Thread: It's beginning to look a lot like Chris---...uuh...

I honestly don't mind the commercialisation of Christmas so much. I'm Christian, and I'm not suggesting the religious side is ever forgotten, but I think Christmas has become a holiday in its own right. It has many entirely non-religious traditions attached nowadays, that I enjoy just as much as the religious ones (and I'm not just talking about presents ).

I think Christmas is now as much a holiday for the Western culture as the Christian Church. If people belive in God, they can appreciate it for the religious reasons. If people don't, they can still appreciate the other traditions now attached. I don't think anyone suffers, to be honest. If you're Christian, you'll honour the religious message behind Christmas no matter how much is attached to the holiday.

Meh, my thoughts are losing coherence. I might try again later.

I am an Agnostic Athiest as is most of my family. We do indeed celebrate Christmas, but feel no ties to the religious part of it.

We see Christmas as a good excuse to get the family together in love and celebration of life. We're not very interested in all the religious aspects of it, and we certainly don't feel we're missing out on that in any way, so please don't feel sorry for us!

By the way, there's nothing particularly Christian about getting together with the family for a nice meal, nor about giving presents, nor even a Christmas tree, for that matter.

Christmas has a long and winding history - none of which is as simple as modern-day Christians would have us think.

Christmas was originally a pagan holiday, and it was 'converted' into a Christian holiday as a way of permitting the pagans to have their celebrations as usual, without them being non-Christian celebrations. The tree is one of the most obvious vestigial remains from the original celebration.

No, Christ was not born on December 25th. I'm pretty sure that he was allegedly born sometime during the summer months. Christmas day has nothing to do with Christianity. It's the equivalent of Islamic invaders coming and telling us "Okay, you can continue to celebrate easter with eggs and chocolate and such, but now you have to do it in celebration of Allah" - from then on, Easter is an "Islamic" holiday.

Christmas has since undergone further changes, and is now, in my opinion, a quite secular holiday. Everyone celebrates it. Religious families celebrate it while involving Christianity, non-religious families do it just for the fun and so that their kids don't feel left out. The entire U.S. has off during Christmas, as far as I know, and it's simply NOT a Christian holiday anymore - not even a "pretend" one.

Is there anyone on DV that doesn't celebrate Christmas, out of interest? If so, why not?

I'm an "atheist"(more like a person who believes in science), and I celebrate christmas, because of a family tradition, not because of my parent's faith.
We put up trees, we sing christian songs, we decorate our house with gnomes (or whatever it is) and all.
We get presents at the 24th though

I don't see the problem in making christmas a 'normal' thing tradition, instead of a christmas thing. It can still be a christmas thing, but also something anybody does, just because of all the family fun, the presents () and everything else. Christmas is a time that I really enjoy!

edit: Sindred, some people tend to just not hold christmas, and instead they give small/big presents to each other during the year. I once thought this was a cool idea, and it indeed is, but I'd rather get them all at once, and have some fun with my family

Pretty much combining what Gnome and Marvo have said. Christmas was not originally a Christian holiday, nor is it the un-believers ruining it now, rather than just people who put their money above their faith and decided to commercialize the holiday. I celebrate it because its not so much religious anymore as it is commercial, but not all is lost on the holiday in that it still is tradition to spend with friends and family.

Just in correction to what Gnome said:

No, Christ was not born on December 25th. I'm pretty sure that he was allegedly born sometime during the summer months. Christmas day has nothing to do with Christianity. It's the equivalent of Islamic invaders coming and telling us "Okay, you can continue to celebrate easter with eggs and chocolate and such, but now you have to do it in celebration of Allah" - from then on, Easter is an "Islamic" holiday.

From my understanding it was closer to the fall wasn't it?

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

So I have a question(s) for the atheists.

...do you celebrate Christmas? Do you decorate your houses, put up trees, exchange gifts and do all of that Christmas(y) stuff on/around December 25th? If so, how can you feel justified in piggy-backing off of a holiday that was created by the Christian faith, in celebration of a Christian idol, when you do not subscribe to that religion?

The main reason I'm asking is because I'm seeing Christmas getting stripped away from Christians and basically transformed into something it's not, by people who don't even follow the Christian faith, but want to take part in that "Holiest" of holidays, and I have to say I feel kinda bad for them.

What say you?

Christmas is the terrible Bastardization of a pagan holy day. So why do Christians themselves celebrate it?

Christmas is also basically the equivalent of Columbus Day now. And yes, i "celebrate" it.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

Christmas was originally a pagan holiday, and it was 'converted' into a Christian holiday as a way of permitting the pagans to have their celebrations as usual, without them being non-Christian celebrations. The tree is one of the most obvious vestigial remains from the original celebration.

December 25th was originally the Roman feast of Sol, the Sun God. This winter festival, which was called the 'Nativity of the Sun', was the celebration of when the duration of sunlight begins to increase (winter solstice) - or the 'rebirth' of the 'Sun'.

The giving of gifts is not a Christian idea (after all, the three Wise Men gave gifts to Jesus, not to each other!), but rather is a remnant of the Roman Saturnalia. This festival included of the giving of gifts, special markets, and a school holiday.

Everyone should feel free to participate in this festival, including the Christians, because it is a time of sharing, joyfulness, and rebirth.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

From my understanding it was closer to the fall wasn't it?

Yes, Christ was born out of the Fall.

Hmm. Interesting. I had no idea that Christmas was, fundamentally, so derivative. I just looked a bit into pre-Christian winter festivals (marking things such as the winter solstice, etc.) so I'm beginning to understand that, a bit. So the concept of Christmas was around longer than the Christian version. Ok...I get what all of the ruckus is about, now, in terms of the desire to make it less exclusive to the Christian faith.

Thanks for your answers, everybody.

Weird, I just posted about this in the money thread.

What gnome said. The Christians wanted to "take over" the popular pagan solstice holiday (celebrating return of the sun, etc.). That's what's with all the lights on christmas, something to do with the days getting longer. The tree is Druid, Santa Claus comes from some weird mushroom-distrubuting Nordic guy, etc.

Unfortunately I am forced to participate, as long as I choose to have these annoying "friends and family" in my life. I say unfortunately not because I am an atheist but because I am a scrooge.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

So I have a question(s) for the atheists.

...do you celebrate Christmas? Do you decorate your houses, put up trees, exchange gifts and do all of that Christmas(y) stuff on/around December 25th? If so, how can you feel justified in piggy-backing off of a holiday that was created by the Christian faith, in celebration of a Christian idol, when you do not subscribe to that religion?

The main reason I'm asking is because I'm seeing Christmas getting stripped away from Christians and basically transformed into something it's not, by people who don't even follow the Christian faith, but want to take part in that "Holiest" of holidays, and I have to say I feel kinda bad for them.

What say you?

I celebrate Christmas as a family tradition and as an anniversary of some of the most ecstatic days of my childhood. However, I only celebrate it by exchanging presents and hanging out with my family. I don't ever buy Christmas trees or put on Christmas music or anything like that. I sometimes make people I know laugh by telling them I have a Christmas tree.

I don't think Christmas is being stripped away from Christians. It is just being stripped away from the government, which I think is awesome. Christians are still free to do all the snowman Christmas carolling by the Christmas tree under the mistletoe to Burl Ives and Perry Como with Rudolph on the television and Daddy dressed up like Santa Claus they want to do. I am fine with that, and I wish I could get that much into Christmas. I really miss having the Christmas spirit. It was an incredible feeling.

Originally Posted by Siиdяed

Is there anyone on DV that doesn't celebrate Christmas, out of interest? If so, why not?

My family never celebrated Christmas. Since my parents are like hard-core socialists and atheists. We celebrate the new year, I guess it's very similar to the way other people celebrate Christmas. When I was a kid we had "grandfather winter" who was the communist version of santa . So I guess I don't celebrate Christmas.

I thought Santa Claus comes from saint Nicolas who gave oranges and other "gifts" to children. People in Germany "changed" the name into santa claus. That's what I heard.
I also read somewhere that Odin flew around in a chariot picking older people on "Christmas", the ones who diserved to go to Valhalla or something like that.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

Christmas was originally a pagan holiday, and it was 'converted' into a Christian holiday as a way of permitting the pagans to have their celebrations as usual, without them being non-Christian celebrations. The tree is one of the most obvious vestigial remains from the original celebration.

Yeah, it was also celebration of the birth of Mithras. Interesting how it turned to Christ. During the 4th century, academics speculate it was a political movement in order to unify Christians and pagans to stop the constant wars.

No, Christ was not born on December 25th. I'm pretty sure that he was allegedly born sometime during the summer months.

January. I always find the exact date to be different amongst sources.

In answer to the threads question - I personally think it is a commercial holiday now. However, I do not let that "insincereity" take away from the joy and economic benefit of the holiday.
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Originally Posted by Bonsay

I thought Santa Claus comes from saint Nicolas who gave oranges and other "gifts" to children. People in Germany "changed" the name into santa claus. That's what I heard.

There was a Bishop in Turkey who was the original gift-giver, I think.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I also read somewhere that Odin flew around in a chariot picking older people on "Christmas", the ones who diserved to go to Valhalla or something like that.

I think this is where the red and white outfit came from, patterned after the mushrooms given out. (They used the mushrooms for bravery during fighting.)

Very strange, I know. If anyone knows who David Sedaris, and how he explains the whole Bishop from Turkey thing, it is hilarious.

Coca-Cola made up the Santa Claus outfit, though I'm unsure whether they made the name.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Coca-Cola made up the Santa Claus outfit, though I'm unsure whether they made the name.

Where'd you hear that? I heard something completely different. There were a lot of old Coke ads with Santa Claus, I remember them on the back of old National Geographics.

Wait, I made an edition to my post, like 5 minutes after, but apparently it didn't go in.

Anyway, after further research, I found out Coca-Cola weren't the ones who made it, they were the first ones to make the modern look well-known though. They made it big

Originally Posted by Marvo

Wait, I made an edition to my post, like 5 minutes after, but apparently it didn't go in.

Anyway, after further research, I found out Coca-Cola weren't the ones who made it, they were the first ones to make the modern look well-known though. They made it big

Definitly. He used be skinny and just green, I believe.
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I know that. If you read my post, you'll notice I said the modern look, not the actual idea.

Personally, I find it interesting that people are today upset by the choice of the date for this Christian celebration. As a Christian, living in this day and age, I can't help but think, "What do you want us/me to do about it?" You might convince some millions/billions of people to change the date, but then others would be upset because it would fall on some other somehow important date.

I support knowing the history behind a holiday, but if you think about the placement of the holiday, it's just politics. Unless you get worked up easily over politics, I don't see what the big deal is.

I'm not emotional about this, really, but I just wanted to throw that out there. To each his own.

I celebrate Christmas with my family, because they are christians...but I ask them not to buy me anything, while I still try to get things for the little kids (I have some very young cousins, and really its nice for them to get things since most of my family are poor asses lol)


and to Amethyst Star's post about the date of Christmas...

Yeah I agree, I know people who don't celebrate untill far after christmas when the prices are cheaper for goods....just like the people who buy halloween candy after halloween, etc.

I celebrate christmas, i'm an atheist(with benefits).

Originally Posted by thegnome54

The entire U.S. has off during Christmas, as far as I know, and it's simply NOT a Christian holiday anymore - not even a "pretend" one.

I have an answer for that, so I just thought I'd share. Newspaper deliverers don't have it off. I'm not sure if any other jobs don't have it off. I'm guessing hospitals or any other place that needs to be open.

A lot of people mock delivering papers as something a young kid would do. But it's not so easy waking up in the middle of the night (3AM for some) and driving to get 300+ papers and bagging and delivering them all perfectly so nobody complains ( I was surprised at how many people take the time to complain about trivial placement, or how it gets wet when its pouring rain out.) and usually before 7 or so.

I know this because my dad does this, he gets up at 3 and gets back around 7 and goes to another job at like 8. I help sometimes, and it really sucks in the winter. You have to drive around with the windows down almost the whole time. You have to deliver on christmas, but I think the winter time tips are worth it, thats why he does it anyway.

Don't even get me started on sundays.... 300 huge papers. You should see how that looks stuffed into a car. Or even a Jeep. It's to the roof. I wish I had a picture, hah

Originally Posted by yay

Newspaper deliverers don't have it off. I'm not sure if any other jobs don't have it off. I'm guessing hospitals or any other place that needs to be open.

I've worked a lot of Xmas' in my life, but I don't think I ever got a newspaper delivered.