Declaration of Independence, a list of grievances

I apologize to all those I am about to offend, but it is time we put an end to tyranny.

We have an idea today, this is to start our own declaration of indepenence. It shall be in similar context as the United States declaration.http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/declare.htm

Here, today, November 17th, 2007, we are starting a movement, we will shout it out anywhere we have to, its time this stops.

But before we do that, I invite others to help along the way. Regardless of which religion is true (or the more likely event, which is not true) it is for a fact certain, life will be far better once religion is gone from the face of the Earth.





When for an extended amount of time it is shown that something divides the people, and also is obvious that there is no necessary reason to keep such a force, those who see this injustice should speak out and destroy whatever remnants of travesty which should occur. I speak now what is undeniable. There is no reason for the ruling so many find themselves under. It is true too that those under ruling try to change what they find appalling under this ruling, but keep what is of use to them in their own form of tyranny in which they find comfort in believing it is also the one true way to act. It is neither by dictator’s force, nor by threats of violence such as to become a terrorist that we fight, as would the entity we should raise against use, but by peace and logic to gain majority. I submit to you, humane people of Earth, truth.

It has controlled many different sects, under many different names, and not permitting change in its hypocrisy.
It has forbidden any of those who wish to save all, if not under one of the same house.
It has warped the minds of the young into horrible acts, which they deem necessary under its ruling.
It has convinced all that whatever good comes is by its grace, but evils by its wisdom, when it is far too true we know that evil is never done by a wise being.
It has obstructed that in which we live, by convincing time is not worth being spent, for it is the afterlife that is of importance, which is also shown no proof of existing.
It has convinced many to hate for no apparent reason.
It is under the ruling of many, and has no single voice, but still under the shambling of a great many, laws are made and subjugate humans to.
It has encouraged ignorance in biology, physics, chemistry, and astronomy, and has indoctrinated these same ignorances into children

Now anyone who would like to help fill in the list of grievances be my guest, a conclusion shall be written upon completion of grievances.

It has encouraged ignorance in biology, physics, chemistry, and astronomy, and has indoctrinated these same ignorances into children

are we talking about all religion here or just fundamentalism?

It makes atheists angry because everyone else thinks they're idiots.:P

Just kidding:D (kinda). Every great thing has its downfalls. Some of your points are valid but the argument should be more against forced religion, not religion in general. Everyone should look at the facts and decide for themselves. If we get rid of religion in the world there would be consequences. People would have nothing to go to when a friend dies or when things don't go their way. Also there would be more immorality, because most people will do what is best for them if they know there are no consequences (well most of us already do).

Basically what I am saying is extreme forced religions=sometimes bad, belief in a god=not inherently bad.

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Originally Posted by ThePhobiaViewed

Basically what I am saying is extreme forced religions=sometimes bad, belief in a god=not inherently bad.

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put very well. :)

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Originally Posted by ThePhobiaViewed

It makes atheists angry because everyone else thinks they're idiots.:P

Just kidding:D (kinda). Every great thing has its downfalls. Some of your points are valid but the argument should be more against forced religion, not religion in general. Everyone should look at the facts and decide for themselves. If we get rid of religion in the world there would be consequences. People would have nothing to go to when a friend dies or when things don't go their way. Also there would be more immorality, because most people will do what is best for them if they know there are no consequences (well most of us already do).

Basically what I am saying is extreme forced religions=sometimes bad, belief in a god=not inherently bad.

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Silly, countries that are nationally atheistic have already proven to have less crime =)

And I dare say false hope is worse than no hope...

still religion is the largest source of division among the world, and each of them think they are correct...so to them they think oh well its ok, i'm right, I have the right to be a source of division, it's everyone else who should stop bickering...blah blah blah.

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Originally Posted by Matt5678

are we talking about all religion here or just fundamentalism?

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all religion =)

I don't want to say we should be athiests...although I guess I am...i'm saying we should just push religion out of the window completely. Like our past ancestors who have pushed zeus, thor, odin, and every other crazy god out of the window, we should push every other religion too. I mean, we have been better off not believing in all the other gods we've gotten rid of...so you realize it only makes sense that less gods = better world.

Religion creates more problems than it solves.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

Religion creates more problems than it solves.

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it doesnt have to......

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Originally Posted by Matt5678

it doesnt have to......

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? If everyone were the same religion, and that religion wasn't hypocritical and did not act as a terrorist by threatening eternal punishment for being "evil", and did not have rules over unimportant things that are "bad" by its standards but if you think about it logically you realize it is of no consequence.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

? If everyone were the same religion, and that religion wasn't hypocritical and did not act as a terrorist by threatening eternal punishment for being "evil", and did not have rules over unimportant things that are "bad" by its standards but if you think about it logically you realize it is of no consequence.

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im saying if religion only promoted love and peace among human beings than i dont think it would need consequences to stop people from committing crimes.

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Originally Posted by Matt5678

im saying if religion only promoted love and peace among human beings than i dont think it would need consequences to stop people from committing crimes.

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Well its a shame that that doesn't happen though, since we all have evidence that religion tries to promote what your speaking of, while at the same time shuns any who do not follow exactly to its according of doctrine. Not even that they shun those not of the religion, but those who are odd, or different from its decided rules. It thus breeds hate in those who follow any religious doctrine. Non consequental crap is the fundamental root of all religion.

I can't see it happening.

Your examples of throwing out of thor, Odin, Zeus etc were all actually just replaced by another religion.

The problem is there is no way you can stop what is in human nature.

People want there to be a higher power. This want is inherent, and no amount of nurture can get rid of it; so whatever happens religion will pop up all over the place. If we're at the state where we should have to quell these as they pop up.. I don't know, it sounds vaguely tyrannical itself.

I'm an atheist, btw (y)

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Originally Posted by ThePhobiaViewed

Also there would be more immorality, because most people will do what is best for them if they know there are no consequences (well most of us already do).

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As if religious people are less immoral. It seems to me to be an direct correlation (more religious = more immoral.) People who tend to be immoral, tend to be religious, because they are trying to compensate. Hence so many priests who are child-molesters. Religion doesn't seem to help them a lot.

The consequences of immorality are present in the legal system.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

As if religious people are less immoral. It seems to me to be an direct correlation (more religious = more immoral.) People who tend to be immoral, tend to be religious, because they are trying to compensate. Hence so many priests who are child-molesters. Religion doesn't seem to help them a lot.

The consequences of immorality are present in the legal system.

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It is soo hard to make any opposing discussion without being accused of generalizing.
But at that risk; Why do so many people become born again Christians? For their unrighteous behavior that they now can find repentance.
Many use religion because they know that they are safeguarded from the mistakes that we will ALL make, and make often.

Contrary to popular belief from religious people, people with out faith do not run about with a anarchist's point of view. With no care OF the world.
To the contrary, I find that they often use logic to base their decisions. I.E. -This is a world I have to live in so... with

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Originally Posted by Sandform

Well its a shame that that doesn't happen though, since we all have evidence that religion tries to promote what your speaking of, while at the same time shuns any who do not follow exactly to its according of doctrine. Not even that they shun those not of the religion, but those who are odd, or different from its decided rules. It thus breeds hate in those who follow any religious doctrine. Non consequental crap is the fundamental root of all religion.

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oh come on, your telling me that there is not a single priest or a single Christian or jew or Muslim who loves their neighbor and tries to help people regardless of what name they call god..if any.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

As if religious people are less immoral. It seems to me to be an direct correlation (more religious = more immoral.) People who tend to be immoral, tend to be religious, because they are trying to compensate. Hence so many priests who are child-molesters. Religion doesn't seem to help them a lot.

The consequences of immorality are present in the legal system.

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I know that alot of religious people (or probably more the ones who claim to be) do fall under what you mentioned. I probably could have worded my statement better. I added the "(well most of us already do)" to show that religious people often don't act it.

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Originally Posted by Sandform http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...s/viewpost.gif
Well its a shame that that doesn't happen though, since we all have evidence that religion tries to promote what your speaking of, while at the same time shuns any who do not follow exactly to its according of doctrine. Not even that they shun those not of the religion, but those who are odd, or different from its decided rules. It thus breeds hate in those who follow any religious doctrine. Non consequental crap is the fundamental root of all religion.

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Originally Posted by Matt5678

oh come on, your telling me that there is not a single priest or a single Christian or jew or Muslim who loves their neighbor and tries to help people regardless of what name they call god..if any.

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Yaa, I am sure he meant, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them! :roll:

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It is soo hard to make any opposing discussion without being accused of generalizing.
But at that risk; Why do so many people become born again Christians? For their unrighteous behavior that they now can find repentance.
Many use religion because they know that they are safeguarded from the mistakes that we will ALL make, and make often.

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Hate may be a strong word. But what do religious people consider gay people for example? Or "odd or different form the decided rule?"
They would let the devil or death have them. That seems pretty hateful, even if they do not want to admit it. OR even if they shun them and let the chips fall where they may, the same result. They just don't have to feel the guilt then.

I find that no human should be the object of direct hate. Hitler for example, he was the cause of HORRIBLE things, but, who here would send him to an eternal torture? And if you did say, for example, that he did deserve such a place, well YOU are only human, YOU are not perfect, YOU are capable of flaw...however supposedly God is not imperfect nor capable of flaw, therefor it stands to reason that the ONLY person who anyone can ever truelybe capable of evil, since all humans are imperfect, is God himself...but since I see no evidence of any Gods or gods, then I see no evidence of true evil, merely ignorance.

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oh come on, your telling me that there is not a single priest or a single Christian or jew or Muslim who loves their neighbor and tries to help people regardless of what name they call god..if any.

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If they do, it is because they have risen ABOVE their religion. All religion promotes hate just as much, if not more than, kindness. By prying on peoples prejudices, and fears, and HOPES, religion has gained power amongst the masses.

What more the ultimate punishment than hell? What more the ultimate bribe than heaven? Where in life have we ever exhibited such things to be true? There is no where that we have seen the good be given ONLY good things, and the evil be given ONLY evil things, quite the contrary I would believe.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

Well its a shame that that doesn't happen though, since we all have evidence that religion tries to promote what your speaking of, while at the same time shuns any who do not follow exactly to its according of doctrine. Not even that they shun those not of the religion, but those who are odd, or different from its decided rules. It thus breeds hate in those who follow any religious doctrine. Non consequental crap is the fundamental root of all religion.

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Such does seem to be quite a problem and quite a distraction form the core teachings present in most all "religions".

What are those core teachings?

What is it tha the follower of Advaita knows?

What is it that the practitioner of Dzogchen knows?

What is it that the follower of Gnosis knows?

What is it that the Sufi knows?

What is it that the follower of the Kaballah knows?

What is it that the follower of the Tao knows?

Do you know?

The problem with doing away with religion is that you end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Such does seem to be quite a problem and quite a distraction form the core teachings present in most all "religions".

What are those core teachings?

What is it tha the follower of Advaita knows?

What is it that the practitioner of Dzogchen knows?

What is it that the follower of Gnosis knows?

What is it that the Sufi knows?

What is it that the follower of the Kaballah knows?

What is it that the follower of the Tao knows?

Do you know?

The problem with doing away with religion is that you end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

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It becomes a problem when philosophy is used in place of religion. Gnosis. I had never heard that term before, and I've only briefly been introduced to the others. Is it not merely knowing that spirituality exists? I would imagine since it seems to share spelling with agnostic that would be the basis of agnosticism? I would like to know more... But as far as I have seen, these religions, aside from having silly rituals, are more philosophical than religious.

But still, regardless, it stagnates society when you cease to look for evidence of answers. Which is what religion will do, no matter which religion. It is only when you question the validity of the answers that have been provided, where they come from, and why they were said, do you find true answers. Why ask how we got here if religion will give you answers from no where? Why ask what is the meaning of life if the religion will tell you? Why live if religion tells you your purpose? Religion is a flawed system.

I will stand by my statement that nonconsequential crap is the root of all religious practice.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

It becomes a problem when philosophy is used in place of religion. Gnosis. I had never heard that term before, and I've only briefly been introduced to the others. Is it not merely knowing that spirituality exists? I would imagine since it seems to share spelling with agnostic that would be the basis of agnosticism? I would like to know more... But as far as I have seen, these religions, aside from having silly rituals, are more philosophical than religious.

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Gnosis is out of early Christianity. Gnosis has nothing to do with agnosticism as far as I am aware of.

All of the above are buried within their respective "religions". The religions are a man made covering over these teachings, a covering relating to egotism.

All of the above embody the teachings of Non-Dualism or the Oneness of all that is.

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But still, regardless, it stagnates society when you cease to look for evidence of answers. Which is what religion will do, no matter which religion. It is only when you question the validity of the answers that have been provided, where they come from, and why they were said, do you find true answers. Why ask how we got here if religion will give you answers from no where? Why ask what is the meaning of life if the religion will tell you? Why live if religion tells you your purpose? Religion is a flawed system.

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There is little to argue with on these points. Religion is flawed., flawed by duality and the egotism that goes with it. However, flawed that it is it does posess a certain necesity. So long as dualistic perception exists religion must exist in one manner or another for those who are locked into the duality. Religion does provide basic laws and morals necesary for life as such, as well as being the covering for the teachings of non-duality buried within.

The object is not to attack religion, but to simply let go of it and move on into the teachings at the heart of it, covered and buried within.

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I will stand by my statement that nonconsequential crap is the root of all religious practice.

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You did not say "practice" before. This time you did. No argument here as so worded. I would say as to the root of religion itself, it would be the teachings of Non-duality, which have been lost and forgotten by the majority of the followers of all these religions in favor of the "practices" that have become the standard of the day.

So basically, you're all for religious persecution; but unlike those who would persecute many religions but condone one, you want to top them all and persecute everyone? I can't exactly call you a Nazi because Hitler at least allowed some people to practice their religion. You've managed to out do the Nazis with your gross generalizations and blanket accusations. Good job.

The worst part of this whole charade is you most likely haven't actually lived through any real religious persecution anyway. You're a citizen of the U.S. so you have no fear of the government putting you to death because of your beliefs (or lack thereof). Your country hasn't been torn apart by religious wars, you haven't been been branded and ostricized or humilitiated in public. You sound like an angry little kid who hasn't found God and therefore hates anyone who has.

Why is it that you want the world to be a bland homogenous soup, in which every individual is indistinquishable from the next?

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Why is it that you want the world to be a bland homogenous soup, in which every individual is indistinquishable from the next?

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A world without religion would not be a bland homogenous soup. Freeing people from ignorance and superstition is a good thing. Freedom from religion should be a right.

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

So basically, you're all for religious persecution; but unlike those who would persecute many religions but condone one, you want to top them all and persecute everyone? I can't exactly call you a Nazi because Hitler at least allowed some people to practice their religion. You've managed to out do the Nazis with your gross generalizations and blanket accusations. Good job.

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No because I'm not saying FORCE religion out, I'm saying appeal to peoples logic until everyone finally realizes that religion is not necessary, regardless of if any religion is true, religion is an unnecessary evil, and diverts attention from doing things of actual good in the world. Ironic though that may seem.

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

The worst part of this whole charade is you most likely haven't actually lived through any real religious persecution anyway. You're a citizen of the U.S. so you have no fear of the government putting you to death because of your beliefs (or lack thereof). Your country hasn't been torn apart by religious wars, you haven't been been branded and ostricized or humilitiated in public. You sound like an angry little kid who hasn't found God and therefore hates anyone who has.

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Ok Xaqaria, I've lost the respect I used to hold for you. I used to at least appreciate your words when you would speak them, because they at least had some thought behind them. Mostly I'm speaking of your create your own god theories. But now I'm done. Don't you dare presume to know what I have been through. You don't even have a clue how many religious zealots exist in this world. I've been abused by these little bastards physically and verbally so don't bother trying to sell what your saying to anyone.
Of course, I will concede, I cannot say that it is the fact that I am an atheist alone that caused this, there are many other things that trigger religious nuts.

Yes I was born in the U.S. and am therefor lucky enough not to be in some hell hole where the government is run by a theocracy in which people are not persecuted for worshiping a god, but rather in not worshipping the "right" god. Am I sorry I was lucky? Not unless it would have meant someone else could be free of tyranny instead of me.

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Why is it that you want the world to be a bland homogenous soup, in which every individual is indistinquishable from the next?

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No, I want ignorance to disappear. Like I have said, regardless of if (any) religion is true, it is unnecessary and only diverts attention from more pressing matters. If we took away religion and replaced it with lets say...care for the elderly we would have billions of dollars and man power to increase the quality of life for those who are soon to die. Thats just one example.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

No because I'm not saying FORCE religion out, I'm saying appeal to peoples logic until everyone finally realizes that religion is not necessary, regardless of if any religion is true, religion is an unnecessary evil, and diverts attention from doing things of actual good in the world. Ironic though that may seem.

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i think i am beginning to understand your point (correct me if im wrong) you think people can still believe in god and have a personal spiritual opinion, but religious institutions create evil. and if this is your point i can agree with you. take the Vatican for instance. in the middle ages the Roman catholic church had its hands in everything. From the way kings ruled to the way people thought. After the Black Death the Roman Catholic Church lost power. This loss of authority is probably what sparked the Italian Renaissance. One of the greatest periods of art and learning in the history of the world, so it is simple to see that most religious authoritarian institutions are harmful to the growth of society and when they are gone the beauty of human expression is allowed to shine through.

atleast, this is what i am getting from your post

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Originally Posted by Matt5678

i think i am beginning to understand your point (correct me if im wrong) you think people can still believe in god and have a personal spiritual opinion, but religious institutions create evil. and if this is your point i can agree with you. take the Vatican for instance. in the middle ages the Roman catholic church had its hands in everything. From the way kings ruled to the way people thought. After the Black Death the Roman Catholic Church lost power. This loss of authority is probably what sparked the Italian Renaissance. One of the greatest periods of art and learning in the history of the world, so it is simple to see that most religious authoritarian institutions are harmful to the growth of society and when they are gone the beauty of human expression is allowed to shine through.

atleast, this is what i am getting from your post

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I think you kind of understand what I'm saying. I don't care if you believe in God, or gods, or whatever the hell you want to believe in, but I want people to stop basing their lives on religious bull shit. It is unnecessary, and it serves no point whatsoever. Of course as an atheist I would prefer if people didn't believe in God's or god's thus that is reflected in my opinions, but the only thing I think that must be done is to do away with basing the way you live your life on rules that leave no room for change. And as a lazy person, the only thing I care about is what must be done =P.

I believe somewhere on these forums another person posted a quote from the teachings of Bhudda. I'm paraphrasing but...

'trust nothing that is said, indeed even if I have said it, if it does not coincide with what you believe'

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Originally Posted by Sandform

Silly, countries that are nationally atheistic have already proven to have less crime =)

And I dare say false hope is worse than no hope...

still religion is the largest source of division among the world, and each of them think they are correct...so to them they think oh well its ok, i'm right, I have the right to be a source of division, it's everyone else who should stop bickering...blah blah blah.

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You may not realize it but that is exactly what you atheists are doing here, saying stop the bickering. You THINK your right, as you can't disprove god. Atheism works like a religion, You attract followers, you denounce other beliefs, and you claim to have the right answers. I know you may not see it this way but Atheism is a godless religion founded in science.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

You may not realize it but that is exactly what you atheists are doing here, saying stop the bickering. You THINK your right, as you can't disprove god. Atheism works like a religion, You attract followers, you denounce other beliefs, and you claim to have the right answers. I know you may not see it this way but Atheism is a godless religion founded in science.

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I'm an atheist merely because I don't believe in a God.

This in no way effects my way of living. I don't try to attract followers.


The reason I am an atheist is simply because I believe what is rational and in front of me.



Religions generally require faith of some sort.
Atheism doesn't.It merely requires logical rational thinking.

Rational reasoning; is by no means a religion. It's just true, I'm afraid.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

You may not realize it but that is exactly what you atheists are doing here, saying stop the bickering. You THINK your right, as you can't disprove god. Atheism works like a religion, You attract followers, you denounce other beliefs, and you claim to have the right answers. I know you may not see it this way but Atheism is a godless religion founded in science.

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That's not true at all, I offer no answers, I do the opposite, I denounce answers. Saying that I am doing something does not make it so. I declare that I do not know everything. Human beings, with all we have learned so far, are still in the dark ages compared to what there is to know in the universe. Your only trying to make me sound like you so that you can nit pick me about it, which is rather poetic irony if you think about it. One thing beyond all things is true, regardless of anything else, compassion is the important force in human society, it is why we have progressed as a society, and it is why we continue to grow, not some spiritual bull shit. That and along with just being genetically more capable than other animals. I am simple saying that it is better to say "I don't know" than it is to say "I've been taught" when they can not provide evidence of any kind that points to the answers that one might give. The world would be better off without religion for the reason that once we get rid of the foolish idea of the "afterlife" and some "wrath" for evil deeds, we can start studying the universe without ignorance, and we can benefit society without having to worry about "ethics" that are based off of some "benevolent" being rather than logic and compassion.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

I know you may not see it this way but Atheism is a godless religion founded in science.

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Not that again. You don't know the definition of the word "religion". Is not believing in Santa Claus a religion? No. Atheism is the same way.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

That's not true at all, I offer no answers, I do the opposite, I denounce answers. Saying that I am doing something does not make it so. I declare that I do not know everything. Human beings, with all we have learned so far, are still in the dark ages compared to what there is to know in the universe. Your only trying to make me sound like you so that you can nit pick me about it, which is rather poetic irony if you think about it. One thing beyond all things is true, regardless of anything else, compassion is the important force in human society, it is why we have progressed as a society, and it is why we continue to grow, not some spiritual bull shit. That and along with just being genetically more capable than other animals. I am simple saying that it is better to say "I don't know" than it is to say "I've been taught" when they can not provide evidence of any kind that points to the answers that one might give. The world would be better off without religion for the reason that once we get rid of the foolish idea of the "afterlife" and some "wrath" for evil deeds, we can start studying the universe without ignorance, and we can benefit society without having to worry about "ethics" that are based off of some "benevolent" being rather than logic and compassion.

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As much as you deny it, he is right. Your beliefs are based off of what you have been taught just like everybody else. How much of science have you actually witnessed for yourself and how much scientific evidence do you take on faith because someone with a degree has said it is the truth? What you don't seem to realize is, even scientific explanations of the world are based on personal interpretations of the evidence. You may say "I don't know" and feel self righteous because of that, but there are beliefs that you hold and they are based mostly on what you have been told whether you admit it or not. Because you have been told one thing and not another does not make you any better or worse than anybody else.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Not that again. You don't know the definition of the word "religion". Is not believing in Santa Claus a religion? No. Atheism is the same way.

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It is a belief system. It is a world view. It is an assumption of the truth that is based largely on speculation. In these ways it is similar to religion. Science is put forth as the ultimate truth instead of a metaphysical entity; that is the only difference.

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

I'm an atheist merely because I don't believe in a God.

This in no way effects my way of living. I don't try to attract followers.


The reason I am an atheist is simply because I believe what is rational and in front of me.



Religions generally require faith of some sort.
Atheism doesn't.It merely requires logical rational thinking.

Rational reasoning; is by no means a religion. It's just true, I'm afraid.

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Atheism is similar to religion in that its followers believe they are closer to the truth than all others. Why is it that your beliefs are based in rational truth and mine are not? What research have you done to be so convinced that you are more knowledgable than I am about the inner workings of reality? I have studied physics, chemistry, biology, and philosophy and these things have lead me to a different conclusion than you. It is likely that I have followed a route that is more logical and based more on empirical evidence than you have and yet you say I am irrational because our beliefs are different. The fault that most find in religion is intolerance and the inability to identify with other people's beliefs. This is something that you are guilty of also.

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

It is an assumption of the truth that is based largely on speculation. In these ways it is similar to religion.

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No it's not. It's the denial that the liklihood of a bunch of made up stuff is true.

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Atheism is similar to religion in that its followers believe they are closer to the truth than all others. Why is it that your beliefs are based in rational truth and mine are not?

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Because it's not just a bunch of made up stuff.