself. I'll leave that to life, I guess. Maybe not the important part of that quote, but I see wisdom as connected to knowledge, especially when looking at how we experience the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
You've accepted the fact that you're following a predetermined plan that has been mapped out for your life. It doesn't in no way interest you the maker of such a plan? But yet you know for some strange reason that it's all made up by humans? How can you possibly know such a thing without investigating the validity of such a concept? Does that even make sense to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
To accept that your life is determined and fated, then you must also accept that you have no idea of what's going on. There is no purpose for you here as you would see it. I cannot see it being understood as anything else but purpose and meaning. When you make a statement implying that your life is just a set of predetermined events leading to some predetermined destiny, then you're just merely implying that your residency here on Earth has been decided long before you've arrived to this Planet and your conscious is just along for some ride that you know nothing of. That just doesn't fit right with me.
We are not just talking about the ability to switch beliefs at any given moment. We have been talking about rather or not we have the ability to make choices period. This argument deals with free will and humans ability to make choices. You imply peoples lives are predetermined and all choices are fixed as is. If we look at the world through your eyes then no one is responsible for his/her actions and thats a scary thought if everyone felt the same way as you. It makes me appreciate that people make choices to believe one way or another that much more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
Based off how you see the difference in our thinking, it looks as if you do not process information. If I tell you that Your car is being stolen right now, what will you do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
Does this statement not contradict your position? How can you be aware of your responsibilities if you believe your life is fated? You believe your life is predestined for a particular outcome and hence, you must come to terms with the fact that you have no idea what is going on, but someone or something does. If you believe that the universe is guided by some unseen ultimate unseen plan, whatever that may be, you have to accept that you don't understand that plan and you do not understand why you do or believe the way that you believe. So no one is responsible for his/her actions and everyones action no matter how bad could be justified by the fact that they were just along for the ride. I don't know about you but that's a scary thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
No you didn't. You said you did not believe your answers. Being undecided is not believing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I switched beliefs, but it was not a choice. I did not decide for the concept to stop making sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
If belief is as simple as choice, then believe 2 and 3. If you can't do it, then belief requires at least more than a choice. I don't see where choice plays a role at all, but you should admit that choice alone is not enough.
Is that not the same as stating that I do not believe my answers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Me - "I said I believe 2 and 3 are false,"
You - "You said you did not believe your answers."
All you did here was reinforced what I just stated. :wtf:
I didn't ask you rather or not something stop making sense. You never answer my question. I'll assume you missed it so here it goes again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Did you believe that God existence was true or false in the past?
Do you believe that God existence is true or false now?
Of course there is a requirement of more than just a choice, you need information. I can't just say out of the blue "you know what? I think I'm going to start believing that yellow and orange stripped elephants are at the center of the earth." What sense would that be for me to believe that if I'm completely oblivious to yellow and orange stripped elephants at the center of the earth? Now on the other hand, lets say you came up to me and said "Hey Ne-yo, did you know its a scientific fact that there are yellow and orange stripped elephants at the center of the earth and we are connected to them biologically because of evolution?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Now whats going to happen here is based off my rational thinking I'm going to process this information and begin to categorize it as such...
I believe this claim is false
I'm undecided rather this claim is true or false
I believe this claim is true.
I may not just jump to the conclusion that the claim is true or false. I may actually be undecided about such a claim pending further information. Considering this is the first I've heard of such a thing. No one just believes random out of the blue stuff that doesn't in some way relate to them. I believe my answers to numbers 2 and 3 are false because I made them up. Either way I still asserted a belief and you cannot say that I haven't. The basis of this entire argument is based upon belief being a choice or not. I believe my answers to number 2 and 3 are false I made a choice to believe this way because of how uncertain I am for their accuracy.
How can I possibly know it was made up by humans? I don't, but it appears to be so. Call it my religion, but I just can't believe that concepts would exist without humans. To me it seems like we are here by chance and now we're trying to define everything as best we can. As I said in another post, I haven't really heard of a scientific use of the word design or purpose and I don't see how it can be wedged in. So when you might see purpose in the universe, I just see things happening... Is the cell designed with a mitochondria so it can breathe, or does it happen to exist because it helped the cell to survive and outmatch other organisms? Sorry, when I "philosophize" about things, I tend not to be subjective about it. So no, it doesn't interest me who the maker is, since I don't believe in makers and thus I wouldn't be to motivated to search for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
Well we just have different preferences. It fits with me perfectly. The mystery is what makes life interesting. The fact I might be a wheel in some machine, thinking I'm turning on my own accord, doesn't phase me.Quote:
To accept that your life is determined and fated, then you must also accept that you have no idea of what's going on. There is no purpose for you here as you would see it. I cannot see it being understood as anything else but purpose and meaning. When you make a statement implying that your life is just a set of predetermined events leading to some predetermined destiny, then you're just merely implying that your residency here on Earth has been decided long before you've arrived to this Planet and your conscious is just along for some ride that you know nothing of. That just doesn't fit right with me.
Well I don't see anyone as responsible for their actions. As I said, I have to live on this level where free will exists and is something you can't escape. But from the objective point of view, then yes, I don't see the difference between a lightning strike killing somebody or somebody being killed by a person.Quote:
We are not just talking about the ability to switch beliefs at any given moment. We have been talking about rather or not we have the ability to make choices period. This argument deals with free will and humans ability to make choices. You imply peoples lives are predetermined and all choices are fixed as is. If we look at the world through your eyes then no one is responsible for his/her actions and thats a scary thought if everyone felt the same way as you.
Why exactly would it be scary if other people felt like me? You see, what you're doing is extracting one part of my world view and pasting it on some generic everyday normal point of view. Now suddenly the normal person loses all his morals because he believes it's all predetermined, that all responsibility is gone and starts killing people. Yes that would be scary, but that's not how I see the world.
Well, what that makes me appreciate is that people can't really make choices to believe one way or another, because that way people could actually choose the "killer with an existential dilemma" world view we see as scary.Quote:
It makes me appreciate that people make choices to believe one way or another that much more.
I would believe you and run off to take a look.Quote:
Based off how you see the difference in our thinking, it looks as if you do not process information. If I tell you that Your car is being stolen right now, what will you do?
If you're asking me if I've solved the mind-body problem, then no. Because I know my life is determined, I know or can deduce why I might do or think something or in what way that can be influenced. The simple fact that my brains is built the way it is, makes me into a person with those kinds of values and perceived responsibilities.Quote:
Does this statement not contradict your position? How can you be aware of your responsibilities if you believe your life is fated?
Ne-yo, I don't even see what we are disagreeing on at this point other than your comment that you chose to believe your answers to 2 and 3 are probably false. You had no choice but to think they are wild guesses that are probably false. It's where reality took your perception. Overall, we seem to be on the same page now. So, do you get why atheists can't choose to be Christians? Do you see that atheists never chose atheism? It's all about how things seem.
To answer your questions, I used to be a Christian and now I am an atheist. Going back would take more than choice. Right?
No we are not nowhere near in accordance on this issue. The fact is this essentially. You made a choice to become the Atheist that you are. You wasn't born into this world that way. I have to have something to go on in order to have a belief or disbelief that seems to be the point that you're missing. We just don't believe or disbelieve with nothing to support the reason why. There will always be something that influence a decision, decisions just don't happen spontaneously out of thin air for no apparent reason. You can call it a fixed predetermined rule, it doesn't matter you make the choice the choice doesn't make you. And if you like, just because how good that bold statement sound, you are more than welcome to throw that piece of information into your signature. :goodjob2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
So you went from one belief to another. You were a Christian who believed at one point and now you're an atheist who no longer believes because there is not sufficient evidence or reason to do so anymore. I call that choice because you made a decision followed by an action to go from one to the other. I can understand if you were born the type of Atheist you are, then I would support your claim, but since you were not then it becomes pretty obvious that you made a choice to stop believing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Exactly. That's right. I totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
Please don't ever act like that again. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
No, I did not make a decision to go from one to the other. I was trying to hold on to Christianity and could not do it. I remember the moment it happened. I could not believe, and I cannot do it now. Belief is not a choice. That is why you can't choose to believe your answers to 2 and 3. There's just not enough to go on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo