God Cannot be perfect.

**Sornaensis** · 01-27-2008 12:02 AM

If god were perfect, then he would not be able to create flawed things. Like everything. If nothing is perfect, then god cannot be perfect, because he created everything! And if he was perfect, then everything he did, everything he created, would be prefect, and flawless. But it is not. So therefore, god cannot be perfect.

**Riot Maker** · 01-27-2008 12:03 AM

im guessing you never heard of origional sin, the fallen angels and the devil.

**Kushna Mufeed** · 01-27-2008 12:06 AM

The way I see it, if everything was perfect in of itself, everything as a whole would end up being imperfect. If the mouse was perfect, the hawk would never be able to catch it.

**Universal Mind** · 01-27-2008 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

If god were perfect, then he would not be able to create flawed things. Like everything. If nothing is perfect, then god cannot be perfect, because he created everything! And if he was perfect, then everything he did, everything he created, would be prefect, and flawless. But it is not. So therefore, god cannot be perfect.

God has no choice but to use his infinite power to create imperfection because he is bound by certain laws he created and could easily change. He can do anything he wants, but he cannot make a perfect universe even though he can.

Theists, is that a correct assessment? I know it looks sarcastic, but I strained my brain here for a very long time trying to understand the resolution to that issue, and the assessment I just gave is honestly the best I can do at arguing your side. Absurdity always looks like sarcasm. I will be glad to read your answers to Seismosaur's post.

**Sornaensis** · 01-27-2008 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by Riot Maker

im guessing you never heard of origional sin, the fallen angels and the devil.

But that would not have happened if god had made them perfect!

And Original sin makes no sense seeing god is a benevolent, all loving being!

**Universal Mind** · 01-27-2008 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed

The way I see it, if everything was perfect in of itself, everything as a whole would end up being imperfect. If the mouse was perfect, the hawk would never be able to catch it.

Could God change that? (Everybody prepare to see that question in response to every theistic answer given in here. You will see my point that infinite power has no limitations and that it is therefore not logical to talk about it as though it has limitations.)

**Sornaensis** · 01-27-2008 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Could God change that?

Ah, yes. A different kind of perfect?

**psychology student** · 01-27-2008 12:09 AM

If something is imperfect, how can it judge whether something else is perfect?

**Sornaensis** · 01-27-2008 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by psychology student

If something is imperfect, how can it judge whether something else is perfect?

So you're saying god isn't perfect?

**Kushna Mufeed** · 01-27-2008 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

God has no choice but to use his infinite power to create imperfection because he is bound by certain laws he created and could easily change. He can do anything he wants, but he cannot make a perfect universe even though he can.

Theists, is that a correct assessment? I know it looks sarcastic, but I strained my brain here for a very long time trying to understand the resolution to that issue, and the assessment I just gave is honestly the best I can do at arguing your side. Absurdity always looks like sarcasm. I will be glad to read your answers to Seismosaur's post.

I can't say that's right. God did not intend to create this universe perfect. Somewhere in the Qur'an, it says that if this Universe were worth a wing's fly to God, he would not allow those who didn't believe in him to drink from the water. This life isn't supposed to be perfect, it's the afterlife in Paradise that's supposed to be.

**Universal Mind** · 01-27-2008 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed

I can't say that's right. God did not intend to create this universe perfect. Somewhere in the Qur'an, it says that if this Universe were worth a wing's fly to God, he would not allow those who didn't believe in him to drink from the water. This life isn't supposed to be perfect, it's the afterlife in Paradise that's supposed to be.

Then God is not totally good.

**Daeva** · 01-27-2008 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

If god were perfect, then he would not be able to create flawed things. Like everything. If nothing is perfect, then god cannot be perfect, because he created everything! And if he was perfect, then everything he did, everything he created, would be prefect, and flawless. But it is not. So therefore, god cannot be perfect.

By your logic a Master craftsmen cannot make an imperfect representation of his craft. Just because one can make a high quality item, doesn't mean they have to. Sort of like, 'Just because I can make straight A's in school doesn't mean I have to."

Not that I'm a theist, just felt I'd point that out.

**Sornaensis** · 01-27-2008 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed

I can't say that's right. God did not intend to create this universe perfect. Somewhere in the Qur'an, it says that if this Universe were worth a wing's fly to God, he would not allow those who didn't believe in him to drink from the water. This life isn't supposed to be perfect, it's the afterlife in Paradise that's supposed to be.

But what you forget that, in his perfection, god cannot make something imperfet becasue he is perfect. Making something imperfect makes him imperfect!

**Falsn** · 01-27-2008 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

If god were perfect, then he would not be able to create flawed things. Like everything. If nothing is perfect, then god cannot be perfect, because he created everything! And if he was perfect, then everything he did, everything he created, would be prefect, and flawless. But it is not. So therefore, god cannot be perfect.

That just doesn't make any sense at all.

**Mes Tarrant** · 01-27-2008 12:14 AM

Yeah I think god intentionally created imperfection. It's all part of his plan.

Do not question the plan.

**psychology student** · 01-27-2008 12:14 AM

No, Im saying you're not perfect.

**Sornaensis** · 01-27-2008 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by Enzo

That just doesn't make any sense at all.

Yes it does. Being perfect, he cannot be flawed. Making something flawed inheretly makes him imperfect because he made mistakes. Perfection means he doesn't make mistakes, is the perfect example for all.

**Kushna Mufeed** · 01-27-2008 12:16 AM

It's not a mistake if he meant to do it.

**Daeva** · 01-27-2008 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Yes it does. Being perfect, he cannot be flawed. Making something flawed inheretly makes him imperfect because he made mistakes. Perfection means he doesn't make mistakes, is the perfect example for all.

In the alien mind of a God, I'd reason that what we might view as an imperfection or a mistake makes perfect sense to him. Sort of like a Psychopath's logic. Everything make sense to him, but well..He's just plain fucking crazy the way everyone else see's it!

**Falsn** · 01-27-2008 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by psychology student

No, Im saying you're not perfect.

Of course, we aren't perfect.

**Universal Mind** · 01-27-2008 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed

It's not a mistake if he meant to do it.

Why would he create the imperfection that results in suffering if he is both infinitely powerful and totally good? Remember that infinite power involves not being bound by any laws of reality.

**Daeva** · 01-27-2008 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Why would he create the imperfection that results in suffering if he is both infinitely powerful and totally good? Remember that infinite power involves not being bound by any laws of reality.

Good is subjective; what you view as good could be completely different from what 'God' views as good, unless you can claim to understand the 'mindset' of 'God'.

**Mes Tarrant** · 01-27-2008 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Why would he create the imperfection that results in suffering if he is both infinitely powerful and totally good? Remember that infinite power involves not being bound by any laws of reality.

Everyone knows suffering is part of his plan. What that plan really is... is pretty much anyone's guess, but the plan is there!

... is what a christian's response might be to that question.

**Xox** · 01-27-2008 12:20 AM

Perfect...is it even possible?

**Sornaensis** · 01-27-2008 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Daeva

In the alien mind of a God, I'd reason that what we might view as an imperfection or a mistake makes perfect sense to him. Sort of like a Psychopath's logic. Everything make sense to him, but well..He's just plain fucking crazy the way everyone else see's it!

That may be true, but god seemed pretty damn human to me in the OT the NT and the Koran.

Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed

It's not a mistake if he meant to do it.

||
V

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Why would he create the imperfection that results in suffering if he is both infinitely powerful and totally good? Remember that infinite power involves not being bound by any laws of reality.

Originally Posted by Daeva

Good is subjective; what you view as good could be completely different from what 'God' views as good, unless you can claim to understand the 'mindset' of 'God'.

But he is benevolent to humans! So that means generally nice!

Originally Posted by Xox

Perfect...is it even possible?

No. That's my whole point.