Agnosticism, the *Only* Logical Belief Today?

I swear, too many labels for something so freaking simple. Anyway, if that's the case, O'nus, I'm an atheist. I always thought at atheists said there wasn't one, but I guess those are just the oddballs of the group. *sigh* Crap, ANOTHER change in my system of belief.

I hate language, because any combination of words can be twisted into something else different than the original intention. "Firetruck" doesn't mean a truck that is used to combat fires by firefighters, it is a truck that is really on fire, and is used by firefighters to spread fires! After all, they fight FOR fire, don't they?[/rant]

Then I'm an Agnostic Theist. :P

We're rare?

There seems to be a dichotomy here - which definition is the right one?

Atheism:
A) The belief that there is no god
B) A lack of belief that there is a god

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Originally Posted by thegnome54

There seems to be a dichotomy here - which definition is the right one?

Atheism:
A) The belief that there is no god
B) A lack of belief that there is a god

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I would say it like this:

Atheism:
A) Does not have a reason to believe there is a God but is open to proof of God.

Agnosticism:
A) Does not believe we are capable knowing there is a God. (Which seems to be what atheists are more commonly blamed of believing).

This is as how I see it.

What do you think...?
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I would say it like this:

Atheism:
A) Does not have a reason to believe there is a God but is open to proof of God.

Agnosticism:
A) Does not believe we are capable knowing there is a God. (Which seems to be what atheists are more commonly blamed of believing).

This is as how I see it.

What do you think...?
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I disagree

The only way you can define atheist, theist and agnostics is this

Do you believe in god? tick yes, no or maybe

You have to define god, because that is a vague term. Also, on the atheist side, not believing in god would be like not believing in santa claus or unicorns. It not that they don't have a reason, it because it is obvious their is no god.

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Originally Posted by wendylove

I disagree

The only way you can define atheist, theist and agnostics is this

Do you believe in god? tick yes, no or maybe

You have to define god, because that is a vague term. Also, on the atheist side, not believing in god would be like not believing in santa claus or unicorns. It not that they don't have a reason, it because it is obvious their is no god.

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You are not giving room for those who believe that we are incapable of knowing whether or not there is God (or supernatural being that created us all) or giving room for those that give the possibility of a God, but do not have any reson to believe. You could say that the latter her is "maybe" but I would then call that atheism.
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You are not giving room for those who believe that we are incapable of knowing whether or not there is God (or supernatural being that created us all) or giving room for those that give the possibility of a God, but do not have any reson to believe. You could say that the latter her is "maybe" but I would then call that atheism.

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Science is the nail in the coffin for religion. Believing in something and not believing in something is two different things, their not opposite. Again, I don't believe in unicorns. It stupid to say lets allow the fact a unicorn might exsist.
Not really I would define agnostics as sitting on the fence and not making their mind up.

Alright, to what I've always regarded, it is like the following:

Atheist:
*belief that there is no god (strong atheism)
*lack of belief in a god (moderate atheism, or agnostic atheism)

Agnosticism
*belief that it is impossible to know if there is a god

Theism
*lack of belief in any particular god (moderate theism, or agnostic theism)
*belief in a god (strong theism)

and I do not think agnosticism is sitting on the fence. sitting on the fence is sitting on the fence. agnosticism is agnosticism :D

So I guess that's it. Opinions?

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Atheist:
*belief that there is no god (strong atheism)
*lack of belief in a god (moderate atheism, or agnostic atheism)

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Again, can you strongly not believe in unicorns?

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Agnosticism
*belief that it is impossible to know if there is a god

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Sitting on the fence.

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Theism
*lack of belief in any particular god (moderate theism, or agnostic theism)
*belief in a god (strong theism)

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Can strongly believe in unicorns? I would say yes.

I would say atheism is not about belief. Theism is about belife. Again, a atheist follows the scientific method, you know where is the evidence and to only believe something if it has evidence.

I will refer to the dictionary of philosophy by Simon Blackburn.

Atheism:
"Either the lack of belief that there exists a God, or the belief that there exists none. Sometimes thought itself to be more dogmatic than mere agnosticism, although atheists retort that everyone is an atheist about most Gods, so they merely advance one step further."

Agnosticism:
"The view that some proposition is not known, and perhaps can not be know to be true or false. The term is particularly applied to theological doctrines."

Theism:
"Belief in the existance of a God. Theism is also a morbid condition brought on by excessive tea-drinking, but this is a different sense of the word, or an instance of homonymy."

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I will refer to the dictionary of philosophy by Simon Blackburn.

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Simon Blackburn is a idiot.

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Atheism:
"Either the lack of belief that there exists a God, or the belief that there exists none. Sometimes thought itself to be more dogmatic than mere agnosticism, although atheists retort that everyone is an atheist about most Gods, so they merely advance one step further."

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Again, belife is a stupid word to describe atheism. Are we now defining stuff we don't believe and then calling that a name. Again, I don't believe in unicorns what does that make me? a noiconist.

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Agnosticism:
"The view that some proposition is not known, and perhaps can not be know to be true or false. The term is particularly applied to theological doctrines."

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This is a better

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Theism:
"Belief in the existance of a God.

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This is better

You can't say atheism is a belife, as it is not. Unless, we call everything we don't believe a belife then you can't use belife. If atheism is opposite to theism, then one most not be a belife.

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Originally Posted by wendylove

Simon Blackburn is a idiot.

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Perhaps if you had a justification for this, I might regard it as something more than mere opinionated banter.

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Again, belife is a stupid word to describe atheism. Are we now defining stuff we don't believe and then calling that a name. Again, I don't believe in unicorns what does that make me? a noiconist.

This is a better

This is better

You can't say atheism is a belife, as it is not. Unless, we call everything we don't believe a belife then you can't use belife. If atheism is opposite to theism, then one most not be a belife.

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Yawn. You really want to get into semantics?

I believe I am using a keyboard right now. Oops, should I have used a different word? Does it matter? The idea is how it is being used within its context, right? Do not spend too much time on the semantics of the contextual description of the word.

As an atheist, I do not go around saying, "I hold my view of the world (rather than saying belief) to be that there is a possibility of a God or supernatural entities, but I require empirical evidence to believe such. etc."

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i am okay with being agnostic for now.


...or as Stephen Colbert calls them, Atheists without balls :roll:

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Originally Posted by Matt5678

i am okay with being agnostic for now.


.........or as Stephen Colbert calls them, Atheists without balls :roll:

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Yup.

Consider:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,31...ichard-Dawkins

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Yawn. You really want to get into semantics?

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Yeah, since precise word don't matter. Like in psychology what does conformity actually mean, we should just call it obediance, since their kind of the same. You know who care about semantics anyway?

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I believe I am using a keyboard right now. Oops, should I have used a different word? Does it matter? The idea is how it is being used within its context, right? Do not spend too much time on the semantics of the contextual description of the word.

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Yes it does. First of all if you said it is scientifically proven I am using the keyboard then that be different then believing. Since, you could be lying, however if you where then science would show it.

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As an atheist, I do not go around saying, "I hold my view of the world (rather than saying belief) to be that there is a possibility of a God or supernatural entities, but I require empirical evidence to believe such. etc."

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Again, if you had empirical evidence then it wouldn't be a belife. You would say it is fact that or that science shows. You have to have a belife to believe in god, since you would be making a claim, unless that claims is scientific or not a claim then it can't get passed belife. Atheism is not a belife since it not making any claim, it just saying god does not exsist.

Unless you want atheist to prove the negative. Which, would actually contradict your thread on how you can't prove a negative.

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Originally Posted by wendylove

Yeah, since precise word don't matter. Like in psychology what does conformity actually mean, we should just call it obediance, since their kind of the same. You know who care about semantics anyway?

Yes it does. First of all if you said it is scientifically proven I am using the keyboard then that be different then believing. Since, you could be lying, however if you where then science would show it.

Again, if you had empirical evidence then it wouldn't be a belife. You would say it is fact that or that science shows. You have to have a belife to believe in god, since you would be making a claim, unless that claims is scientific or not a claim then it can't get passed belife. Atheism is not a belife since it not making any claim, it just saying god does not exsist.

Unless you want atheist to prove the negative. Which, would actually contradict your thread on how you can't prove a negative.

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Yeah, I agree with you. I just use the word "belief" for the sake of brevity. I cannot think of another word that is short to use when I tell people what I "believe". I blame this on a predominant theistic society which presumes you "believe" in something. Thus, I simply say I "believe" in Atheism. However, I am willing to divulge into how it is not a belief, nay, relies on empiricism.

If you know a better word, I am more than willing to know it. However, I think it is really the result of presumptious interrogation. Don't you?

Edit: Like being asked, "So how long have you been gay?" it prepositions you to be gay before you can give a straight (mind the pun) answer. "What belief do you have?" is pre-prepositional.
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Yeah, I agree with you. I just use the word "belief" for the sake of brevity. I cannot think of another word that is short to use when I tell people what I "believe". I blame this on a predominant theistic society which presumes you "believe" in something. Thus, I simply say I "believe" in Atheism. However, I am willing to divulge into how it is not a belief, nay, relies on empiricism.

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I guess it the problem with negative statements. It kind of like when people say isn't evolution just a theory. A scientific theory is semantically different then a theory, which can be misleading. I guess the only thing you can really say is that their is evidence for god.

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If you know a better word, I am more than willing to know it. However, I think it is really the result of presumptious interrogation. Don't you?

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Yeah, but I would define the belife in atheism as the thought that their is no god. And theism as the belife their is a god and agnostic as the belife we will never know if their is a god.

Since, you can think about something without believing it. However, if you fore something like unicorns exsisting then that would be belife.

wendylove, I don't get you.

I mean, it's right to say that atheism is not a religion. Buy why should atheism not be a belief? After all, you believe god doesn't exist, is that it.


And yes, you can strongly believe there is no god. You can make it a part of your life and advocate it (atheism heh). But you may also not give shit about any god, and not bother much about "disbelieving" it. (weak atheism or agnostic atheism)

So it's more or less like this:

atheism - a person that gets into discussions, advocating there is no god
agnostic atheism - a person that doesn't bother about believing a god/chooses to believe none
agnosticism - a person that believes it is impossible to know if a god exists (which makes more sense than it appears, if you are into philosophy)
agnostic theism - a person that believes a god, but doesn't choose any particular religion (e.g. sincretic religion)
theism - a person that believes the god advocated by a religion (e.g. a regular christian)

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And btw wendylove, about your sig. Planets mightnot reproduce the way we think of reproduction, but they do. Just liek starts, for example. A star will most likely die away and not reproduce, but don't forget they are born from star "nests", which are resulting of other stars' deaths. So, yes they do reproduce.

LOL completely out of topic, but I just had to say it. Maybe we can create a thread for this.

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Originally Posted by Kromoh

And yes, you can strongly believe there is no god. You can make it a part of your life and advocate it (atheism heh). But you may also not give shit about any god, and not bother much about "disbelieving" it. (weak atheism or agnostic atheism)

So it's more or less like this:

atheism - a person that gets into discussions, advocating there is no god
agnostic atheism - a person that doesn't bother about believing a god/chooses to believe none
agnosticism - a person that believes it is impossible to know if a god exists (which makes more sense than it appears, if you are into philosophy)
agnostic theism - a person that believes a god, but doesn't choose any particular religion (e.g. sincretic religion)
theism - a person that believes the god advocated by a religion (e.g. a regular christian)

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Where would I fall then?

I believe in empirical matters; those of which can be systemically observed via empiricism.

I have no reason to believe there is a God, thus, I do not believe in one.

However, this is misleading. Let me represent this better:

- If there is/was a God, we would have evidence for God.
- There is no evidence for a God.
- Thus, there is no God.

Obviously the matters of the second premise are debatable, but I have yet to find a reason to believe otherwise. Thus, I do not think God exists. This does not mean that I zealously pontificate that there is no God no matter what anyone says.

What do you think...?
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Originally Posted by O'nus

Consider:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,31...ichard-Dawkins

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ok....

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Originally Posted by Matt5678

ok....

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Do you feel you can relate to anything within the link..? That is why I provided it.

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Originally Posted by O'nus

Do you feel you can relate to anything within the link..? That is why I provided it.

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are you implying that the only reason i posted a joke was because i am uncomfortable with my agnosticism?

Not really, that was just a joke I got a chuckle out of. :)

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Originally Posted by Matt5678

are you implying that the only reason i posted a joke was because i am uncomfortable with my agnosticism?

Not really, that was just a joke I got a chuckle out of. :)

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Oh... my bad..

lol

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O'nus, I really think you (and me) classify as atheists.

But it really depends. Agnostic atheism is like someone that doesn't believe because he doesn't care about religion. Atheism is like someone that doesn't believe, but care about religion (discussing it etc).
Also with agnostic theism, which is when someoen believes, but not sure of what (e.g. believes in the christian god but believes in spirits as well) And theism is sticking to one religion.

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Originally Posted by Kromoh

But it really depends. Agnostic atheism is like someone that doesn't believe because he doesn't care about religion. Atheism is like someone that doesn't believe, but care about religion (discussing it etc).
Also with agnostic theism, which is when someoen believes, but not sure of what (e.g. believes in the christian god but believes in spirits as well) And theism is sticking to one religion.

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What do you mean when you say "doesn't care about religion"? What does care, in this context, mean?

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