*for christians only* It's time to regroup guys those atheists are killing us.

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Originally Posted by RooJ

I can only hope that other religious people on this board dont have such an unhealthy outlook as yourself.

As for the rest of your point im afraid it carries little weight in this discussion. Your argument is a non sequitur, your inability to comprehend how the universe could exist without a creator doesn't actually lead to the conclusion that there must be a god, even if you would like it to. Its a logical fallacy to assume that because you personally find the universe too amazing to exist without a designer, a designer must exist.



When you've been told what to think for long enough you become incapable of actually logically analysing what you believe yourself and coming to a conclusion through that. [/ad hominem]

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You may disagree with my outlook on humanity, but that is your ego talking. Until you accept the fact that we deserve hell, you'll never understand the purpose of Christ. On the surface, many people might think I'm a "good" person, but only I know how self-centered and prideful I can be. Let me ask you this again. Do you really think you deserve perfect love? Are you "good" enough for God's love? If you think you are, you are certainly mistaken. Nobody is good enough for God. He is perfect. Humans are so imperfect, whether it be the rapist or a peace corps volunteer. Surely, if you can name a single person who deserves God's perfect love, I'll revoke my statement that humans are scum. We are desperate for a savior.

"When you've been told what to think for long enough you become incapable of actually logically analysing what you believe yourself and coming to a conclusion through that."

This I have to address. Your assumption here is that I've never questioned my beliefs regarding God. This is untrue. I went through a two-year period where atheism sounded very convincing and at one point had considered myself an agnostic. The truth is, I realized I didn't need any more philosophical or ontological proof that there was a God. I found my existence as a conscious being to be more than adequate proof that a higher power created me. I did not say, the universe exists, therefore God exists. Rather, I exist, therefore God exists. The chances of me existing are one in infinity. As an atheist (if that's what you are), you would have to agree with this. Everything that happens in the present is a result of a past causal chain (e.g. you exist because your parents conceived you, they exist because their parents conceived them, etc.) If the universal is eternal (i.e. no God), then the causal chain in the past is infinite, since there is no 'beginning' with God as the foundation. Thus, an infinite amount of events had to go perfectly right in order to yield you as an existing person. So the chances of being born are one in infinity. Only infinite power could bypass such absurdly small odds. I exist, therefore God exists.

And what do you make of the unifying 'self' lodged in this body? I will repeat what I have already said. The brain is simply a sporadic series of cause-and-effect. Where is the unifying self in all of that? It is the spirit, timeless and unconditioned. Read again the excerpt from A New Earth that I posted and ask yourself if it makes sense to you. If it's at least plausible, then there's a possibility that you will never die. I'd actually recommend picking up a copy of Tolle's book. It'll change your life.

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Originally Posted by ninja pirate

Y. Until you accept the fact that we deserve hell, you'll never understand the purpose of Christ. On the surface, many people might think I'm a "good" person, but only I know how self-centered and prideful I can be. Let me ask you this again. Do you really think you deserve perfect love? Are you "good" enough for God's love? If you think you are, you are certainly mistaken. Nobody is good enough for God. He is perfect. Humans are so imperfect, whether it be the rapist or a peace corps volunteer. Surely, if you can name a single person who deserves God's perfect love, I'll revoke my statement that humans are scum. We are desperate for a savior.

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Haha. It's like you took Christianity, and turned it into an SM-game.

Spank me Jesus! I have been a naughty, naughty boy!

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Originally Posted by Neruo

HAHAHA. Only now I see that I have stumbled upon the most silly use of emoticons ever.

Strange that Atheists, who are wrong, exist throughout ALL of history, while Christians, who are Totally Right, exist only in areas where it has spread after it's invention.

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"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." John 1:1-3

Jesus is eternal just like the Father. What does this mean exactly? Hard to tell. But perhaps those who were repenting prior to Christ's birth could have been considered 'Christians' (even though Jesus had not yet been physically born). This is all speculation. Heaven knows, I don't have all the answers (and no one does!).

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Haha. It's like you took Christianity, and turned it into an SM-game.

Spank me Jesus! I have been a naughty, naughty boy!

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When you're ready to grow up and address my posts as an intellectual rather than a child, I'm all ears.

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Originally Posted by ninja pirate

Until you accept the fact that we deserve hell, you'll never understand the purpose of Christ.

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Speak for yourself, please. I do not deserve hell. Thankfully, since there is no such thing, I'm not terribly worried about it.

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Let me ask you this again. Do you really think you deserve perfect love?

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Yes

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Are you "good" enough for God's love? If you think you are, you are certainly mistaken.

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I agree. It would be a mistake for me to think I am good enough for the love of someone who doesn't exist.

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Humans are so imperfect, whether it be the rapist or a peace corps volunteer.

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You make it sound like you think these are equally imperfect. No point in peace and love, I guess.

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We are desperate for a savior.

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I'll do perfectly fine without, thank you. Many of us don't feel this desperation you speak of.

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I found my existence as a conscious being to be more than adequate proof that a higher power created me.

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Makes me wonder if God ever had this same thought.

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The chances of me existing are one in infinity. As an atheist (if that's what you are), you would have to agree with this.

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Actually no. the chances of you existing are one in one, as evidenced by the fact that you are here.

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Thus, an infinite amount of events had to go perfectly right in order to yield you as an existing person. So the chances of being born are one in infinity. Only infinite power could bypass such absurdly small odds.

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But there are an infinite number of things that don't exist. The odds of something existing, by this logic, is infinity/infinity... in otherwords, one.

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Originally Posted by ninja pirate

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." John 1:1-3

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You might as well used an Extract from the Qu'ran. You really think I am going to care about what a fictional book says?

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And then the 'blabla, grow up'. Hah. Irony. Not like you are clearly going through a very un-original childish emo/angst/depressed period. Even your avatar is emo. Lets cry all day how we are unworthy of god. Wow, great idea.

Have fun! :D

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Originally Posted by skysaw

Speak for yourself, please. I do not deserve hell. Thankfully, since there is no such thing, I'm not terribly worried about it.


Yes

I agree. It would be a mistake for me to think I am good enough for the love of someone who doesn't exist.


You make it sound like you think these are equally imperfect. No point in peace and love, I guess.


I'll do perfectly fine without, thank you. Many of us don't feel this desperation you speak of.


Makes me wonder if God ever had this same thought.


Actually no. the chances of you existing are one in one, as evidenced by the fact that you are here.


But there are an infinite number of things that don't exist. The odds of something existing, by this logic, is infinity/infinity... in otherwords, one.

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"Speak for yourself, please. I do not deserve hell."

You must then be perfect since it is only through perfection that we deserve God.

"You make it sound like you think these are equally imperfect. No point in peace and love, I guess."

The passage was simply to reiterate the fact that humans are imperfect. How imperfect are we exactly? Well, I'd say that's difficult to measure, and I certainly was not equating any two imperfections.

"Makes me wonder if God ever had this same thought."

Imagine you are God. You have always existed. You know everything. It is absurd to suggest that God wonders if he had a maker, since he is eternal.

"Actually no. the chances of you existing are one in one, as evidenced by the fact that you are here. "

What is your gender? Male? Female? What are the odds that you would be male or female? Most people would agree that it's one in two, but by your logic (since you already are either a male or a female), the odds of being that specific gender are one in one. This is obviously wrong.

"But there are an infinite number of things that don't exist. The odds of something existing, by this logic, is infinity/infinity... in otherwords, one."

Are there an infinite amount of things that don't exist? Can you name one, please? Actually, can you name all infinity? Of course, you can't. You can't name a single thing that does not exist, because if we're speculating about a non-existent, then we are talking about nothing! There are not an infinite amount of things that don't exist. There is nothing that does not exist, which is necessarily true by the definition of non-existence.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

You might as well used an Extract from the Qu'ran. You really think I am going to care about what a fictional book says?

-

And then the 'blabla, grow up'. Hah. Irony. Not like you are clearly going through a very un-original childish emo/angst/depressed period. Even your avatar is emo. Lets cry all day how we are unworthy of god. Wow, great idea.

Have fun! :D

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"You might as well used an Extract from the Qu'ran. You really think I am going to care about what a fictional book says?"

If Jesus was begotten by God (i.e. shares the same nature as God) then he is also eternal. My apologies, you don't need a Bible verse to draw that conclusion.

"And then the 'blabla, grow up'. Hah. Irony. Not like you are clearly going through a very un-original childish emo/angst/depressed period. Even your avatar is emo. Lets cry all day how we are unworthy of god. Wow, great idea."

You've assumed here that you know a lot of things about my personality, when, in fact, you don't. I am far from depressed, and I'm not too sure what being 'emo' would entail. As far as my avatar goes, it probably couldn't be further from the 'emo' classification. It's a famous musician who's been around for nearly 50 years. Bob Dylan, anyone?

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Originally Posted by ninja pirate

"Speak for yourself, please. I do not deserve hell."

You must then be perfect since it is only through perfection that we deserve God.

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In your world, perhaps. But there is certainly no logical problems here if we simply take away God. I am not "perfect," but then I don't need to be. Few people would deserve the Christian description of hell.

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"Makes me wonder if God ever had this same thought."

Imagine you are God. You have always existed. You know everything. It is absurd to suggest that God wonders if he had a maker, since he is eternal.

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I find it no more absurd than a human wondering if he had a maker. Your earlier logic was "I exist... therefore there must be God!" God should then say "I exist... therefore there must be a higher God!" If the logic is valid on one level, it should be valid on all levels, or it should be thrown away outright.

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"Actually no. the chances of you existing are one in one, as evidenced by the fact that you are here. "

What is your gender? Male? Female? What are the odds that you would be male or female? Most people would agree that it's one in two, but by your logic (since you already are either a male or a female), the odds of being that specific gender are one in one. This is obviously wrong.

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I am male. If my gender were on the betting boards at Vegas, they would assign the odds at 100%. There is no mystery, I am already defined.

Odds only come into play about things that you don't currently know. You can say early in the morning that the odds of rain are 30%, but when it starts coming down, you're going to have to revise that to 100%.

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Are there an infinite amount of things that don't exist? Can you name one, please?

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Well, I suppose I could go the obvious route and just say "God," but I'm guessing that won't quite do the trick here. Obviously one can't say with certainty that something specific doesn't exist, but your counter to this seems to be to suggest that every possible thing that can exist, does exist. But this is curious... if that were true, than it's quite obvious that your chance to exist becomes 100%! So please, define this further so I can see what you're trying to say. If you deny that there are things that don't exist, you must agree that everything MUST exist.

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Originally Posted by skysaw

In your world, perhaps. But there is certainly no logical problems here if we simply take away God. I am not "perfect," but then I don't need to be. Few people would deserve the Christian description of hell.


I find it no more absurd than a human wondering if he had a maker. Your earlier logic was "I exist... therefore there must be God!" God should then say "I exist... therefore there must be a higher God!" If the logic is valid on one level, it should be valid on all levels, or it should be thrown away outright.


I am male. If my gender were on the betting boards at Vegas, they would assign the odds at 100%. There is no mystery, I am already defined.



Well, I suppose I could go the obvious route and just say "God," but I'm guessing that won't quite do the trick here. Obviously one can't say with certainty that something specific doesn't exist, but your counter to this seems to be to suggest that every possible thing that can exist, does exist. But this is curious... if that were true, than it's quite obvious that your chance to exist becomes 100%! So please, define this further so I can see what you're trying to say. If you deny that there are things that don't exist, you must agree that everything MUST exist.

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"In your world, perhaps. But there is certainly no logical problems here if we simply take away God. I am not "perfect," but then I don't need to be. Few people would deserve the Christian description of hell."

The difference of opinion here is not going to be settled. I've already spoken my mind on this matter.

"I find it no more absurd than a human wondering if he had a maker. Your earlier logic was "I exist... therefore there must be God!" God should then say "I exist... therefore there must be a higher God!" If the logic is valid on one level, it should be valid on all levels, or it should be thrown away outright."

Let me then rephrase. I popped into existence out of nothing, therefore God exists. Certainly, God could not use this logic, given that he has always existed.

"Odds only come into play about things that you don't currently know. You can say early in the morning that the odds of rain are 30%, but when it starts coming down, you're going to have to revise that to 100%."

There are three marbles in a bag, each a different color. One is red, the other is blue, and the third is green. The odds of you pulling a red marble out of the bag are one in three. Let's say you actually do pull out a red marble. Do you suddenly believe the odds of pulling that marble were one? Of course not. Regardless of which marble was pulled, the odds of pulling that particular marble remain one in three. So odds do not only come into play about things we don't know. I know very well that I pulled a red marble, but the probability of making such a pull still remains.

"Obviously one can't say with certainty that something specific doesn't exist, but your counter to this seems to be to suggest that every possible thing that can exist, does exist. But this is curious... if that were true, than it's quite obvious that your chance to exist becomes 100%!"

Actually, all I have said here is this: everything that does exist, does exist and everything that does not exist, does not exist. And as I have previously illustrated, something's existence is not indicative of a one in one probability.

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Originally Posted by ninja pirate

"Let me then rephrase. I popped into existence out of nothing, therefore God exists. Certainly, God could not use this logic, given that he has always existed.

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Well I think this is certainly more convincing... a definite improvement. I wonder though, are you certain you have not always existed? Can you remember a time when you didn't? And could God be certain he always existed?

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"Odds only come into play about things that you don't currently know. You can say early in the morning that the odds of rain are 30%, but when it starts coming down, you're going to have to revise that to 100%."

There are three marbles in a bag, each a different color. One is red, the other is blue, and the third is green. The odds of you pulling a red marble out of the bag are one in three. Let's say you actually do pull out a red marble. Do you suddenly believe the odds of pulling that marble were one?

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"Were" - no, "are" - yes. The odds that you have pulled the red marble are 100%. You can't look at it in your hand and still tell yourself "there's a one-in-three chance that this marble is red."

There is also the sticky issue of determinism, if you buy into it. If you were destined to pick that marble, then the odds always were 100%.

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Originally Posted by skysaw

Well I think this is certainly more convincing... a definite improvement. I wonder though, are you certain you have not always existed? Can you remember a time when you didn't? And could God be certain he always existed?


"Were" - no, "are" - yes. The odds that you have pulled the red marble are 100%. You can't look at it in your hand and still tell yourself "there's a one-in-three chance that this marble is red."

There is also the sticky issue of determinism, if you buy into it. If you were destined to pick that marble, then the odds always were 100%.

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"I wonder though, are you certain you have not always existed? Can you remember a time when you didn't? And could God be certain he always existed? "

I'm surprised you're suggesting an eternal self considering your denial of God. As far as my finite knowledge takes me, this is my first life. God has infinite knowledge and can be absolutely certain he has always existed. To suggest otherwise would be absurd.

"Were" - no, "are" - yes. The odds that you have pulled the red marble are 100%. You can't look at it in your hand and still tell yourself "there's a one-in-three chance that this marble is red."

Instead of saying, the odds you have pulled the red marble are 100%, you should rather say, it is certain that you pulled a red marble. And yes, it is certain that you pulled the red marble. Clear as day, you are holding the red marble in your hand. But the odds that the red marble would be pulled (rather than the blue or green one) are still one in three! Similarly, it is certain that I exist, but the probability that I should exist remains one in infinity.

"There is also the sticky issue of determinism, if you buy into it. If you were destined to pick that marble, then the odds always were 100%."

Yeah this is another topic for discussion entirely.

No, the odds that you exist are 1.

The odds for you coming into existence, instead of either non existence, or a slightly different version of yourself are 1/(incalculable finite amount, though definitely not infinity)

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Originally Posted by wannywan

No, the odds that you exist are 1.

The odds for you coming into existence, instead of either non existence, or a slightly different version of yourself are 1/(incalculable finite amount, though definitely not infinity)

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If the past is infinite (which even some atheists hold, if not most), then there was an infinite causal chain prior to your birth. Every event in that causal chain had to go exactly right in order to yield your birth. If an infinite amount of events had to go perfectly right in order to yield your existence, then the probability that you should exist remains one in infinity.

Bit of a straw-man argument in there I think.

Why do you think most atheists believe in an infinite past? I'd love to know.

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Originally Posted by wannywan

Bit of a straw-man argument in there I think.

Why do you think most atheists believe in an infinite past? I'd love to know.

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This is simple. Something had to have always existed, whether it be God or the universe. The dichotomy between theists and atheists is accepting either the former or the latter. Anyone can agree that somethingness did not come from nothingness. If you've speculated as to what exactly nothingness is, you'd find it absurd that anyone would even suggest the universe came from nothing. It follows that since somethingness exists, something has always existed. Since the atheist says it is not God, it must be the universe (this is the common argument I've heard for atheism).

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Originally Posted by ninja pirate

This is simple. Something had to have always existed, whether it be God or the universe. The dichotomy between theists and atheists is accepting either the former or the latter. Anyone can agree that somethingness did not come from nothingness. If you've speculated as to what exactly nothingness is, you'd find it absurd that anyone would even suggest the universe came from nothing. It follows that since somethingness exists, something has always existed. Since the atheist says it is not God, it must be the universe (this is the common argument I've heard for atheism).

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No, there are numerous theories that support a model of the universe that had a starting point, where time and space didn't exist before the singularity that started the universe.

Have you read any Hawking? You might change your mind about what people actually believe.

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Since the atheist says it is not God, it must be the universe (this is the common argument I've heard for atheism).

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Most scientist believe the universe has not existed forever. Again you need to understand science.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nFjwXe-pXvM
Stephen Hawking

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Originally Posted by wannywan

No, there are numerous theories that support a model of the universe that had a starting point, where time and space didn't exist before the singularity that started the universe.

Have you read any Hawking? You might change your mind about what people actually believe.

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Originally Posted by wendylove

Most scientist believe the universe has not existed forever. Again you need to understand science.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nFjwXe-pXvM
Stephen Hawking

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I'd be glad to investigate these things. My main field is philosophy, but I am certainly interested in science. Thanks for the links.

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You may disagree with my outlook on humanity, but that is your ego talking.

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Your personal outlook doesn't concern me, just others who may follow your words. Im more bothered with the impaired logic you're using, it kinda kills a healthy debate.

ill address everything else later. Have to go get drunk.

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Originally Posted by ninja pirate

"You might as well used an Extract from the Qu'ran. You really think I am going to care about what a fictional book says?"

If Jesus was begotten by God (i.e. shares the same nature as God) then he is also eternal. My apologies, you don't need a Bible verse to draw that conclusion.

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Indeed.

You need to be a retard to draw that conclusion. I am not purely being an asshole, you really need to be partially brain dead. Logically, scientifically, objectively, you can not reach that conclusion (Jesus being a super-godly-person(/fag)).

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"And then the 'blabla, grow up'. Hah. Irony. Not like you are clearly going through a very un-original childish emo/angst/depressed period. Even your avatar is emo. Lets cry all day how we are unworthy of god. Wow, great idea."

You've assumed here that you know a lot of things about my personality, when, in fact, you don't. I am far from depressed, and I'm not too sure what being 'emo' would entail. As far as my avatar goes, it probably couldn't be further from the 'emo' classification. It's a famous musician who's been around for nearly 50 years. Bob Dylan, anyone?

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Haha.

"YOU DON'T KNOW ME >:" ( "

Most original line on the internet ever.

Not.

Lighten up. God doesn't hate fags, you'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by ninja pirate

And what do you make of the unifying 'self' lodged in this body?

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What unifying self? Give a brain surgeon a saw and a scoop and see what happens to your unifying self... hint, it will be changed forever. What happens to the unifying self in people who's personalitys change due to a brain tumour? And addictions, explain to me how peoples personalitys change when they get addicted to a substance, if every decision originates from the soul.. hell, how do addictions actually exist if the soul can just override them? Let me guess in advance, you'll avoid these questions and preach to me.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Indeed.

You need to be a retard to draw that conclusion. I am not purely being an asshole, you really need to be partially brain dead. Logically, scientifically, objectively, you can not reach that conclusion (Jesus being a super-godly-person(/fag)).



Haha.

"YOU DON'T KNOW ME >:" ( "

Most original line on the internet ever.

Not.

Lighten up. God doesn't hate fags, you'll be fine.

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Again, grow up. What is your deal? I've never seen you make a civilized post.

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Originally Posted by RooJ

What unifying self? Give a brain surgeon a saw and a scoop and see what happens to your unifying self... hint, it will be changed forever. What happens to the unifying self in people who's personalitys change due to a brain tumour? And addictions, explain to me how peoples personalitys change when they get addicted to a substance, if every decision originates from the soul.. hell, how do addictions actually exist if the soul can just override them? Let me guess in advance, you'll avoid these questions and preach to me.

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The unifying self is the eternal consciousness that you are. When parts of the brain are damaged, the consciousness can no longer use that part of the brain to operate in the material world. Addictions affect the mind, which is different from consciousness, or spirit. The consciousness is simply the awareness behind all the thoughts and emotions going on in the mind. The mind gets addicted, the consciousness is aware of the addiction.

So what makes the final choice to take said substance? Freewill and choice must originate from outside of the cause and effect ran universe, true? So the real you, the soul should be able to choose not to take a specific drug regardless of the physical brains addiction.

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Originally Posted by ninja pirate

Again, grow up. What is your deal? I've never seen you make a civilized post.

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Really? You might recall a lot of civilized post right before you left the R/S forum for like 5 months.

You'll see some more civilized posts directed towards you, after it stops being funny to make fun of this ridiculous new view of religion you have, and reactions on that mockery what is a source of even more entertainment.