Thread: A proof for the non-existence of God

Originally Posted by NeoSioType

Why would God go out of his way and make everything perfect forever? That's just boring. He obviously wishes to witness something from his creations, so if we were perfect in a perfect would why would he even bother?

Oh I get it God is a self indulgent ass then. =P Because if I had children I would be just like him, I would want freaky random crappy things to happen to my child, because if it was perfect and he never had any problems and was happy that would be boring to me. In fact not only would I want them to happen, I would cause them to.

Also its our faluts and suffering that makes us who we are. Without these how would we ever become stronger people?

Originally Posted by NeoSioType

Also its our faluts and suffering that makes us who we are. Without these how would we ever become stronger people?

What do you mean, how is making us stronger conected to suffering? Just curious. Also I agree that it is our faults that partially make us humans, this means nothing though since maby we could just as easy have been something else, the theory of this has not been tested either, right? If it ever could?! If it has, correct me!

Usually those who have suffered develop moral values, as in empathy. For example someone being bullied at a young age might shy away from doing it themselves, because they understand the pain they help create. Sometimes they become bullies themselves though.

Another example: think about two identical twins. One is rich/famous and a spoiled brat. He has everything he could ever want and he's happy. The other grew up poor. Common sense will tell you the poorer twin's a lot nicer than the richer one. Don't take this as always 100 percent though, it depends on the choices they themselves make.

Originally Posted by NeoSioType

Usually those who have suffered develop moral values, as in empathy. For example someone being bullied at a young age might shy away from doing it themselves, because they understand the pain they help create. Sometimes they become bullies themselves though.

Another example: think about two identical twins. One is rich/famous and a spoiled brat. He has everything he could ever want and he's happy. The other grew up poor. Common sense will tell you the poorer twin's a lot nicer than the richer one. Don't take this as always 100 percent though, it depends on the choices they themselves make.

Well the problem in this case is that in reality the poorer twin in the worst cases will get unemployed, drugadict or likewise when the richer twin will get elected president, wheter or not this guy's actualy quite nice at the time...

By the way, which choises do you recon they make for themselves?

yeah... there's far too many variables that are being put in play(Where they live, ect). I couldn't really say what choices they make. We would have to know (be God himself) and follow them though there entire lives.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

I get the feeling that one day you're going to go into all the forums and make 19 threads in each forum - all titled "HAHA YOU GOT pWND!"

Who - me?

Originally Posted by gratismat

This is a perfectly good example of what I mean by limiting your mind, to think you need faith to understand is just not true, for instance as I've mentioned before there is such a theory of the universe that it expands and a lot of things, I can see how it makes sense but in this case religion would be equevalent to some kind of force that's preventing you from taking the blindfold of...

This case is not religion; I've already outlined that. It is Spirituality.

Science measures the Universe, but Spirit Experiences It. It is only so recently that science has reached its boundaries and discovered its limits.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I have faith that if I squeeze my hands at odd intervals it will make sure that the boogie man doesn't eat me.

That's not Faith, that's confusion.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Faith is something that is literally a useless concept. I believe in trust, as in trusting other human beings when they deserve trust, however,

Faith is trust in God. Anything is relatively useless if you ignore its uses.

Would it help you in my analogy if I revealed that Faith was one and the same with "someone removing your blindfold"?

Originally Posted by Sandform

religious faith is only one of the many useless concepts I have found being explored on Earth.

We are not talking about the impurities of Religion. We are talking about its flawless Essence.

Originally Posted by Sandform

don't tell people you have the answer when you obviously don't.

Are you talking to me? What questions; what answers?

Originally Posted by NeoSioType

Why would God go out of his way and make everything perfect forever?
...

He obviously wishes to witness something from his creations, so if we were perfect in a perfect would why would he even bother?

God and his ways are One and the same. The ego cannot comprehend this ^; it even fears knowing it. "No! No! No! Not perfection!! Then I shall be bored forever!!" Look:

Originally Posted by NeoSioType

That's just boring.

It fears this. It thinks anything this good must be boring. But being as distorted as it is, the ego cannot even grasp Perfection! It doesn't know that God as Absolute Eternal Perfection, means forever without imperfection! To be bored, is a product of the ego; implying that there always needs to be better things; it always needs entertaining. If the ego ever caught sight of God, it would be annihilated.

Originally Posted by NeoSioType

Also its our faluts and suffering that makes us who we are. Without these how would we ever become stronger people?

That must mean if we are stronger, we will not be "who we are"? Humans make mistakes, the benefit is learning from them. But the most common mistake of mankind is the sin of ignorance, because of this, we will never know who we truly are unless we surrender our illusions.

Lets start here.

Originally Posted by really

That's not Faith, that's confusion.

Maybe I should say it another way...I have Faith that if I squeeze my hands in odd intervals God will protect me from the boogie man. (boogie man can be a metaphor for any bad thing in life. It is still as ludicrous)

Or is the only faith your speaking of is that he exists? In which case that is a fool's bargain.

Originally Posted by really

Faith is trust in God. Anything is relatively useless if you ignore its uses.

Trust in God has no uses to ignore. Except easing your mind, for no reason, you could just as easily say I don't give a shit.

Please inform me of the use of Faith.

Originally Posted by really

Would it help you in my analogy if I revealed that Faith was one and the same with "someone removing your blindfold"?

You've already said that and that doesn't help, because its not really removing a blindfold at all...its continuing to have a blindfold on (because all people have one on) and just believing that you aren't wearing one. Or I should say, it's not acknowledging that you have no clue what your talking about.

Originally Posted by really

We are not talking about the impurities of Religion. We are talking about its flawless Essence.

I don't understand why that sentence was used in response to what I said...I was simply saying that there are lots of things that are completely pointless, and religion is just one of them.

Originally Posted by really

Are you talking to me? What questions; what answers?

The question to what is important in life. God is not the answer, because there is no evidence for which, if any, God actually exists.

Just in case you forgot about it, I'm not saying you did, I only say because it was a small sentence in a bunch of other sentences, but, please inform me of the use of faith.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey while I'm on this topic, I wanted to ask, can someone explain to me how what my side of the argument is considered a straw man argument to the opposite side?
I am in parenthesis.


No actually, atheists depend quite heavily on blind faith. Atheists don't have identical beliefs. However there is a core of beliefs common to most atheists. So while all atheists may not believe the following, all the following are blindly embraced by Atheists:

1) Nothing produces everything, (God comes from no where)
2) Non-life produces life, (God, who just exists/lives from no where, created life.)
3) Randomness produces fine-tuning, (God is just perfect, randomly)
4) Chaos produces information, (Information is a subject for a large thread)
5) Unconsciousness produces consciousness, (ungod produces god) and
6) Non-reason produces reason? (Well, seriously you should get the point by now)

Then their response.

hmmmm Strawmen arguments
1)Only effects require causes, God is the first cause.
2) God is the essence of all life.
3) Since the standard of perfection is determined by how things 'ought to be' then it follows that God is definably perfect.
4) Have an exploding printing press produce a dictionary, and then talk about information.
5) Again, only effects require causes...
6) Is that a reason?

I so don't get Christianity-- Your purose is to have a purpose?

Wat?

Originally Posted by Sandform

Maybe I should say it another way...I have Faith that if I squeeze my hands in odd intervals God will protect me from the boogie man. (boogie man can be a metaphor for any bad thing in life. It is still as ludicrous)

Yes, it is ludicrous, because it is based upon confused beliefs. It is much more clear if you say: "I have Confusion that if I squeeze my hands in odd intervals God will protect me from the boogie man. "

Originally Posted by Sandform

Or is the only faith your speaking of is that he exists? In which case that is a fool's bargain.

Don't underestimate Faith in God. Perhaps learn about God first.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Trust in God has no uses to ignore. Except easing your mind, for no reason, you could just as easily say I don't give a shit.

Please inform me of the use of Faith.

Why do you ask for someone to explain "observation" when you have no conception of "sight"?

Originally Posted by Sandform

You've already said that and that doesn't help, because its not really removing a blindfold at all...its continuing to have a blindfold on (because all people have one on) and just believing that you aren't wearing one. Or I should say, it's not acknowledging that you have no clue what your talking about.

You seem to have no clue what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I don't understand why that sentence was used in response to what I said...I was simply saying that there are lots of things that are completely pointless, and religion is just one of them.

I will post this again, but refine it a little:

Originally Posted by really

Spiritual Information may be corrupted by the following:

Generally starts with Avatar of Enlightenment (Pure) -> Teachings of Spirituality/God-View-> Religion (Depends on Context: Values/Politics/Time/Place/Language/Translation/Transmission of Information) -> Audience's interpretation (Depends on Context: Values/Politics/Time/Place/Language/Translation/Reception of Information-Intelligence/Consciousness of person perceiving/processing that information). Thus, accurate knowledge of God depends upon Karma.

Originally Posted by Sandform

The question to what is important in life. God is not the answer, because there is no evidence for which, if any, God actually exists.

Don't ignore the people who have the evidence (you also have [ignored your] evidence, but spiritual masters can help you awaken to it). If you do ignore these people altogether, you are just in denial. In the blindfold analogy, listen well, and those who can See can help you remove the blindfold altogether - which you are not fully aware of wearing.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

I so don't get Christianity-- Your purose is to have a purpose?

Not "getting" something is merely misunderstanding it.

Originally Posted by really

Don't ignore the people who have the evidence (you also have [ignored your] evidence, but spiritual masters can help you awaken to it). If you do ignore these people altogether, you are just in denial. In the blindfold analogy, listen well, and those who can See can help you remove the blindfold altogether - which you are not fully aware of wearing.

If evidence could be found by talking to a spiritual master, science would be in deep shit.

Originally Posted by really

Yes, it is ludicrous, because it is based upon confused beliefs. It is much more clear if you say: "I have Confusion that if I squeeze my hands in odd intervals God will protect me from the boogie man. "

And who decides what is a 'Confusion' and what is faith? You?

I'm still waiting on the list that says what about faith is usefull about faith, besides feeling better...

Originally Posted by Korittke

If evidence could be found by talking to a spiritual master, science would be in deep shit.

It has nothing to do with typical science. It is not scientific evidence, it is experiential evidence that is beyond linear comprehension; non-linear evidence. Are you implying there is none?

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

And who decides what is a 'Confusion' and what is faith? You?

Whoever can tell the difference, not knowing the difference is the source of error. I can see that you are deriving problems from solutions; which indicates conscious limitation.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I'm still waiting on the list that says what about faith is usefull about faith, besides feeling better...

It brings about consequences beyond imagination. Perhaps you should pay attention to what I have already posted; look into Spirituality, you won't regret it.

How is there a difference between believing in "ridiculous thing A" with no evidence and "ridiculous thing B" with no evidence? How is having faith in X better than having faith in Y, if you have no evidence for either?

Originally Posted by NeoSioType

Why would God go out of his way and make everything perfect forever? That's just boring.

A boring existence is a flawed one and not perfect. A perfect one wouldn't be boring.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Clearly God is a sadistic, lazy bastard.

If he cared so much why not just directly tell us? Or just make us believe? Huh?

Clearly God does not care then.

I thought you didn't believe in God!

God is evolving through us.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

God is evolving through us.

I thought it was just heartburn.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I thought you didn't believe in God!

I don't.

Hence my argument against his existence.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

God is evolving through us.

That sounds painful

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

God is evolving through us.

We are evolving through God.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

How is there a difference between believing in "ridiculous thing A" with no evidence and "ridiculous thing B" with no evidence? How is having faith in X better than having faith in Y, if you have no evidence for either?

This is not about being "better than", it is about recognizing the difference between what is faith, and what is confusion. Then, you can move forward to God with knowingness, not belief.

Say something meaningful or GTFO.
If there is a difference between 'faith' and 'confusion', say it.
If one is not better than the other, than tell me that "if I squeeze my hands at odd intervals, god will protect me from the boogyman" is equally as valid as anything else.
Don't dodge the question.

"You're wrong, I'm right" is not a solution.

Originally Posted by NeoSioType

Also its our faluts and suffering that makes us who we are. Without these how would we ever become stronger people?

If God is truly all powerful, he could do it.


Also two easier points to argue against:


1) We actually can become stronger people without having to contract diseases and get pwned by nazis, for example we can become stronger people from working together on a team to fulfill a purpose, we don't suffer but we still develop as people just in the same way and there is no need for all the horrendous nastiness of the world.

2) There are clear examples of where there can be no possible way of anybody or anythign becoming stronger from pain. One such example is if there is a deer in an isolated forest, alone, lightning strikes a branch which falls on the deer and crushes it. It doesn't die for a few days, and no other creature comes into contact with it. The whole time it is in immense pain before finally dying and rotting away. Considering the size and history of the earth, this situation has liekly happened many many times, and really, where is the soul growth or strength for anything from this senseless pain?

[There are human examples too, in case you don't think animals have a soul or whatever]