http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KnGNOiFll4
I really like the ideas in this and I want to got some points of views together.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KnGNOiFll4
I really like the ideas in this and I want to got some points of views together.
I think that has a strong moral message, no matter what you believe. Great video.
I agree.
That has an AWESOME message, no matter who you are or what religion you are or type of views you have.
Great song/poem.
-patience
Thirded. It's rather eye opening. You see people constantly asking why God did this or that if he's so good, when alot the tribulations we are suffering from are our own fault. This is my new favorite song.
Not really. Most suffering comes from poverty, I don't see how someone can stop that. Again if god fed the starving people of the world then I would agree, or if he didn't cause people to act irrationally.Quote:
when alot the tribulations we are suffering from are our own fault.
I meant the fault of Mankind as a whole. It might not be your fault, but it's likely the fault of another person. 90% of the wealth in 10% of the population.
This message only applies to the semi-deluded, really.
Truly deluded individuals will not accept it, as it was written by 'scoob' and not 'god'. What does scoob know about what god thinks?
People who don't believe in a god (like me) see this is an almost humorously skewed piece. Humans are not in control of the world, and the world was not made for us. We are A PART of mother nature, just like ants and cows and apple trees; just like refrigerators, wrenches and automobiles. We will never "hurt" mother nature, we can only hurt ourselves as a species - and keeping in mind that we ARE mother nature, then it's natural for us to hurt ourselves anyways so we're not antagonizing nature after all. :lol:
Good rapping, anyways.
[QUOTE=wendylove;622957]Not really. Most suffering comes from poverty[QUOTE]
It said it very clearly "It was you that invented money, and the corrupt econonic systems."
That's dope.
WE are mother nature? O_o
I don't get that statement....
I thought mother nature was the wind, the earth, the water, and such forth. Things that NO ONE can control really.
I think I'm misinterpreting something here.
Probably.... I'm blond.
-patience
You have no idea how I pity you. Sincerely.Quote:
Originally Posted by thegnome54
But seeing how you didn't reply to my comment in some other similar thread, I'll ask here, keeping the above quote in mind...
Do you find comfort in being nothing more than a piece of flesh and bone?
More so, do you find comfort in being weak and allowing others or the world to bend you instead of shaping it?
I'm just trying to grasp why you have such a mindframe, pretty much the opposite of mine.
Why would you allow anyone or anything to stop you from your goals?
If you want something and the world is stopping you from getting it, why do you allow it to hinder you? Why do you refuse to see that being conscious self-aware beings gives us infinite potential?
I'm sorry gnome, but I don't see how we are a part of mother nature. There's something that sets us apart. You could call it free will, but there's more to it then that. Everything else works together harmoniously. We are the odd ones out.
This is stupid. We are human nothing more. Does that makes us just flesh and bones? yes. However, humans can reason, well some humans.Quote:
Do you find comfort in being nothing more than a piece of flesh and bone?
More so, do you find comfort in being weak and allowing others or the world to bend you instead of shaping it?
What this is stupid. Is thegnome crying in the corner right now? well no. You assume he has no goals, that he is weak, and hindered. Again, when has gnome ever said he has no goals.Quote:
I'm just trying to grasp why you have such a mindframe, pretty much the opposite of mine.
Why would you allow anyone or anything to stop you from your goals?
If you want something and the world is stopping you from getting it, why do you allow it to hinder you? Why do you refuse to see that being conscious self-aware beings gives us infinite potential?
Self awareness, is useless if you reject reality.
Science has shown free will is impossible. Again, if you look at quantum mechanics their is no free will. We are not the odd ones out, most of our skills are displayed in animals, dolphins have a language, apes can used tools and they have good memory. Humans just use it all together.Quote:
You could call it free will, but there's more to it then that. Everything else works together harmoniously. We are the odd ones out.
Again, what makes us human, well science does. Our society is science driven. Again, their is no science that says humans are the odd ones out, that we somehow broke the mold on what is natural.
Reality is what you make of it. You can do anything.
And I didn't say he has no goals. I said, and I quote, "Why would you allow anyone or anything to stop you from your goals?"
If someone you care for is dying due to an illness that can't be cured with medicine or any type of science...with that outlook, you will let them die because you allow the world to bend you.
Those that don't will put their want before their ability and bend the world to their needs, gain the ability they need to save those they care for, etc.
That being a good-natured goal, while someone ambitious to the point of utter greed and malice could also very well put aside "ability" and focus only on the "want" of attaining something priceless to them.
I totally agree. We are a product of nature and are therefore natural. Whether we have free will or not, or whether we can reason or not, make no difference whatsoever. We are a product of nature, and we are nature. Everything we make is natural.Quote:
Originally Posted by thegnome54
In my opinion (since I am a determinist), everything that exists and that will ever exist in the universe is nature.
Well I agree on god not existing (heh) but I think that video is liek a fairytale: a false story, but one that yet teaches your a few things. What's said on the video is pretty reasonable.
Kushna, there's more than enough evidence free will doesn't exist. It might apparently exist, but it's simpel to do the maths and say it doesn't.
Yes, we are a part of mother nature, and it doesn't mean we cannot harm nature by beign part of it - actually I think that's what's silly about humans destroying the environment: they are destroying themselves. Something similar to that would be cancer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed
I agree, it's dumb when people blame "god" for everything. We are able to know right from wrong. The world is a mess because of us...that simple. there is no "god did this", WE DID THIS ourselves. They take actions, but can't take the blame for themselves? cmon...we created the things we have today...not,um, god? people need to grow up and admit their own mistakes, and realise we are the ones doing this to ourselves.
False, there is such thing as free will, just not with all our rules and everything else. What's your def on freewill? you would not be writing this if freewill did not exist "i don't mean this in a paranormal way either, more a literal" We can do whatever we want, but most do within the rules of common sense..don't kill someone duhhh, i'm breaking my freewill to do it because i follow that rule.Quote:
Kushna, there's more than enough evidence free will doesn't exist. It might apparently exist, but it's simpel to do the maths and say it doesn't.
BTW no, i'm not stalking you since i reply to alot of your posts, i just disagree with some things you say. :P
Lol actually everything converged on me writing this. See determinism at wikipedia. It's a completely cohesive philosophical theory.
I don't see how there is no free will. I can reason and make my own decisions. I can act independantly of my emotions, whims and desires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromoh
You have the illusion of free will. You don't really make a decision http://youtube.com/watch?v=_VxQuPBX1_UQuote:
I don't see how there is no free will. I can reason and make my own decisions. I can act independantly of my emotions, whims and desires.
Also, I don't see how there is no free will, is a argument of ignorance. The point is from the video, we are govern by physical laws and they have no room for freedom. You either believe in quantum mechanics, where everything is probabillitic or Classical physics where everything is determined. Again, their is no freedom.
. . .
I was about to reply to you, Kushna, but wendy just made it.
Great video btw.
Of course not. It's terrifying. What's your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlock
What? How is abiding by the laws of physics being 'weak'? Do you just decide to float up off the earth's surface on some days?Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlock
If something is stopping me (like gravity) from a goal (like floating up off the earth with no propulsion systems), then I can't do anything about it. So I don't. What would you do? Wish the gravity would go away?Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlock
I can't 'see' that we have infinite potentials because it is not an obvious truth. It's much more likely a product of wishful thinking on the part of some pathetic hunks of flesh and bone. Like I said - why don't you just float in the face of gravity? Does your 'infinite potential' cover this?
The thing which sets us apart is our own pomposity and sense of superiority. We are quarks, atoms, elements, compounds - we're made of the same stuff as everything else in this world. There is no reason to set us apart from other animals which are clearly self-aware, like chimpanzees and dolphins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed
First, you don't know what I can or cannot do. Don't make assumptions of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by thegnome54
Second, to understand the essence of ultimate potential one needs to understand the difference between that very ultimate potential and physical sciences. Science in the modern day world allows for progress out of curiosity. Anything beyond the physical works on a completely different principle, the metaphysical, not the physical. Curiosity is never enough to achieve anything of true meaning.
And third, you can't soar from the ground and fly because you don't know how. As said above, we are conscious self-aware beings. That isn't a physical trait, it's a mental one. We have the infinite potential to learn. If you want to fly, you need to find out how, not cast it aside because it isn't public knowledge. And more so, you must not merely "find out" (curiosity isn't enough) but have a true purpose to figure out the path towards a certain goal and then nothing will stop you and that path will appear beneath your very feet.
You're right in saying that wishful thinking causes illusion. Hence all the various telekinesis sites and whatnot online, for example. They state things such as "focus on the object and move it with your mind"...they lack the quintessence: the world is constructive and requires mechanisms for anything to be achieved. Wishful thinking isn't a mechanism affecting the physical and thus is folly.
But it is incredibly unwise to throw aside the possibility of anything. Because anything is possible, because those with unique or great power (and thus great wisdom) aren't bent on the concept of mass media ("tell everyone and fast") and because in doing so you allow the world to overwhelm you instead of using your ambitions to shape it, you condescend yourself.
This sort of follows in what I see as- " one cannot manipulate what is seen as constructive subject and object by thinking from the point of view of being either subject or object". Toss aside such thinking and one then can then connect with what you call "ultimate potential".Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlock
The direct approach does not yield results, a measure of subtlety is required to make the connection. Fair assessment? Yes /No?
At least this is what I am finding myself...
I think I see where this is headed. Just like the belief that everything we see, touch, hear, taste and smell can be an illusion, so is freewill.Quote:
Originally Posted by wendylove
But as far as the individual is concerned, and for the sake of living your life, these things are real. Illusion or not, it is something you experience as a part of your daily life.
The teachings I identify with teach that we are in a way the elements themselves and that the physical body is just a form of manifestation of those elements.Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceMarie
How can one control what one percieves as seperate from themselves? Then again is control really necesary?
I appreciate these few words you put up here.! They have helped put something in perspective for me. Thank you !:)
From my experience with blondes, they stereotypcally may not understand what they see but they seem to see more simply and more clearly. There is an advantage to that you know...;)
Maybe it's the fact that I haven't slept for 35 hours but I find all that hard to grasp.Quote:
Originally Posted by NonDualistic
Would you mind elaborating some more?
We can't hurt nature, we can only hurt ourselves, but... we are nature and so by hurting ourselves we are hurting nature but somehow not antagonizing it? You sure come up with some convoluted bullshit sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by thegnome54
It's so true; it's amazing. I'm an atheist but the point is so true.
Ok, lets start here with what you said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlock
I am of the opinion that the physical can be affected by the non physical, but- not by continuing in the same thinking based on physical terms .Quote:
Second, to understand the essence of ultimate potential one needs to understand the difference between that very ultimate potential and physical sciences. Science in the modern day world allows for progress out of curiosity. Anything beyond the physical works on a completely different principle, the metaphysical, not the physical. Curiosity is never enough to achieve anything of true meaning.
Goes along with what I said aboveQuote:
And third, you can't soar from the ground and fly because you don't know how. As said above, we are conscious self-aware beings. That isn't a physical trait, it's a mental one. We have the infinite potential to learn. If you want to fly, you need to find out how, not cast it aside because it isn't public knowledge. And more so, you must not merely "find out" (curiosity isn't enough) but have a true purpose to figure out the path towards a certain goal and then nothing will stop you and that path will appear beneath your very feet.
Again, goes along with what I said. One cannot focus dierctly on the physical, thinking of such in the usual physical terms to affect a physical change through the non physical.Quote:
You're right in saying that wishful thinking causes illusion. Hence all the various telekinesis sites and whatnot online, for example. They state things such as "focus on the object and move it with your mind"...they lack the quintessence: the world is constructive and requires mechanisms for anything to be achieved. Wishful thinking isn't a mechanism affecting the physical and thus is folly.
Is that more helpful?
If so, Am I understanding you correctly?
Oh, aye, exactly.
GReat! I have been reading your comments on ultimate potential and such for many weeks thinking such was on the same page as I am but wasnt quite sure till now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlock
Question:
Where must the thinking be in order to realize said potential?
And I know words do no justice, but have you anything to offer at all?
Perhaps I should simplify this, so that you may understand ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqaria
If lions were to start over-killing in Africa, and the balance was upset, we would consider this a 'natural' occurrence. Why? Well, lions are natural, so whatever they do is natural. Right? We'll call this 'point A' - namely, whatever natural creatures do, is natural.
Anthills, bird's nests, and termite mounds are 'natural', right? This I will call 'point B' - anything a natural creature makes is also considered natural.
Finally, 'point C' is simply that humans are natural creatures. We're animals, after all.
Put it all together now - if you combine C and B, you see that everything we make is natural - refrigerators, wrenches, automobiles... all are a part of nature, just like bird's nests and anthills. If you combine A and C, you see that whatever we do is also natural - CO2 emissions, control of CO2 emissions, the Green movement, Industrialization, deforestation, conservational attempts - it's all 'natural' for us to do.
With all of that in mind, it's a bit ridiculous to claim that we are antagonizing nature. We can't destroy the environment unnaturally any more than an ant hill or a beaver's antics. When we 'hurt nature', we're hurting ourselves, because of C. Because of B, this hurting of ourselves is also a natural occurence.
Therefore, everything we do is natural, whether it be considered harmful to ourselves and others or not - and so we cannot possibly antagonize nature.
Hopefully that works better? :?
And to go right along with this then, it would make sense too that our individual personalities are also "natural" and the interactions between each personality whether judged good or bad by the onlooker are also "natural".Quote:
Originally Posted by thegnome54
Under these directives of nature, all is merely a big puppet show with nature pulling all the strings. We only think we pull our own strings.
Question: what is, if anything, outside of nature?
Yes, that's a rough approximation of causal determinism.Quote:
Originally Posted by NonDualistic
I don't think anything is. Everything which 'is' is natural.Quote:
Originally Posted by NonDualistic
New Question:Quote:
Originally Posted by thegnome54
If one comes to the point of recognizing that they do not pull their own strings, then is that awareness, or conscious recocgintion of "something else" pulling the strings, natural also?
The immediate urge is to say yes, but thinking on it I'm not so sure.
On the one hand you have the thing pulling the strings which is natural by our inquiry, but then on the other hand there is this entity doing the recognizing. Seeing what it believes itself to be being controlled like a puppet.
Do you see the dilema?