A Divine Revelation Of Hell....

Ladies and Gentlemen I am a true believer in God and the LORD Jesus Christ.. But after reading a book yesterday in only a few hours my faith in Jesus grew 10 times then what it was...

I dont know if any of you have heard of the book called "A Divine Revelation Of Hell" by Mary K Baxtor?

It is about Mary Baxtor herself and about her first hand experience she had...In her true book Jesus came to her and gave her visions through dreams/meditation/visions themselves of Hell...

Jesus took her out of her body and brought her to hell to show her what Hell was like and told her "I have a use for every person on this planet..I want to show you this, and for you to write a book telling everyone about Hell"


If you have yet to read this book or have yet to hear about it, I strongly advise you of the Christian or Non Believer to pick it up and read it.. You can find it at amazon.com for real cheap as a used book or I picked up my copy at BordersBook for 12.99 plus tax...


I know there is alot of people that doubt that exsistence of Jesus Christ because they do not believe what he did is possible..You can take the BIBLE literally or you can take it in whatever way you want, but in the end It is about how much FAITH you have in Jesus Christ.. and I am telling all non believers to repent from your sins and ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness and for him to come into your life...


In the book Stated above Jesus states "In Hell you still have all your senses..You can smell, touch, taste,feel, and hear all" Imagine being torturned for an eternity and wanting so badly even the smallest drink of water, but not being able to have a sip...


In a part of the book Mary Baxtor wrote that at one point a Satan Worshipper stood infront of Satan and asked "Where is my Kingdom?" Because Satan Worshippers believe if they Worship Satan they will get a Kingdom of some short.... Satan laughed and said "You actually think I am going to give you apart of my kingdom?" He put the Satan worshipper in what is similar to a jail sell but only thing in it was a rocking chair and said "Here is your kingdom"



In closing i'll quote what Jesus stated in the Book stated above "The worst Torture in Hell isnt for The unbelievers, but for the ones who knew of me, but turned their backs away...."


I PRAY FOR ALL THOSE WHO HAVE YET TO FIND CHRIST AND FOR ALL THOSE WHO NEED HIM!!"

Spiritofthewolf

I read it, and it would be the scariest thing I have ever read if the author didn't act like such a neurotically nutty holy roller the whole way through it, stopping the narration all the time to say, "Praise the Lord!" The book says Hell is in the shape of a human body and that its divisions are different body parts. Huh? It also says that Hell is literally inside Earth. The scene that sticks out the most is when a lady, who is nothing but a skeleton on fire, begs Jesus to let her out of Hell and Jesus tells her he won't do it because she had her chance to avoid eternal torture. How loving is that? I can't imagine not saving somebody from eternal torment if I can. Jesus said the same thing to a man who was on fire. One of Jesus' comments to the guy was, "I even died on a cross for you." I have asked many times here what that has to do with anything if Jesus still exists and is in the form he has always been in except for 33 years. Can you imagine telling somebody drowning you won't save him because he had his chance to stay away from the water? That is so cold blooded. What a sinister way Jesus created the universe if Hell is one of its realities.

Have any of you read "23 Minutes in Hell" by Bill Wiese? I think he mentioned that other woman in his book and I found it pretty interesting. It seems alot better than that other book, as far as it not having religious statements thrown everywhere. One thing I found weird was that later after his one trip happened, he asked God to just give him a tiny piece of it again to make sure that it really happened and he goes there for a few seconds. Even if you don't believe in it, it is still a great read and the material the book is made of is amazing. Its like a mix between a hard and a soft cover. Basically a hard thin sheet and it feels good and doesnt get all messed up.

Jesus was saddened by all the souls that he saw in Hell...To me you act like you are downgrading Jesus because he denied to let out souls that begged them for mercy and forgiveness...You must understand that Jesus had already given them that chance (when they were alive...like you are now)... Jesus didnt create Hell.. Satan was an Angel of God before Hell even exsisted.. Satan got jealous of Gods POWER and wanted some for himself... Then God casted out Satan which is referred to as "A Fallen Angel"..Satan became the "Ruler" of Hell...

Jesus doesnt want anybody to go to hell..If you really did read the book like you said you did, you would have read that part too.. Jesus doesnt want anybody to go to hell, That is why he has given us the chance to repent from our sins and follow him now, before its too late...because after we die, like Jesus says "Judgement Has Been Set"

spiritofthewolf

....SIGH

joey can't pretend to believe in Jesus Christ if it goes against his inner core. I just cannot believe in a God AT ALL. I'm not going to pretend to just to avoid going to Hell, because i wouldn't really be believing, i'd be lying to save my own skin, this God would see through it anyway. :(

Whos to say that these books are true? Whether God exists or not. These could just simply, and likely are, just fictional books that the author tried to pass off as truth.

Who says these people really had these visions and experiences, and that they aren't just entirely made up?

Anyway, with what Universal Mind says, the phrase "I even died on the cross for you" shows Jesus as arrogant and self absorbed. Which, whether God exists or not, he was not. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, was a real person. Son of God or not, I don't know. I don't believe in God. But, thats not the point. The point is, whether he was the son of God or not, he was a loving and caring individual, who would never say a statement like that.

As well, Jesus promised forgiveness to those who asked for it. If someone were to beg for forgiveness, Jesus would grant it. Jesus denied the forgiveness of these people.

Simply put, if hell is real or not, the book is a bunch of lies that the author just made up, just like nearly every other religious 'revelation' that someone has been 'instructed' to write about.

^^To the person above^^

Jesus Forgives people who are willing to repent from their sins and walk with Him.. The people in Hell who asked Jesus for forgiveness after they had died were already too late..If you lived a life all for your own, died, Then knew after being tortured for so long that toture was going to be for all eternity, wouldnt you beg for forgiveness too???

Jesus has already give you the chance to ask for forgiveness, the time is now.. Like i stated previously...After you die Judgement is set.. Jesus said it himself....

And for the record..In the book, those who had begged Jesus for forgiveness--after Jesus told them "I am sorry, but Judgement has been set"---Started cussing and calling Jesus names because they didnt get what they want...

Jesus has a the door open for all who is willing to come through...Its just that most of society chooses to slam or close that door shut....and on the other side of that closed door...Jesus the son of God is still waiting...No matter how many times people close the door in his face....

A friend of mine told me this...

"Gods Hands are pretty much behind his back"

Meaning God and Jesus has given us the choice... Live for this Life..Or the one after...In the End it is our choice, and In the End we face the outcome of our Decision....Good Or Bad.....We Reep What We Sow....

Besides, even if Jesus was willing to help the souls of the damned or tried to help there would be nothing he could do. God set up the rules, once the souls go to hell those are the devils possesions and god can't just take them away, I guess he could but its not his plan, he wants to wait untill the end of days to start the war so that more people hear his message and I think that by freeing a soul from hell god would start the war early, there by destroying the atheists chances at repentance and forgiveness.

Did you just say that God wants to start a war?

Yes. The war between himself and the devil. It will be a time when demons walk the earth and great and horrible plauges will happen and all the earth will share one currency. Eventualy though god will kick the devils butt and he will be destroyed and he will establish his earthly kingdom.

God, the all powerful, all wonderful God as religion so claims, does not want a war. God is too good for that. If God wants a war, there is a problem with God, and thus a problem with whoever the hell is running our world.

Besides, thats all wrong. There already was a war in Heaven, when Satan fell. God gave Satan hell too avoid war. God, as good as he is, would never want a war.

Thats if he even exists.

A man once stated in a vision he has of Heaven...

God Told him this

"Let Mankind Know I will be Returning to shake the earth..For Mankind Has forgotten about me, Therefore I will Return To Shake The Earth One Last time"


amen to that

God Bless

I don't believe in God, but I will argue from the standpoint that he does exist and that he exists in the form of Jesus.

Is Jesus infinitely powerful, or is he not? If he is infinitely powerful, then he can get people out of Hell. There is no way around that. He could also have created existence in such a way that Hell would never exist, and he could have made it where that is not a problem. I don't buy the idea that a place of eternal torture is necessary when there is an infinitely powerful God. It doesn't make any sense. Telling a drowning person, "I don't want you to drown, but you had your chance to stay away from the water, so you don't get my help even though I can give it to you," is very evil. The Jesus described in the Bible was nothing like that. He was a good, peaceful man, and his best friend was a prostitute.

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

Mankind Has forgotten about me

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If God is infinitely intelligent, he knows the fallacious nature of generalizations.

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

Therefore I will Return To Shake The Earth One Last time"

amen to that

God Bless

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Amen to shaking the Earth? So you feel a religious thrill over natural disasters causing mass death? Please quote Jesus on where he promoted that way of thinking.

Jesus is not infinitly powerful. He gets his power from god. My understanding is that while on earth jesus could do what god could do but he was loyal to his father. If jesus started to be evil I think god would have shut him down in about a second flat. A soul in hell is not like a drownding person. These people knew they would go to hell if they didn't repent. If a person knew he was going to drowned if he went in the water would they do it? once they do it they have made there choice. Jesus did try to save people from hell. when he was on earth he tried to save everybody.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Amen to shaking the Earth? So you feel a religious thrill over natural disasters causing mass death? Please quote Jesus on where he promoted that way of thinking.

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We don't say amen because people will die. We say amen because god is going to come to earth and establish his kingdom . People will die, true. But god will establish his kingdom on earth.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

We don't say amen because people will die. We say amen because god is going to come to earth and establish his kingdom . People will die, true. But god will establish his kingdom on earth.

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Spirit of the Wolf didn't say anything about building a kingdom. He said Amen to the shaking of the Earth.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

Jesus is not infinitly powerful. He gets his power from god. My understanding is that while on earth jesus could do what god could do but he was loyal to his father. If jesus started to be evil I think god would have shut him down in about a second flat. A soul in hell is not like a drownding person. These people knew they would go to hell if they didn't repent. If a person knew he was going to drowned if he went in the water would they do it? once they do it they have made there choice. Jesus did try to save people from hell. when he was on earth he tried to save everybody.

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People who do not believe they are going to Hell are not choosing it. And I thought Jesus was supposed to be God. If not, then God is being apathetic about people burning forever. I don't relate to that level of apathy.

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

I am telling all non believers to repent from your sins and ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness and for him to come into your life...
Imagine being torturned for an eternity and wanting so badly even the smallest drink of water, but not being able to have a sip...

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You should be damn well ashamed of yourself, threatening people and trying to blackmail them into believing your religion. Why should we worry about your Hell when you're not at all concerned about Narak, Jannaham, Xibalba, or Mictlan?

You can't possibly know that you're correct, and trying to scare people into agreeing with your ideas is just shameful. :angry:

I didn't post that...hackers or somthing. I didn't post the thing about Amen.

And how could you worship something that knowingly set up existence in such a way that most humans will be severely tortured for eternity? Something that does that is not worthy of worship.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

I didn't post that...hackers or somthing. I didn't post the thing about Amen.

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Is this a joke?

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Universal Mind:Amen to shaking the Earth? So you feel a religious thrill over natural disasters causing mass death? Please quote Jesus on where he promoted that way of thinking.

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I never said anything about Death..Shaking The Earth could mean many things, and it wasnt Jesus who stated it, it was GOD...and I heard about it from one of my friends who read up on peoples Visions of Heaven/Hell and he came across this book..I will get the name for you when I talk to him again...

You talk about you not understanding why God wouldnt grant someone mercy who is already in Hell begging for it? Of course they are begging for Mercy, they are going to be tortured for Eternity..

Its sort of like saying Your Sorry, When the only reason you are truly sorry is because you got caught..If you didnt have to face the consequences of your actions, You Would have never of said you were sorry.. Or in Gods Case, begging for forgiveness after you are already in Hell because you decided to chose a life of your own, instead of a life for God...Would you still beg for forgiveness if you werent in Hell???

Jesus gives you the chance for forgiveness, the time is now...He states in the bible, The consequences of living a life of sin is death and you shall be cast into the lake of fire....Repent now before its too late

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Spirit of the Wolf didn't say anything about building a kingdom. He said Amen to the shaking of the Earth.



People who do not believe they are going to Hell are not choosing it. And I thought Jesus was supposed to be God. If not, then God is being apathetic about people burning forever. I don't relate to that level of apathy.

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God created jesus to see the world through the eyes of man. God put his holy spirit into jesus so he could preform great works. It is very confusing, the three in one, in an impossible to explain way jesus is god but he isn't, he is only the son of god. You'd have to ask silverzero about that one. God isn't apathetic about people going to hell. He sends messengers to earth to try and change there minds and he gives them visions and priests to help them. When someone goes to hell he is the devils property. God is planing on destroying hell and satan through a war on earth between angles and demons, but untill that day, when your in hell the devil owns you. As for the satement that the people who don't believe in god aren't choosing to go to hell, well that is just not true. They know that they will go to hell if they don't convert according to our religon. They may not believe it but they know that it is the theory. I didn't mean to offend anyone if I did, I'm sorry.

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

I never said anything about Death..Shaking The Earth could mean many things, and it wasnt Jesus who stated it, it was GOD...and I heard about it from one of my friends who read up on peoples Visions of Heaven/Hell and he came across this book..I will get the name for you when I talk to him again...

You talk about you not understanding why God wouldnt grant someone mercy who is already in Hell begging for it? Of course they are begging for Mercy, they are going to be tortured for Eternity..

Its sort of like saying Your Sorry, When the only reason you are truly sorry is because you got caught..If you didnt have to face the consequences of your actions, You Would have never of said you were sorry.. Or in Gods Case, begging for forgiveness after you are already in Hell because you decided to chose a life of your own, instead of a life for God...Would you still beg for forgiveness if you werent in Hell???

Jesus gives you the chance for forgiveness, the time is now...He states in the bible, The consequences of living a life of sin is death and you shall be cast into the lake of fire....Repent now before its too late

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It's horrifically cold blooded. Nobody deserves eternal torture, especially just for honestly thinking Christianity is not logical. Not thinking Christianity is logical is totally understandable, especially in the modern scientific age. Not believing something is not evil. Punishing somebody just for not believing something is evil. Punishing somebody by letting them be tortured forever when only you could let them out is infinitely evil.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

God created jesus to see the world through the eyes of man. God put his holy spirit into jesus so he could preform great works. It is very confusing, the three in one, in an impossible to explain way jesus is god but he isn't, he is only the son of god. You'd have to ask silverzero about that one. God isn't apathetic about people going to hell. He sends messengers to earth to try and change there minds and he gives them visions and priests to help them. When someone goes to hell he is the devils property. God is planing on destroying hell and satan through a war on earth between angles and demons, but untill that day, when your in hell the devil owns you. As for the satement that the people who don't believe in god aren't choosing to go to hell, well that is just not true. They know that they will go to hell if they don't convert according to our religon. They may not believe it but they know that it is the theory. I didn't mean to offend anyone if I did, I'm sorry.

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I do know about the claim. That does not mean it makes sense to me. Therefore, I would not be choosing Hell. I don't think anybody would. And there is a very big third world out there full of people who don't know jack about the claim.

No UM it's not a joke. I forgot that I had posted it. It slipped my mind as soon as I wrote it.

I don't use internet slang on forums much but... this calls for a LOL.

No one hacked you to post something stupid XD

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

No UM it's not a joke. I forgot that I had posted it. It slipped my mind as soon as I wrote it.

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So are you the real Lucid_boy... or THE IMPOSTER?????? :happyhappy:

I didn't write that. It must have been a hacker.

Oh yeah. I did write that.

All You Atheists Don't Get It So Let Me Post It In Bigger Print. God Can Free The Souls From Hell, Sure. But If He Did The War Between Angels And Demons Would Start Early And He Doesn't Want That Because Then You Won't Be Able To Seek Forgiveness.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

All You Atheists Don't Get It So Let Me Post It In Bigger Print. God Can Free The Souls From Hell, Sure. But If He Did The War Between Angels And Demons Would Start Early And He Doesn't Want That Because Then You Won't Be Able To Seek Forgiveness.

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Could he make it where that wouldn't happen after he gets people out of Hell?

how many times must i say this...

God and Jesus has shown you the truth....It is your choice if you want to believe it or not...Jesus is saddened by the souls who are in Hell, He doesnt want anybody to go to hell...


The reason why people go to hell isnt because of God or Jesus, its because of the choices we make here on earth...We Reep what We Sow.. We Choose our own Destiny...God and Jesus warns us plenty...it is up to us to listen...

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

All You Atheists Don't Get It So Let Me Post It In Bigger Print. God Can Free The Souls From Hell, Sure. But If He Did The War Between Angels And Demons Would Start Early And He Doesn't Want That Because Then You Won't Be Able To Seek Forgiveness.

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From the believer's perspective,

God is all powerful. God is powerful enough to free the souls, without war, and still offer others forgiveness. If God cannot do that, well, hes not as powerful as your led to believe now is he?

no, the devil would send his minions off to attack earth and heaven. I often times, and I may be completely wrong about this, think that god only has limited control over the devil. He is far more powerful and is stronger than satan and has some control over him but I don't think he has complete control over him. Once again I may be completely wrong about this.

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

how many times must i say this...

God and Jesus has shown you the truth....It is your choice if you want to believe it or not...Jesus is saddened by the souls who are in Hell, He doesnt want anybody to go to hell...


The reason why people go to hell isnt because of God or Jesus, its because of the choices we make here on earth...We Reep what We Sow.. We Choose our own Destiny...God and Jesus warns us plenty...it is up to us to listen...

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That doesn't answer my question. Could he get people out of Hell without a problem, or could he not?

And I don't choose Hell. I have no idea how to make sense of Christianity. Hell is a nonsense concept, and it is not my fault that it seems that way to me. If Christianity makes so much sense, then you should have no problem answering the question you keep dodging.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

god only has limited control over the devil.

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That would mean God is not infinitely powerful.

To answer your question Universal..Yes God could get people out of Hell if he so chose too, but he doesnt not because the people who are there chose their own fate.. God has given people the truth, it is written..It is up to us to believe and follow in God and Christ...In The Bible GOD and Jesus warns us all of what is to come if we live a life for ourselves and not for them...Once we die, Heaven Or Hell either which way you go, Judgement is Set, there is no turning back..

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

To answer your question Universal..Yes God could get people out of Hell if he so chose too, but he doesnt not because the people who are there chose their own fate.. God has given people the truth, it is written..It is up to us to believe and follow in God and Christ...In The Bible GOD and Jesus warns us all of what is to come if we live a life for ourselves and not for them...Once we die, Heaven Or Hell either which way you go, Judgement is Set, there is no turning back..

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Like I said... That would be very evil. It would be like watching somebody get held up by a gunman and saying, "I created that gunman and every law of reality behind his behavior. If you will believe that 2 + 2 = 5, you can avoid being shot. You have been warned." However, the difference is that the message is given in the form of an ancient book that contradicts itself and scientific facts and the gunman and the gun are invisible. That is not a simple matter of choice.

I don't know why but someone calling the bible an acient book makes me laugh, nice laughter of course but it makes me laugh, I never really thought about the bible as a book...

God didnt put the gunmen there..The gunmen chose to put himself there...If the Gunmen believe in God and Jesus, he would be doing Godly things...Not robbing people of their money/belongings...

How many times must I say...Gods has stated the Truth it is up to us which path we take and what decisions we make.. If we want to follow God and Jesus that is our choice (not gods or jesus) If we want to go and rob/steal/kill/rape that is our choice (not gods or jesus) But in the End we will have to face the consequences of our actions...Good Or Bad...and when JUDGEMENT is set...JUDGEMENT is set....

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

God didnt put the gunmen there..The gunmen chose to put himself there...If the Gunmen believe in God and Jesus, he would be doing Godly things...Not robbing people of their money/belongings...

How many times must I say...Gods has stated the Truth it is up to us which path we take and what decisions we make.. If we want to follow God and Jesus that is our choice (not gods or jesus) If we want to go and rob/steal/kill/rape that is our choice (not gods or jesus) But in the End we will have to face the consequences of our actions...Good Or Bad...and when JUDGEMENT is set...JUDGEMENT is set....

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The gunman represents Satan, whom God supposedly created. You keep telling me I can choose to believe Christianity and that not doing so calls for eternal torture. I have no idea how to. Please explain to me how to go about thinking Christianity makes sense. I really want to know.

how does the gunmen represent Satan? We all have our own minds we all know what is right and wrong...Until you have felt the holy spirit inside you, you will have a hard time believeing in Christianity....On the otherhand, The bible has been proven more times to be TRUE then false...and it has been proven over science (and evolution) and even over atheist.. (how do i know) Because I have Family who researches the Bible exstensivly (on bothsides of the coin)

As much as you may think, your family are not experts. In actuality, the Bible has been closer to proven false many more times.

I say closer to, not entirely. Why? Because it can't be proven either way. Just because there are some similarities in the Bible or possible coincidences of things it 'predicted' doesn't mean its truth.

trust me ExoByte do your research..Studies have proven otherwise, the bible holds true..if you dont want to believe it that is your choice and I respect that, I know what I believe in is true and i will stick with that

Well guys, as you all know, I like to tell you all when i'm ditching and topic and give a friendly goodbye. who knows why god won't free the souls from hell. we, wolf and I, could be completely wrong about god. The bible says that his ways are not our ways, his thoughts not our thoughts, just like the thoughts of the cow chewing its cud are not human thoughts nor ways. I hope you all have a wonderful night and that your lives are going well, I hope that if there is sickness among you that it is cured and I hope that you all sleep well. If you guys want to discuss another angle fo the bible I am all ears but as far as this one goes...

Lucid Boy, over and out.

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

trust me ExoByte do your research..Studies have proven otherwise, the bible holds true..if you dont want to believe it that is your choice and I respect that, I know what I believe in is true and i will stick with that

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You do your research. There are many arguments, and just because your family has found certain aspects to be true, doesn't mean they can't be either A: Countered B: Flawed or C: that there aren't alternate possibilities.

There are many people, Religious Scholars, Religious Fanatics, Scientists, Philosophers, and a lot of others, God believers and not, Zealots and not, and extremists or not that have found or "proven" the Bible to be true or untrue.

Heres an idea. Post your family's "Proofs"

same as i...good discussion ladies and gentlmen and I shall pray for you all!

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

how does the gunmen represent Satan? We all have our own minds we all know what is right and wrong...Until you have felt the holy spirit inside you, you will have a hard time believeing in Christianity....On the otherhand, The bible has been proven more times to be TRUE then false...and it has been proven over science (and evolution) and even over atheist.. (how do i know) Because I have Family who researches the Bible exstensivly (on bothsides of the coin)

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In my analogy, the gunman represents Satan, the gun represents Hell, and the victim represents somebody who does not know how to believe that 2 + 2 = 5 or even that he is supposed to even though some ancient book said he better believe it or else.

How has the Bible been proven to be true more times than false? It contradicts itself all over the place, it says Earth is 6,000 years old, says the sun "stopped", gives a story that contradicts evolution (which is an extremely well supported theory), talks about going to a high place and seeing all of the kingdoms of the Earth, and claims lots of other things that we now know don't fit into scientific facts. How do you think the Bible has been proven over science?

i have to say one thing on this post and i most likely wont even check to see what people say but if jesus is real and doesnt give you forgiveness after you die, he is the worst of all of us

even after getting tortured you would like you said ask for forgiveness, jesus would not be like no

He would make you prove you love him not shut you away

wht happens when you have a bad person but just is to illiterate to realize jesus while he is alive and just dies all of a sudden?

god will not just b like no he would make him prove it

There is no Hell. It's a bad joke told to scare people.
But if a place where sinners are eternally tortured exist than God isn't worth spitting on. But thank God, such a place does not exist.

it saddened me to see so many souls lost and confused..i'll pray for all who need Jesus..amen

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

trust me ExoByte do your research..Studies have proven otherwise, the bible holds true..if you dont want to believe it that is your choice and I respect that, I know what I believe in is true and i will stick with that

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Umm, how exactly did you find proof of anything from the bible? I mean they can't even prove that Jesus existed... Anyway, the book looks more like a really badly written fairy tale, I prefer Lord of the rings. I can also prove the Norse gods exist, but you'll only understand when you feel it you know... you have to really feel it. Or you could just die in an honourable battle and ask the gods themselves.

interesting, you say NEED Jesus..

In a hypothetical, if somehow Jesus was proven to be false, all of Christianity was somehow proven to be false, what would you do?

It seems to be you NEED to believe in something higher to cope with your existence. I admit existence isn't always great but i accept it, i don't NEED to believe in some greater place, not to commit suicide in this one.

So if right now all religions are proven false what would you do? I have asked some Christian friends, honestly they said they would curl up and die or take their own life because they couldn't cope with this being it and they fear death too much, what about you?

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Originally Posted by joey11223

interesting, you say NEED Jesus..

In a hypothetical, if somehow Jesus was proven to be false, all of Christianity was somehow proven to be false, what would you do?

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That's the problem with hypotheticals.

Hey, hypothetically, if you found out you were actually a box jellyfish, what would you do? Seriously, think about it. ;)

People have been trying to prove Jesus false for 2000 years, and nobody has succeeded yet. In fact, lots of people have become Christians through the process. Sorry if I'm straying off-topic.

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

it saddened me to see so many souls lost and confused..i'll pray for all who need Jesus..amen

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What is sad is that a few totally misguided mideval prists ( totally misguided as in crusaders, and inquisitioners ) invented the completely unchristian concept of Hell as a place of eternal torture, and that to this day people follow these twisted notion as if it is part of Jesus's message.

Oops sorry I may have been a bit harsh in my comments :p
It's just that I'm sure this Hell thing is a misinterpretation of Jesus's message. And I am sure that if God exists and Jesus was his Messiah, then they will agree with me in saying that no one will be tormented eternally for committing sins.

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Originally Posted by SilverZero

People have been trying to prove Jesus false for 2000 years, and nobody has succeeded yet. In fact, lots of people have become Christians through the process. Sorry if I'm straying off-topic.

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If you can't disprove him, can you prove him? Try it, maby you'll become atheist in the process.

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Originally Posted by SilverZero

That's the problem with hypotheticals.

Hey, hypothetically, if you found out you were actually a box jellyfish, what would you do? Seriously, think about it. ;)

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Poor example, how exactly would that work at all? That really does make no sense. So i am actually a box jellyfish dreaming, or what? I really don't understand that one, maybe a different one??

When not asked to debate I try to only provide iformation or ask for information myself.

I just want to show you how people who are not christian feel about you, by showing you how we percieve you, through how you percieve others.

Please fastforward 50 seconds or so, and then stop about 5 minutes and 20ish seconds if you do not wish to be offended by statements of how your religion is false. If you want the fully intended purpose then listen to the whole thing however.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ

wow, fast moving thread.

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

it saddened me to see so many souls lost and confused..i'll pray for all who need Jesus..amen

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:), please dont worry about us, if anything it should be us worrying about you ;). If im to admit the truth, i feel sorry for you, and i dont mean this in a sarcastic way.. Honestly you're the one who is lost, and for a human to waste their life worrying like you do.. well its just a shame, I wish you all the best.

I feel, and so does wolf, that we don't waste our life worrying but that yes, we do put in a little extra time worrying for all of you guys.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

I feel, and so does wolf, that we don't waste our life worrying but that yes, we do put in a little extra time worrying for all of you guys.

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What really puzzles me about religious people is their seeming inability to recognize the correlation between their religion and the obsolete ones of the past.

Don't you see that there were people who believed in Norse mythology, Greek mythology, Thor, Freya, and Odin just as much as you believe in your God? And yet you consider these religions laughable, children's stories about giant men with magic hammers who would come to save the ancients from a bump in the night.

Your religion is the latest in a long line. I'm not saying it isn't correct, I'm just asking how you can ignore such parallels - there really does seem to exist 'bubbles of delusion', as Sandform's video suggests.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

we do put in a little extra time worrying for all of you guys.

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And I for you guys at this moment in time.

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Originally Posted by Bonsay

If you can't disprove him, can you prove him? Try it, maby you'll become atheist in the process.

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Yes, but it's been done. Read the works of Josephus.

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Originally Posted by SilverZero

Yes, but it's been done. Read the works of Josephus.

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Well if you call words like that proof, then why don't you read the internets. There are many many words which are also supported by logic (if you have it) devoted to showing all the jesuses like horus, mithra, dyonisius,.. before jesus himself. Oh yeah, but it has been also proven that the devil put those there, oh bummer. If I don't hold the bible as proof, I won't hold some Josephus' texts either.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

Please fastforward 50 seconds or so, and then stop about 5 minutes and 20ish seconds if you do not wish to be offended by statements of how your religion is false. If you want the fully intended purpose then listen to the whole thing however.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ

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That is a really good illustration of how religion works.

I believe in a very different hell than the other Christians on this thread. I really think it's horrible to tell someone that they'll be sent to hell simply for not believing in christianity. What about those who never heard about Jesus, hell, or any of it? Would God really condem them?

On anouther note, as ExoByte said earlier, there's no debate as to wether Jesus of Nazareth existed, it's wether he was the son of God that's the question.

I'm sorry. This might be a little off-topic the off-topic discussion. But why recomend this book? It seems to me to be trying to scare people into believing. I don't really like that idea...

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Originally Posted by Crumbs

I'm sorry. This might be a little off-topic the off-topic discussion. But why recomend this book? It seems to me to be trying to scare people into believing. I don't really like that idea...

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I think the book suggestion was more for Christians and believers rather than trying to convert anyone because thats pretty much futile on this forum.

And I read in that 23 minutes book I mentioned before a thing I'd like to add. It said that Christians are just trying to warn people about hell like they would warn you if you were in a hotel that is on fire. It may inconvenience you now but in the long term it will save you. Don't flame me, those comments aren't mine and I know there are some flaws in the logic.

Just thought I would toss this out there, for all who are interested.. I talked to my step mom tonight and she gave me a title of an interesting book called "Case For Christ"

Its about a Yale University professor set out to prove that Jesus never exsisted...In the years of his studies he ended up not being able to prove his point, but instead became a Christian himself..

Case for Christ

Author: Lee Strollble (spelling?)

All I know is that I believe in hell and I am going to at least warn you guys about it. Seriously, you all should read the bible, you might find it convincing.

religion aside... a little quote i made up 2 minutes ago and wrote down...

"Life wasnt made for Delight...It was made for Insight"--Dj Jones (spiritofthewolf)

Wow super profound.

=) I know I don't want to debate anymore, but is it oke if I just go into your threads and act like Joey? He can bring the soda, I'll bring the cups.

But I think instead of debating from now on i'm just going to stop in with a LOL.

Just, while you are gathering insite, don't forget to have a little fun.:D

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

Just thought I would toss this out there, for all who are interested.. I talked to my step mom tonight and she gave me a title of an interesting book called "Case For Christ"

Its about a Yale University professor set out to prove that Jesus never exsisted...In the years of his studies he ended up not being able to prove his point, but instead became a Christian himself..

Case for Christ

Author: Lee Strollble (spelling?)

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Lee Strobel wrote two books: The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith. I haven't read either, but I hear they're very compelling.

I've gotta read more religious books that aren't the bible.

why does God make all the evidence point to us that he does not exist-And then punish us if we believe what is so obvious?


That's just stupid.


go find something else to put meaning in your life, cus "god" is getting old.

Joeys 48hr sleepover which turned into roughly an 80hr sleepover is over! I have some soda left!!:D

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

why does God make all the evidence point to us that he does not exist-And then punish us if we believe what is so obvious?

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That is the question that needs to be asked.

A Divine Revelation Of Hades....

Ladies and Gentlemen I am a true believer in the Olympus and the LORD Zeus.. But after reading a book yesterday in only a few hours my faith in Zeus grew 10 times than what it was...

I dont know if any of you have heard of the book called "The Odyssey" by Homer ?

It is about Ulysses himself and the first hand experience he had...In this true book Hercules meets Ulysses in Hades and shows him the Tartarus.


I know there is alot of people that doubt that exsistence of Zeus because they do not believe what he did is possible..You can take the Myths literally or you can take it in whatever way you want, but in the end It is about how much FAITH you have in the Olympus gods.. and I am telling all non believers to repent from your sins and ask Zeus for forgiveness and for him to come into your life...


In the book Stated above Hades states "In Hell you still have all your senses..You can smell, touch, taste,feel, and hear all" Imagine being torturned for an eternity and wanting so badly even the smallest drink of water, but not being able to have a sip...


I PRAY FOR ALL THOSE WHO HAVE YET TO FIND ZEUS AND FOR ALL THOSE WHO NEED HIM!!"


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I wanted to illustrate the argument of thegnome54 (which has received answers yet... I really await them.)
Say I'm a non-believer. You threaten me of eternal damnation for a non-crime because I don't believe in YOUR god. (I believe in the historical existence of Jesus, and I believe that what he taught was good. I doubt the divine origine.).
Just after that, a muslim threatens me of eternal damnation because I don't believe in Allah. Then an Hindu threatens me with Naraka, or a scientologist with whatever Xenuish thing, or a pastafarian threatens me of eternal suffering in boiling tomato sauce because I don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Because all thoses choices are incompatibles, I must choose carefully between FAITH in the christian god, FAITH in the hindus gods, FAITH in the FSM... but deciding rationnaly between different Faiths is an oxymoron.

Basically, you've made the Pascal's Wager. I invite you to read this wikipedia page to see critics to this argument.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

And how could you worship something that knowingly set up existence in such a way that most humans will be severely tortured for eternity? Something that does that is not worthy of worship.

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Indeed. Took the words right out of my mouth.

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Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

I never really thought about the bible as a book...

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Wow....

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Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

Until you have felt the holy spirit inside you

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Sounds oddly sexual.


I don't agree. I thought God loved the world. The whole WORLD, and yet, he damns those he supposedly "loves" to eternal suffering. Isn't he soo loving?

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Originally Posted by SilverZero

Lee Strobel wrote two books: The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith. I haven't read either, but I hear they're very compelling.

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No, they're really not. A good Christian friend of mine bought me The Case for Christ, and then bought me The Case For Faith later. The Case For Christ has some good arguments and information; honestly the most compelling thing was that the tomb was proven to be empty (naughty disciples moving bodies maybe??) but nothing we (non-Christians) haven't heard before. But The Case for Faith was terrible and had nothing compelling in it at all.

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Originally Posted by Needcatscan

No, they're really not. A good Christian friend of mine bought me The Case for Christ, and then bought me The Case For Faith later. The Case For Christ has some good arguments and information; honestly the most compelling thing was that the tomb was proven to be empty (naughty disciples moving bodies maybe??) but nothing we (non-Christians) haven't heard before. But The Case for Faith was terrible and had nothing compelling in it at all.

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The most compelling argument is either the banana or the peanut butter argument. If you know those arguments, you have everything you need.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw5...elated&search=

The one with the banana is a spoof. It just proves that we are banana picking monkeys, perfectly evolved to handle the banana.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

The one with the banana is a spoof. It just proves that we are banana picking monkeys, perfectly evolved to handle the banana.

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What I think is so hilarious about it is that it proves evolution. Bananas don't grow that way in the wild. They are the way in the market place because farmers bred them to be that way. Pure and simple evolution.

Oh, really? I've never picked a wild banana.

How does that prove evolution? I thought evo. was supposed to be all-natural.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Oh, really? I've never picked a wild banana.

How does that prove evolution? I thought evo. was supposed to be all-natural.

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Humans and human ancestors made lots of decisions that caused the evolution of humans up to this point to go the way it did. The banana manipulation is like that, except the farmers have knowledge that they are evolving the bananas. I see humans as part of nature to the extent that our forcing of evolution is a process in nature. Even if it's forced evolution, it's still evolution. I'm not talking about genetic engineering. I'm just talking about breeding and selecting. Some people say that God was behind and in control of evolution. If I found out that is the case, I wouldn't see the need to find a new word for the process.

The blind evolution of animals works the same way, except there is not awareness of the evolution. Animals are selective about their mates, and the decisions that result from that selectivity result in the course of the evolution of the species. The animals are selecting and causing certain genes to be more prevalent than others in the gene pool.

Even humans are selective about their mates. I think its funny that people criticize humanity for being obsessed with the attractive women. "Attractive" women have traits that are best for child bearing (curves). It is seen with almost every other animal. Female malards fly with a group of males until all the males except 1 get tired and leave. The strongest male gets to mate.

In a sense of your theory of evolution we have almost completely evolved the dog. They are probably the most selectively bred animal on the planet, yet a chiwawa and a pitbull are the same species and can mate. Crazy stuff.

I wonder if many Christians know how the bible was created and at wich century! Do you know the roots of your religion?

Also the Nag Hammadi scriptures shine an interesting light on the bible in my personal opinion.

If you dont know then google it, that info is all around the net.

I personally dont believe in a hell or heaven as the bible tells us...imagine your kids going to hell then and you go to heaven, is your heaven then still a heaven for you? Could it? Unless god would erase your memory that you have kids in hell.

Fuck it. It's all abuot ME!!!!! :takethatfoo:

If the Christian God is an all powerful and loving creator, then why did he create Satan? Hell just doesn't make any sense, you simply have to think about your dumb religion for half a second. Your God can't make mistakes, he isn't human. He's supposed to be perfect. By preaching about hell, you are effectively blaspheming your pure ideal of God, without exception.

What you need to realise is that your religion, along with Islam is one of the only two evangelising religions in the world. Your religion is among a tiny minority which believes that it is necessary to convert others. This is the only reason Christianity is so widespread.

Hell and heaven are clearly the epitomes of a stick and a carrot, the two purest tools one can use to motivate others... it's just so damn obvious.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Oh, really? I've never picked a wild banana.

How does that prove evolution? I thought evo. was supposed to be all-natural.

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No way. It just has been natural. Actually, unnatural doens't even Exist if there weren't any humans. Pretty silly.

But anyhow. Getting some identical groups of mice, but in different environments to change in a way over the generations, so that they (they 2 groups) can no longer be called the same species, proves evolution, in a lab or outside of it.

Actually, (micro/medium)evolution has already been proven. How Christians can disprove macro-evolution, while it is part of exactly the same process just over more time, is just amazingly silly.

They can't disprove evolution. Maybe with their logic they can, but evolution is a fact.

You see, this is why I like you the best, you don't provoke any violence.
All heil the Tooth fairy, your new God!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xg9BVlm-3cc&watch_response

Lol also...You need a submissive ~Jesus~!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?watch_response=&v=U3aegrjPVWc

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Originally Posted by Sandform

You see, this is why I like you the best, you don't provoke any violence.
All heil the Tooth fairy, your new God!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xg9BVlm-3cc&watch_response

Lol also...You need a submissive ~Jesus~!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?watch_response=&v=U3aegrjPVWc

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Haha, those videos are hilarious! :D

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Originally Posted by Xei

If the Christian God is an all powerful and loving creator, then why did he create Satan? Hell just doesn't make any sense, you simply have to think about your dumb religion for half a second. Your God can't make mistakes, he isn't human. He's supposed to be perfect. By preaching about hell, you are effectively blaspheming your pure ideal of God, without exception.

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You simply don't understand who God is to make this argument.

God created the angels with the same free will He created humans. The angels, though, were created in His presence, knowing Him on a much higher level. Satan (Lucifer) was God's Number-One angel, the leader of the music in Heaven. For him to rebel, even when he knew God better than all other created beings, made him the primary embodiment of rebellion.

The other aspect of this is that you don't understand how God created all of us with the will to choose Him or to choose to reject Him. His hope is that we would all embrace Him, but He knew all along that some would reject Him. Still, He loved enough to create those who wouldn't love Him back.

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Originally Posted by SilverZero

You simply don't understand who God is to make this argument.

God created the angels with the same free will He created humans. The angels, though, were created in His presence, knowing Him on a much higher level. Satan (Lucifer) was God's Number-One angel, the leader of the music in Heaven. For him to rebel, even when he knew God better than all other created beings, made him the primary embodiment of rebellion.

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And you believe this?

Lol loves them enough to send them to Hell =)

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Originally Posted by SilverZero

You simply don't understand who God is to make this argument.

God created the angels with the same free will He created humans. The angels, though, were created in His presence, knowing Him on a much higher level. Satan (Lucifer) was God's Number-One angel, the leader of the music in Heaven. For him to rebel, even when he knew God better than all other created beings, made him the primary embodiment of rebellion.

The other aspect of this is that you don't understand how God created all of us with the will to choose Him or to choose to reject Him. His hope is that we would all embrace Him, but He knew all along that some would reject Him. Still, He loved enough to create those who wouldn't love Him back.

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What you don't understand is that you're misinterpreting the will of Allah as the will of the false god YHWH.

Repent now.

The 'leader of music in heaven'..?

Why am I strongly reminded at this point of Greek myths?

Oh wait, I remember. -_-

Anyway. If I'd had God's opportunity, I'd've created an infinite, beautiful, everlasting utopia. God seems like a bit of a dumbass to me to have opted for this alternative.

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Originally Posted by Xei

The 'leader of music in heaven'..?

Why am I strongly reminded at this point of Greek myths?

Oh wait, I remember. -_-

Anyway. If I'd had God's opportunity, I'd've created an infinite, beautiful, everlasting utopia. God seems like a bit of a dumbass to me to have opted for this alternative.

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Lol

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Originally Posted by SilverZero

Still, He loved enough to create those who wouldn't love Him back.

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So he loved us enough to create us and then condemn us to eternal turture. Sorry but that makes god look like some mental patient. Surely non-existance is better then eternal turture. Unless I'm not "thinking from gods perspective" and seeing it completely wrong, maby eternal torture is just what I needed... (Even thought that's impossible, because I never existed)

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Originally Posted by wannywan

What you don't understand is that you're misinterpreting the will of Allah as the will of the false god YHWH.

Repent now.

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Exactly. Praise Allah, the true god. We have the REAL magic book, it's better than Their magic book. Our guy-in-the-sky is so far more true, because it says so in the Qu'ran. It's perfect, scientific proof. Right.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Exactly. Praise Allah, the true god. We have the REAL magic book, it's better than Their magic book. Our guy-in-the-sky is so far more true, because it says so in the Qu'ran. It's perfect, scientific proof. Right.

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I've actually discovered the truth just there now, the true deity is...


ZEUS!

How could I have been blind for so long?

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Originally Posted by wannywan

I've actually discovered the truth just there now, the true deity is...


ZEUS!

How could I have been blind for so long?

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Because when Pandora opened her box and let out evil, the evil spirits tried to fool you! They don't want you to be happy. Thankfully you've found Zues and he will bless you, and not have to smite you with his mighty thunder bolt.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

Because when Pandora opened her box and let out evil, the evil spirits tried to fool you! They don't want you to be happy. Thankfully you've found Zues and he will bless you, and not have to smite you with his mighty thunder bolt.

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You are almost right, you have almost found the ONLY TRUE RELIGION!

It are evil souls that mislead us, but not Pandora's! But ALIEN souls! The evil lord Xenu has trapped all those alien souls on earth, and they haunt us till this day. Scientology is the truth!!!!

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Originally Posted by Neruo

You are almost right, you have almost found the ONLY TRUE RELIGION!

It are evil souls that mislead us, but not Pandora's! But ALIEN souls! The evil lord Xenu has trapped all those alien souls on earth, and they haunt us till this day. Scientology is the truth!!!!

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Ah Neruo thank you for showing me the WAY, how could I have been so blind? Of course, dear Zeus!, oops I mean, L. Ron Hubbard, I can't believe how misguided I was.

Just felt like saying, although perhaps a little late:

I'm not afraid for myself, or for everybody else because I trust in God's love.

God, or however you call him/her/it/them, or whatever he is, is -unconditionally- loving. Hes there for everybody, for we're all 'children' of God. Hes above being worshipped, and he does not want to imbue us with fear.

Hell is simply a state of being where you, yourself, fill yourself with hatred, anger and mistrust. You can throw yourself in there and get yourself out of it.

Eternal suffering sounds silly, as is eternal damnation. God is wisdom, he knows that we couldnt possibly know the absolute truth and that there is nothing to even -forgive- us for.

I'm not an atheist, but stuff like this makes me sad regardlessly. Religion and spirituality should be about love and trust. Always. It should always be something positive. There should be no judgement but our own. If one wishes to believe in something, as long as it doesnt involve hurting others, they have the right to do so without being judged. No religion is better than the other one. Its about making your life, and the life of others, happier and richer. :)

Thats all =P

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Originally Posted by Lucius

Just felt like saying, although perhaps a little late:

I'm not afraid for myself, or for everybody else because I trust in God's love.

God, or however you call him/her/it/them, or whatever he is, is -unconditionally- loving. Hes there for everybody, for we're all 'children' of God. Hes above being worshipped, and he does not want to imbue us with fear.

Hell is simply a state of being where you, yourself, fill yourself with hatred, anger and mistrust. You can throw yourself in there and get yourself out of it.

Eternal suffering sounds silly, as is eternal damnation. God is wisdom, he knows that we couldnt possibly know the absolute truth and that there is nothing to even -forgive- us for.

I'm not an atheist, but stuff like this makes me sad regardlessly. Religion and spirituality should be about love and trust. Always. It should always be something positive. There should be no judgement but our own. If one wishes to believe in something, as long as it doesnt involve hurting others, they have the right to do so without being judged. No religion is better than the other one. Its about making your life, and the life of others, happier and richer. :)

Thats all =P

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I appreciate your sentiment, its just that all religions are hurting the people of the world...even besides the fact it keeps us from unification under like minded beneficial idea.

Well i'm afraid religion is hurting people (athiests too), all over the world.
An example of how athiesm is getting hurt, although it is by no means the extent of damage, is that athiest aren't allowed to hold public office in up to seven states (that among them Texas, the state I reside in)
If you are an athiest boy you can't be a member of the boy scouts...I actually was a boy scout, but I never talked about my religion, I eventualy stopped, because my parents didn't have time to take me to meetings anymore, besides, im disqualified from boy scouts anyway, reguardless of the fact i'm atheist.
Hell, we can't even TESTIFY in court in certain states...I suppose that is about the fact that the oath to the bible would be a pointless endeavor on the court systems part to keep us from lieing.

AND THE BIGGEST reason religion is hurting us is this little tid-bit from George Bush sr.

"no I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots, this is one nation under God."

Religious people piss me off when they make statements like that. What right do you have to judge me? I don't judge you...and i'm sure religious people would "say" they don't judge me, but that just isn't true, they've created a God who can "judge" me for them, so they can say when people are the way they don't like, instead of saying, fuckin "<insert word>" they can say, you'll stand before god on judgment day.

and before you say something like "you do too judge me", i'm going to stop you right there, judging a person is not the same as making an observation, I have never had the thought, belief, or notion that anyone should ever be denied rights, or harmed in anyway simple because of their beliefs, most religions on the otherhand would have me sent to hell for all eternity, reguardless of the fact that I only want whatever is best for mankind.

Sand,

You're right, I'm sorry. I didnt mean to paint religion as something bright and pretty, because yes, quite often, it isn't. Religion does hurt people, -quite- a lot. And it does bother me, I just dont always express it. When people are denied their rights to express themselves religiously, sexually or any way else (again as long as it doesnt involve man-slaughter and the such) this is a bad thing that saddens me greatly and I know it saddens 'God'. However, I dont believe God is a person that performs miracles. Hes not perfect, he can't change the world, only we can, in theory (practically its nearly impossible)

I guess what I was trying to say is that religion -should- be, as it probably was intended by figures such as Jezus (the person, whether he was send by god or not), a tool to spread love, kindness, joy and compassion. Of course, its not that for many people anymore but I know that there are plenty of people out there, christian and otherwise, that still believe in this. And yes, you can easily spread love and kindness without religion.

So yes, if you are you just doing your best, thats all you can do. I know you'll never be judged for that in the eyes of any God. None of us will. If people say otherwise, thats their choice, not God's. :)

I agree totally. Religion should be spread the love =-)

I know I am late to your discussion but I just want to say....

Hellfire is unscriptural, I can show you LOTS of proof.

I read this book, complete rubbish.

And yes, hellfire doesn't exist.

I do believe in hell, just very very differently than what this book portrays, and I base my opinion scripturally.