Thread: "Choosing to Believe" 2 + 2 = 5: The Interviews

This subject came up when certain theists claimed that belief is a choice. That seems to be a common belief among Christians. It of course relates to whether a person can actually choose to believe in God. A few people here claimed that they have chosen to believe that 2 + 2 = 5, and two of them said they did it while having a dialogue with me. They told me that after the supposed fact, so I never got to talk to them while they were in that claimed state of mind. So I challenge anybody to make a choice to in total honesty believe that 2 + 2 = 5 and answer questions for people in this thread. Interviewing people while in a state of chosen belief of an absurd mathematical statement should be very interesting and educational. Set the record straight and let us talk to you while you are in this state of 2 + 2 = 5 consciousness. Who can do it?

This ought to be interesting.

I'll start:

"(2785/27.983)^2" equals what?

Get me two rocks, get me two more, and put them in a pile. Now count them.

If one of the rocks break, you'll have 5 rocks.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

If one of the rocks break, you'll have 5 rocks.

But I'll still have the same amount of rocks in my pile, cracked into pieces or not. Just different fractions.

You'll have the same weight of rocks. But you'll have more rocks now, thats pretty obvious. You forgot to define 'rock'. Anything can be a rock, how can you tell the difference between a rock and a fraction? Isn't a rock actually already a fraction of a bigger rock?

Another example: Put 2 women together with 2 men and you'll end up with 5 people after a long enough time.

Originally Posted by Maestro

But I'll still have the same amount of rocks in my pile, cracked into pieces or not. Just different fractions.

If you take a crumb and break it in two, how many crumbs do you now have?

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

"(2785/27.983)^2" equals what?

bump...

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

This ought to be interesting.

I'll start:

"(2785/27.983)^2" equals what?

9,905.17.........

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

This subject came up when certain theists claimed that belief is a choice. That seems to be a common belief among Christians. It of course relates to whether a person can actually choose to believe in God. A few people here claimed that they have chosen to believe that 2 + 2 = 5, and two of them said they did it while having a dialogue with me. They told me that after the supposed fact, so I never got to talk to them while they were in that claimed state of mind. So I challenge anybody to make a choice to in total honesty believe that 2 + 2 = 5 and answer questions for people in this thread. Interviewing people while in a state of chosen belief of an absurd mathematical statement should be very interesting and educational. Set the record straight and let us talk to you while you are in this state of 2 + 2 = 5 consciousness. Who can do it?

Have you ever read the book, 1984?

Didn't bother reading through this thread, but if it's talking about doublethink: I remember when I was a Christian facing the overwhelming evidence against Genesis(and other books in the bible) and I described to my Grandmother how I was able to reconcile the Bible while still holding onto science and logic trees. I described it using an analogy to doublethink in 1984.

Edit: Oh shit, I was completely off topic.

How amazingly convenient that I've never seen this thread before and it's been in existence all of this time.

I'm crushing this thread it ends here and now!

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

This subject came up when certain theists claimed that belief is a choice. That seems to be a common belief among Christians. It of course relates to whether a person can actually choose to believe in God. A few people here claimed that they have chosen to believe that 2 + 2 = 5, and two of them said they did it while having a dialogue with me. They told me that after the supposed fact, so I never got to talk to them while they were in that claimed state of mind. So I challenge anybody to make a choice to in total honesty believe that 2 + 2 = 5 and answer questions for people in this thread. Interviewing people while in a state of chosen belief of an absurd mathematical statement should be very interesting and educational. Set the record straight and let us talk to you while you are in this state of 2 + 2 = 5 consciousness. Who can do it?

Lets start.

2+2 cannot equal 5 for me. You cannot ask me to believe in something that I've already established as a false. 2+2=4 to me. I've already made my choice about this a long time ago. So in lieu of this I'm making a choice to not believe that 2+2=5.

Now lets say you're thinking "of course he cannot believe it because it's already predetermined as a false" Regardless if it has been predetermined as a false the choice is still entirely up to me whether or not I'm willing to believe that 2+2=5. That's the key word here "The choice is up to me" Give this same equation to someone that is mathematically inept and that person may very well believe that 2+2=5. Even if you and I know it's an absurd equation, and we both know it's a predetermined false. For someone else in this world 2+2=5 is either true, false or they are undecided (pending further evidence). The choice is up to that individual. Predetermined factors do not make choices for us. We make choices for ourselves whether or not we are willing to believe such an absurd equation and I made a choice to not believe that 2+2=5.

Besides how ridiculous for you to ask someone to believe something they've already made a choice on? You should ask someone to try believing in something that they are completely oblivious to and then see what answers you get.

The floor is open for your rebuttal. Good luck

I redefine the current value of 4 to be what the current value of 5 is and vice-versa.

2+2=5

2+3=4

That doesn't work, because then 2 = 5 - 2 = 3 and 2 = 4 -3 = 1; 1 =! 2 =! 3...

It's an interesting question actually. Really 2 + 2 = 4 isn't a 'basic' equation; you should really prove it from the axioms and some simpler statement. 4 is in fact shorthand for 1 + 1 + 1 + 1, and 2 shorthand for 1 + 1. Therfore we have

2 + 2 = (1 + 1) + (1 + 1) = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (associativity of natural numbers under addition) = (1 + 1 + 1 + 1) = 4.

So really 2 + 2 = 4 is a result of the existence of the natural number 1 and the validity of associativity of addition. If you want to disprove 2 + 2 = 4 you'll have to disprove one of the above.

Actually associativity can be proven in even more fundamental terms using sets but let's not go there.

You guys are putting way to much into this. It's not about the equation, it's about the belief.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

2+2 cannot equal 5 for me. You cannot ask me to believe in something that I've already established as a false. 2+2=4 to me. I've already made my choice about this a long time ago. So in lieu of this I'm making a choice to not believe that 2+2=5.

Your argument is that it is impossible for a person to change beliefs? That's false. My views on specific issues have changed lots of times, and I bet yours have too. But let's say you're right about that. By your argument, it is too late for me to become a Christian, and it is too late for anybody with any other religion to ever become a Christian. The only time a person can become a Christian is when he has just been introduced to Christianity after never having had a different religious views.

That's a pretty crazy stretch.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Now lets say you're thinking "of course he cannot believe it because it's already predetermined as a false" Regardless if it has been predetermined as a false the choice is still entirely up to me whether or not I'm willing to believe that 2+2=5. That's the key word here "The choice is up to me" Give this same equation to someone that is mathematically inept and that person may very well believe that 2+2=5. Even if you and I know it's an absurd equation, and we both know it's a predetermined false. For someone else in this world 2+2=5 is either true, false or they are undecided (pending further evidence). The choice is up to that individual. Predetermined factors do not make choices for us. We make choices for ourselves whether or not we are willing to believe such an absurd equation and I made a choice to not believe that 2+2=5.

Oh, so now it is possible? Well then... take me up on the challenge. Decide to sincerely believe that 2 + 2 = 5 and let me interview you while you believe it. Come on. Make the choice.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Besides how ridiculous for you to ask someone to believe something they've already made a choice on? You should ask someone to try believing in something that they are completely oblivious to and then see what answers you get.

Ridiculous? You said belief is a choice. So what's the problem with challenging people to choose a certain belief? You made a choice, and you can (according to you) make a choice again. Make the choice. Let's see this in action. Back up what you are claiming.

Tell me about the moment you decided to believe that 2 + 2 = 4. How old were you? What was the weather like? Why didn't you decide to believe that 2 + 2 = 1? I want to know about that big moment of decision when you had so many paths you could go down. If you had chosen 1, you would still believe it, right? I mean, since once a belief is chosen it is set in stone for life even though you can choose your beliefs. That doesn't make any sense, does it? You might want to try giving a different argument.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Your argument is that it is impossible for a person to change beliefs? That's false. My views on specific issues have changed lots of times, and I bet yours have too. But let's say you're right about that.

No I didn't say it was impossible to change a belief, what I'm conveying is essentially this. If someone is strongly convicted to a 'particular belief' (not all) that they are positive of beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's either true or false then the possibility of having someone chose otherwise is just more than likely not going to happen. Can you honestly believe that 2+2= 5? I can't do it, because I have made a choice that I'm positive that 2+2=5 is ridiculous and I choose to disbelieve this claim. It's in the same sense of your Atheistic position. Do you have a strong belief that God doesn't exist beyond the shadow of a doubt? Or, are you really undecided and you're pending further evidence?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Oh, so now it is possible? Well then... take me up on the challenge. Decide to sincerely believe that 2 + 2 = 5 and let me interview you while you believe it. Come on. Make the choice.

I'm taking you up on the challenge. You're asking me to believe that 2+2 = 5. I'm telling you that I've established a positive belief that 2+2=5 is false. So I'm in disbelief of such a ridiculous equation. That's another thing also you seem to be missing. If a claim is presented to someone and that claim is ridiculous to that person then disbelief is applied to that claim.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Ridiculous? You said belief is a choice. So what's the problem with challenging people to choose a certain belief? You made a choice, and you can (according to you) make a choice again. Make the choice. Let's see this in action. Back up what you are claiming.

There is no problem that I see with you challenging people to choose a certain belief, you're just asking the wrong question. You're asking a pre-establish false for anyone that is mathematically capable. As I mentioned before this question should be directed toward someone who is inept in addition.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Tell me about the moment you decided to believe that 2 + 2 = 4. How old were you? What was the weather like? Why didn't you decide to believe that 2 + 2 = 1? I want to know about that big moment of decision when you had so many paths you could go down. If you had chosen 1, you would still believe it, right?

You're still going about this the wrong way and asking the wrong question. As a child I as well as you could change beliefs about things in heartbeat. I believed in Santa Clause as a young child, do I believe in him now? Not since that day I saw the old man putting those presents under the tree.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I mean, since once a belief is chosen it is set in stone for life even though you can choose your beliefs. That doesn't make any sense, does it? You might want to try giving a different argument.

I never said all beliefs were set in stone. What I stated, is that, people cannot change their position on something that they are positively convicted to and I just happen to be positively convicted to the belief that 2+2 = 4 and so are you.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

By your argument, it is too late for me to become a Christian, and it is too late for anybody with any other religion to ever become a Christian. The only time a person can become a Christian is when he has just been introduced to Christianity after never having had a different religious views.

I put this quote at the end because it fits better here.

By my argument if you are completely in positive belief that God does not exist then yes, it's too late for you to become a Christian because nothing I say or anyone else is going to make you choose otherwise. However, if you are 'undecided' about God's existence then your choice to believe or disbelieve is pending. Which one are you?

This thread is on fire! lol, 26 pages.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Can you honestly believe that 2+2= 5? I can't do it...

Really?










I mean really?

Listen to what you're saying once in a while.