Thread: For Christians- Was Jesus Really Crucified? and The Ultimate Dialogue

A strange first post.

Originally Posted by Rock

since atheists dont believe in God they will probably come here and curse both religions, and i sincerely dont want that. if you dont have anything to say, dont say it

'

Originally Posted by Rock

What crap

I concur.

see, this is exactly the type of bull i didnt want to see, youre ovbviously an atheist, so please stay out of this, will you? what possible benefit did you do anyone with your stupid post? stop spamming.

Originally Posted by Rock

see, this is exactly the type of bull i didnt want to see, youre ovbviously an atheist, so please stay out of this, will you? what possible benefit did you do anyone with your stupid post? stop spamming.

So uh.. atheists can't have opinions? Obviously you're coming from a position where one of Islam/Christianity is correct, so why is the position that neither is correct 'bull'?

Anyway, who's really going to watch all of those videos? Why not sum up the most important points for discussion?

yes they can, but their opinions arent valid here, besides you saw how moonbeam reacted- if you call this a valid discussion, then well... theres a big problem here. you see, the problem is that the discussions dont tackle the existence of God, because both religions have that as a given. Why would an atheist be involved in such a discussion? plus, if you wish to say that both are 'bull' (see, i didnt say that atheism was bull, i said that moonbeam's post was, as it is nothing but a waste of sapce), then that will take us to the point of Does God Exist. Thats a whole other topic and a whole other thread. in debates, i prefer to stick to a certain topic or else it will turn into a flamed, insult-full, multi-topic waste of space. Finally, I said that people are welcome to cooment on either video, not both as they are not related. Just depends on what you would be more interested in : Proof that the Bible itself doesnt say that Jesus was crucified (big shock, ey?) or Proof that the Bible is incompatible with modern science and has numerous scientific mistakes.

Even though I'm not a christian, I would have voted, but I dont know who any of these people are. Looks like nobody else does either. I would say the best argument is the bible, but that doesn't say much. The bible does say that he was crucified too... where did you read that it doesn't? Unless my bible is tainted. I've read it several times, that's one of the reaons I'm atheist.

I am an atheist, so I am not going to get into the exact manner in which God, in the form of his son, had himself murdered back to Paradise, where he had been for eternity. I am just here to give a recap on Rock's rules of thread behavior so Rock will follow them, and to refer you to John 19:18 (I used to be a Christian.). http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=John+19

Originally Posted by Rock

the fact that this section allows and tolerates bashing, disrespect, insults, etc... makes me very wary and i hope that the participators refrain as much as possible from that sort of behaviour and stick to facts.

Originally Posted by Rock

you are welcome to participate but only with contribution and not bashing

Originally Posted by Rock

because, you know- since atheists dont believe in God they will probably come here and curse both religions

Originally Posted by Rock

I hope this topic produces a healthy and clean debate full of facts and free of disrespectful and 'wise-guy' comments.

Originally Posted by Rock

what possible benefit did you do anyone with your stupid post?

Originally Posted by Rock

i didnt say that atheism was bull, i said that moonbeam's post was

Originally Posted by Rock

i prefer to stick to a certain topic or else it will turn into a flamed, insult-full, multi-topic waste of space.

There you have it.

Thanks UM.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Thanks UM.

Sadly I can't watch any of those videos as my internet connection is far too low.

To Universal Mind... Well, This topic is too big for me to hold in one post. They have been discussed in 14 points mentioned in the first video. But since youre an atheist, I hardly think you are interested in contradictions in the bible (or are you?). You won't understand what I mean till you watch it. This thread was meant for christians to answer the 14 points in the first video and the 22 in the second video, but if you (as an atheist) wish to take that responsibility and do that in contribution, then you are more than welcome. (Take note, Moonbeam and spoon, thats what I was talking about when I said atheists are welcome to participate with contribution and not bashing). UM, although he didnt watch any of the videos, he didnt post a useless, meaningless post that wasted everyone who opened this thread's time. He thought with logic, saw that I said that the Bible doesnt say that Jesus was crucified, used his memory or research and dug up a verse that does. Ofcourse, as I said- as an answer to what he said, all I can say is watch the video- I cant put a whole 45-minute lecture + 15 minute rebuttal + 1 hour Q&A session in 1 or even more posts. (That is besides the lecture and rebuttal of the Pastor). That is one point, hope that is enough for you UM. (for now)

To Michael, if you had bothered to read the first post, you would have understood what the poll is about. 4 arguments were made in these 2 videos, and the poll is for people who watched 1 or 2 of 'em.

To GestaltAlteration : Well... I may agree that the first video requires a relatively high connection to stream properly (although i cant imagine 512 kbps being high?). But the second tape is actually an audio cassette (no video so it will stream at an incredibly high speed), so even if your speed is dial up or even lower (if thats possible), it should work without any problems. oh and dont forget it needs Realplayer for you to play it.

Hope that answers everyone so far

24.6k connection. 1-2kb/s download speed.

Originally Posted by Rock

Take note, Moonbeam and spoon, thats what I was talking about

Originally Posted by Rock

'What crap, This doesnt mean anything'

*

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

*

Sure, Moonie. Take the softballs.

I'll try to be respectful here, even though I'm not convinced the OP is.

Rock: An Atheist may well believe that Christ was crucified. Might they not have a useful contribution to make on the question? Just because one doesn't believe in god it doesn't mean they automatically don't have an interest in history (real or imagined).

On another note, your assumption that any given atheist is likely to "curse" religions (as well as "have nothing to say") is quite offensive. Tolerance begets tolerance, my friend.

Originally Posted by skysaw

Rock: An Atheist may well believe that Christ was crucified. Might they not have a useful contribution to make on the question? Just because one doesn't believe in god it doesn't mean they automatically don't have an interest in history (real or imagined).

When exactly did I say that? and are you really willing (as an atheist) to watch a 3 hour video about someone you dont even beleive existed in the first place? and as i said, youre welcome to contribute with facts. but this thread was meant for christians to reply to the points in the tape. Are you willing to do that ie defend the Bible in the accusations against it? I seriously doubt it. I just cant see how an atheist would be interested in this, just as I wouldnt be interested in a Hinduism vs Buddhism debate for example.

Originally Posted by skysaw

On another note, your assumption that any given atheist is likely to "curse" religions (as well as "have nothing to say") is quite offensive. Tolerance begets tolerance, my friend.

well, this 'assumption' is more or less a conclusion, that resulted from past experience. since an atheist doesnt beleive in a God, thinks that God's existence is absurd, then he has no problem in mocking him (God forbid) or people who do belive in him. This forum is unmoderated, and it doesnt need a genius to figure out that an insult, wise-ass comment, sarcasm, etc... would emerge ever so slightly. ive seen it happen millions of times where a debate invloving an atheist vs anyone (99% of the cases christian) is a session of futile bashing and outrageous insults.

Besides, all that aside- why are only atheists posting on this thread? where are the christians (or even the muslims for that matter)? and what do you (atheists) want from me anyway? why are you so invloved in this topic? if you really want to take this to the next level, then watch the tapes and maybe then we'll have a discussion, Although i dont really see how that could happen except like this:
Rock : The Bible says so and so and contradicts itself at so and so
Atheist : I dont beleive in the Bible, wont bother to defend it
Rock : ....

If youre not willing to watch the tapes, then dont waste my time and yours over a very strange argument. Seriously, what are we arguing about? and what do you want from me?

P.S : I dont mean an insult for Hinduism or Buddhism, just expressing how irrelevant it is to me. Also, I have respect to all religions and never chose insulting or anything of that sort as means of discussion. i believe that educated, scientific and fact-full debates are the best for all parties involved. if you disagre... well... No comment.

Originally Posted by skysaw

Sure, Moonie. Take the softballs.

It wouldn't let me just use quotes for a post. I didn't know that.

Personally...i dont think anyone would take the time to watch a 3h20 minute video- so basically...you're not going to get any constructive posts.
If you want to have some discussion give us the main points/facts.

Originally Posted by sfdthegreat

Personally...i dont think anyone would take the time to watch a 3h20 minute video- so basically...you're not going to get any constructive posts.
If you want to have some discussion give us the main points/facts.

You got kind of a good point there, my friend. Although, I had expected better than this, as this isnt the first time for me to do it. It usually takes a while, but once one christian watches and comments, then the debate takes form. For some reason, I don't expect this to happen here- I mean there were about 150 views and not 1 proper comment. This would lead us to 3 assumptions

1. No christian opened this thread: Highly unlikely given the 146 views and the hard-to-miss title
2. Some christians watched, didnt find a reply to the points so didnt post: No one can prove or disprove this, so we will put it at rest.
3. What you kindly said- that no one saw it fit to spend 3 hrs on it.

The safest assumption is #3. No problem. For argument's sake, I will choose a critical point of the talk (about 25 minutes) which includes the primary 22 scientific mistakes in the Bible (I say primary because others were mentioned) and use the conflict approach in these 25-30 minutes as my opening argument. There are other points ofcourse (and also about the Q'uran). But for argument's sake I will start with this part of the lecture.

The part im talking about is the second debate (the audio cassette):

Second tape (the Dr. Zakir Naik lecture) which lasts a total of 1:03:32.
The section im talking about starts from around the 35th minute.so watch (listen ) from 0:35:00 till the end.

After this, there will be no excuse for christians in assumption #3, which will lead us to safely assume that #2 is the correct assumption. I only ask for 25 minutes now.

Finally, this section might interest some atheists. might.

Nobody voted, so I took the honors. I don't know anything about this, but when in doubt, pick C!

Originally Posted by Michael

Nobody voted, so I took the honors. I don't know anything about this, but when in doubt, pick C!

Ironically, C would be my choice too. Anyway, if you had read post #18, maybe it will help you a little.

Not a good introduction to the forum, Rock. You're burning bridges left and right. hopefully you can turn it around, otherwise you are not going to enjoy your time here.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Not a good introduction to the forum, Rock. You're burning bridges left and right. hopefully you can turn it around, otherwise you are not going to enjoy your time here.

Like you, for me at least. I didn't like you at first, but now I respect you.

I see my vote is still the only one...

This was a useless post but I hada show Xaq that I don't hate him anymore
He has way more knowledge than me.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Not a good introduction to the forum, Rock. You're burning bridges left and right. hopefully you can turn it around, otherwise you are not going to enjoy your time here.

what do you mean? what did I do wrong?what am/was I supposed to do?

Well first of all, I wouldn't advise alienating any group of people (refering to your comment about atheists) when trying to avoid bashing and general malcontent among posters. Usually this just fuels the fire. Second, it isn't very wise to be the first to throw negative comments ("youre ovbviously an atheist, so please stay out of this, will you? what possible benefit did you do anyone with your stupid post?") when asking others not to do the same.

Also, and this is just a matter of opinion, but when you are posting a thread that you intend to garner meaningful responses with it isn't exactly wise to just post 3 hours of study material without offering any sort of summary or personal opinion on the subject. This forum isn't necessarily geared towards the religious enthusiast and so most people will not want to spend one eighth of their day preparing just to have a discussion with you.

even with that 35 minute cut, its still...boring lol.
Its hard to understand with the accent and most of it you forget a minute later. People on this forum aren't going to use their time (ITS AUDIO TOO!) for these types of religious things.

Of course, thats just what I think, so some of those assumptions may be incorrect...