The Subconscious/Brainwashing in Church

[Half/Dreaming]

I was raised Catholic, and have been to hundreds of masses. I just recently started thinking about some of the things we say in mass. "We believe in God, father the Almighty....". "We believe in Jesus Christ". Doesnt that seem odd? Think about it. "We believe in God". Isnt that a given? I mean, i dont think "belief" should even be an issue while sitting in Church!!! That just conveys to me that there is some kind of doubt involved. I know the point im trying to get across is pretty vague, and its kind of hard to put into words. Its almost like saying those phrases is only there to convince ourselves, and reinforce what we "believe". Im not saying there is some Church conspiracy that knows God doesnt exist, and they are just trying to control us, but it doesn seem a little controling. I was thinking, maybe saying those phrases over and over, year after year slowly brainwashes people into FULLY believing it. I have heard that saying something a certain amount of times can make you believe it. What about other services? Do they also say phrases like these?

[Jeremysr]

This might be off topic but what's a mass?

[wendylove]

mass is alot of people going to church to worship on a day, mostly sundays.

[wendylove]

Yeah, you're right. See what you believe in is heavily inflenced by location. As their is no evidence for what you believe in faith i.e. brainwashed does play heavily. Poor logic and lack of critical skills are good too as most people believe what they are taught when they are young.

[Half/Dreaming]

yea, thats what i meant. Hearing "We believe" in the formitive years may actually make you believe. Have you ever had a discussion with an true Christian about the possibility that god doesnt exist? Many of them get ANGRY on the spot and get all defensive. It is how i would react if someone told me gravity didnt exist. Maybe the mind just cant handle such dramatic changes.

[Replicon]

Have you ever had a discussion with an true Christian about the possibility that god doesnt exist? Many of them get ANGRY on the spot and get all defensive. Yeah, and it's a real shame, too. I don't think of those as "true christians" because the anger/defensiveness is a sign of weak faith to me. If you're afraid to question your own beliefs and shake the foundations a little, then I think your faith is weak. If you've never questioned anything seriously and come to the conclusion ON YOUR OWN that this is how it has to be, then your faith isn't where it should be for you to really call yourself a TRUE christian. This is, of course, all in my oh so humble opinion, and applies to atheists as well. If you're an atheist and you get super defensive at the thought of there being a god, you need to stop and go on a vision quest or something.

[sourcejedi]

Interesting. I've not heard of those sorts of phrases being used. I see your point, but can you say why you think repeating these specific phrases is any more effective than a) other repeated phrases ("Our Father who art in Heaven...") b) a basic assumption of faith which underlies virtually everything you do in that context e.g. praying for disaster survivors, discourse or discussion on what God wants you to do? -- I don't think people should worry about indoctrinating children into a religion, unless it's a matter of really overt brainwashing and complete control over a whole life. If they're living in a country like mine (and certainly if they have access to DreamViews!), I think there's enough information and access to it for people to make up their own minds as they grow older. Ultimately, you have to be raised in *some* fashion, and whatever that is there are some people who would prefer that you were raised a different way. As an atheist I guess I'm less annoyed that Catholics are brought up with self-reinforcing or mnemomic rituals and more annoyed at the lack of a popular atheist culture to match it. From what I see the popular atheist culture is mainly a reaction against religion. You could certainly get that opinion by reading DV :-). -- I'd disagree where you say doubt isn't a valid topic in a religious service, that it should consider faith only as an absolute. That doesn't make a very welcoming atmosphere for newcomers, and its rather isolating if you do have doubts of your own that you're trying to work out. - Happy DV'ing! Religion ist Opium fur Volk! sj

[LucidFlanders]

What's the point in going to church and praising god and the rest trying to secure your spot? it's like celebrating death when you should celebrate life. Screw death, you only live once and when your times up then your times up. Church IMO is a waste of time and it's pretty repetitive when i used to go a whole 4 or 5 times.

[LucidFlanders]

Yeah, you're right. See what you believe in is heavily inflenced by location. As their is no evidence for what you believe in faith i.e. brainwashed does play heavily. Poor logic and lack of critical skills are good too as most people believe what they are taught when they are young. True that! if you were going to a christian church all the time it's what you would think you believe in. It's really not what you believe in, it's just what you have been taught to believe in because you always go. People can say what they want on their beliefs but really...who "really" believes? i'm sure if i went to some church i would believe them over anyone else...why? because i been taught that way. it's not what you believe, it's what you are taught to believe. After a while it starts making sense to you and your outlook. People neeed to take a step back and find what they REALLY believe in....something they are not taught every sunday for years and years and years. That's just false believing IMO. I'm still searching for what i believe in....some parts of spiritualisty intrest me but it's not the same as believing.

[Half/Dreaming]

Interesting. I've not heard of those sorts of phrases being used.sj If you have ever been to a Catholic mass, it is the apostles creed. "We believe in God, father the almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in Jesus Christ, Gods only son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, who suffered under Pontious Pilot, was crucified, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. Amen" Every Church is a little different, but this is how we said it. Whats funny, is that in the first version, Jesus descended into HELL (before he rose again), where every person went due to origional sin. Is that free will, or what?

[Half/Dreaming]

Haha, interesting connection to this thread. Brought to you by Futurama. In the episode where Bender inherits his dead uncles castle (rough dialogue) Village Robot: Some say unholy things happen up there. For example, all of us say that. Professor: Fuf!! Superstitious robot mumbo-jumbo. Village Robot: Mumbo? Perhaps. Jumbo? Perhaps not! Has any of your "modern science" brought you any closer to understanding how robot walks and robot talks? Professor: (opens robot panel) Yes, you idiot. The circuit diagram is right here on the inside of your case. (maybe a reference to science as an alternate explaination) Village Robot: I believe what i was programmed to believe. That show is awesome. I didnt realize all the great references it makes until i started watching it more.

[Man of Shred]

It's like people saying "I am an alcoholic" everytime you go to an AA meeting. The very mantra hypnotizes suggestible people into beLIEving they are alcoholic.

[Half/Dreaming]

I have some problems with AA, especially the 12 step program. Sure, it helps people, but at the expense of humanitarianism. It scares people away from even moderate drinking. If you are constantly avoiding drinking, then it still controls your life. South Park had a perfect rip on what im talking about. Its the one where Stan Marsh's dad gets a DUI.

[Universal Mind]

I have some problems with AA, especially the 12 step program. Sure, it helps people, but at the expense of humanitarianism. It scares people away from even moderate drinking. If you are constantly avoiding drinking, then it still controls your life. South Park had a perfect rip on what im talking about. Its the one where Stan Marsh's dad gets a DUI. I am very confused on that issue. I am an alcoholic/addict, and I know that there are some people out there who can never ever do their drug(s) of choice at all because once they take that first taste, they are right back in the gutter, not paying their rent or bills, stealing for fix money. But for me personally (I have never stolen or screwed over my bills for drugs, so I am not as bad off as many people are.), allowing myself to get messed up once in a while keeps me from exploding. The longer I go with the intention of total sobriety forever, the harder I binge once I finally do break. If I smoke pot twice a week, I can hold up sort of well, although I deal with cravings five days a week. But if I go four months without pot, I end up snapping, and once I snap, I suck weed down by the Hefty bags for weeks at a time. I really don't know what the answer is. As for AA, it depresses the Hell out of me. I will never go to another meeting. It reportedly works like a miracle for some people, but it makes me want to jump out of the window and get hit by a car. I'm in a room full of people who LOVE to get fucked up, and we talk and talk and talk about how much we love to get fucked up, but then we all walk out of the place without getting fucked up! I can't stand that situation! AA makes me want to get torn up out of my mind. I also can't deal with the one terribly sad story after another for an hour straight every night. It is so depressing, and it makes me want to get really torn up. AA is not for me.

[27]

Half/Dreaming, I don't think simply repeating a phrase can "brainwash" (if there is such a thing) one into believing something. You cannot be hypnotized into believing something you don't want to believe. Wendylove, I have all of the "evidence" I need when a prayer of mine is answered or I feel the Holy Spirit. If that didn't happen I'd see no reason for following the church I was raised in. Logic is important but I think that Gods laws of science and reason are light-years beyond our own. As for getting angry when your beliefs are called into question, there are many atheists on this board that get really angry anytime someone expresses a belief in God. Does that really mean they secretly believe in God?

[skysaw]

On the subject of brainwashing, go rent the movie "Jesus Camp." It will scare the hell out of you. (and if it doesn't, you scare the hell out of me!)

[wendylove]

Wendylove, I have all of the "evidence" I need when a prayer of mine is answered or I feel the Holy Spirit. If that didn't happen I'd see no reason for following the church I was raised in. Logic is important but I think that Gods laws of science and reason are light-years beyond our own. You're a mormon because you were born into mormonism, see if you were born in the middle east you would proberly be a muslim, born in india you would be a hindu and finally in a asian country proberly bhuddhist. Since you have no real evidence, except a feeling and some few prayer anwsered, however all the people off the other religions have the same reasoning of why their religion is correct. Their is no logic or even historical facts behind you're claims. Jesus has no evidence and the claims of mormonism about america having garden of eden and a secrete civiliation is historically laughable. On the subject of brainwashing, go rent the movie "Jesus Camp." It will scare the hell out of you. (and if it doesn't, you scare the hell out of me!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bB2rt3IKJc Brainwashing at its best.

[Half/Dreaming]

I am very confused on that issue. I am an alcoholic/addict, and I know that there are some people out there who can never ever do their drug(s) of choice at all because once they take that first taste, they are right back in the gutter, not paying their rent or bills, stealing for fix money. But for me personally (I have never stolen or screwed over my bills for drugs, so I am not as bad off as many people are.), allowing myself to get messed up once in a while keeps me from exploding. The longer I go with the intention of total sobriety forever, the harder I binge once I finally do break. If I smoke pot twice a week, I can hold up sort of well, although I deal with cravings five days a week. But if I go four months without pot, I end up snapping, and once I snap, I suck weed down by the Hefty bags for weeks at a time. I really don't know what the answer is. As for AA, it depresses the Hell out of me. I will never go to another meeting. It reportedly works like a miracle for some people, but it makes me want to jump out of the window and get hit by a car. I'm in a room full of people who LOVE to get fucked up, and we talk and talk and talk about how much we love to get fucked up, but then we all walk out of the place without getting fucked up! I can't stand that situation! AA makes me want to get torn up out of my mind. I also can't deal with the one terribly sad story after another for an hour straight every night. It is so depressing, and it makes me want to get really torn up. AA is not for me. I just figured out recently i had to quit weed, for good. I was just not one who could limit myself. You seem to be doing a good job, though. I can see how limiting it would make it more fun. I tried coke, and now i understand why it cant be a daily thing for me. It is just way too awesome. Its not like weed or anything. I managed to stop myself. Not everyone can. I was lucky. As for AA. Yea, its a joke. And it only works for simple minded people. Those who believe crying helps will be helped. They believe only other people can help them. Its all about self dicipline. Too many people lack dicipline. I have learned over years that if you want help, you are the only one who is going to give it. I would rather have the police lock me in my house with only necessary supplies to complete my therapy. I also hate how alcoholism is called a "disease". It really just gives alcoholics an excuse and something else to blame. We can only blame ourselves

[Man of Shred]

I am very confused on that issue. I am an alcoholic/addict, and I know that there are some people out there who can never ever do their drug(s) of choice at all because once they take that first taste, they are right back in the gutter, not paying their rent or bills, stealing for fix money. But for me personally (I have never stolen or screwed over my bills for drugs, so I am not as bad off as many people are.), allowing myself to get messed up once in a while keeps me from exploding. The longer I go with the intention of total sobriety forever, the harder I binge once I finally do break. If I smoke pot twice a week, I can hold up sort of well, although I deal with cravings five days a week. But if I go four months without pot, I end up snapping, and once I snap, I suck weed down by the Hefty bags for weeks at a time. I really don't know what the answer is. As for AA, it depresses the Hell out of me. I will never go to another meeting. It reportedly works like a miracle for some people, but it makes me want to jump out of the window and get hit by a car. I'm in a room full of people who LOVE to get fucked up, and we talk and talk and talk about how much we love to get fucked up, but then we all walk out of the place without getting fucked up! I can't stand that situation! AA makes me want to get torn up out of my mind. I also can't deal with the one terribly sad story after another for an hour straight every night. It is so depressing, and it makes me want to get really torn up. AA is not for me. Take note those insta cure evangellical 12 steppers will probly die drunk! (due to acloholic death ratio statistics!). you (according to AA'ers and medical professionals) Are an alcoholic. The main problem that many evangelical 12-steppers fail to realise that alcoholism is not just a problem of drinking. It's a problem of being able to deal with reality for a fixed period of time sober. If drinking was the problem, then it would be easy to get rid of, and you would have no problem staying sober. The parodox is this: what appears to be the problem (alcohol) is actualy the solution, although a temporary one, for the alcoholic. In your own words "if I don't have pot for a period of months I snap.". so alcoholism is a continuos loop of feel bad + alcohol = solution + hangover = feel bad + alcohol ad infinitum. chances are you might die in a coninuos loop similar to my math equation above. AA (which i hate for it's evangelical fanatics). Has been the only thing in keeping alcoholics sober and sane, for longer periods in time. It's tools WILL work for you. But unfortunately you have to put up with those AA fanatics all your life. sometimes, but this is rare, you'll find someone in AA who is more level headed and realistic. so it's either die an alcoholic. or spend the rest of your like in AA hell. choose well!

[Half/Dreaming]

I think AA only works if you are simple minded enough to believe what is told to you there.

[Harrycombs]

maybe saying those phrases over and over, year after year slowly brainwashes people into FULLY believing it. Probably. The church exists for power. All religions do.

[Universal Mind]

so alcoholism is a continuos loop of feel bad + alcohol = solution + hangover = feel bad + alcohol ad infinitum. chances are you might die in a coninuos loop similar to my math equation above. I totally agree with your theory, except for one thing. I don't feel bad when I am sober. I feel much better when I am off all drugs. But very strangely, I still crave drugs. So I end up crashing and going through life feeling worse but craving the drugs even more. It's hard to make sense of it. Also, hangovers make me not want to drink. My alcoholism isn't about having to drink every day. It is about going waaaaaay overboard when I do drink and having to have some kind of buzz every day. The hangovers keep me from drinking alcohol every day. My main problem is pot, but I also love pain killers and speed. I want a buzz whenever I can get one, but I have maintained enough control to stay off drugs while working and taking care of other responsibilities, though it is often all I think about while I am taking care of responsibilities. So the only thing I would change in your equation is "feel bad" to "irrationally crave buzz" and "hangover" to "increase in irrational craving of buzz".

[Half/Dreaming]

I totally agree with your theory, except for one thing. I don't feel bad when I am sober. I feel much better when I am off all drugs. But very strangely, I still crave drugs. So I end up crashing and going through life feeling worse but craving the drugs even more. It's hard to make sense of it. Also, hangovers make me not want to drink. My alcoholism isn't about having to drink every day. It is about going waaaaaay overboard when I do drink and having to have some kind of buzz every day. The hangovers keep me from drinking alcohol every day. My main problem is pot, but I also love pain killers and speed. I want a buzz whenever I can get one, but I have maintained enough control to stay off drugs while working and taking care of other responsibilities, though it is often all I think about while I am taking care of responsibilities. So the only thing I would change in your equation is "feel bad" to "irrationally crave buzz" and "hangover" to "increase in irrational craving of buzz". Im going to make the assumption that you do drugs out of boredom, or atleast a sense of excitement to get rid of that numb feeling of life. It sounds like it, because i was the same way. I would be pissed when i was sober, and pissed when i was not. Screw pot (i never thought i would say that). Its addictive in a completely different way than other drugs. If anyone out there is looking to quit drugs, i found a good way to do it. If you quit it all, it sucks for about a week, for sure. Work out while you do it. I got rid of all that tension and put on some mass at the same time. You wouldnt imagine how good it feels to be rid of constant phening.

[Universal Mind]

Im going to make the assumption that you do drugs out of boredom, or atleast a sense of excitement to get rid of that numb feeling of life. It sounds like it, because i was the same way. I would be pissed when i was sober, and pissed when i was not. Screw pot (i never thought i would say that). Its addictive in a completely different way than other drugs. If anyone out there is looking to quit drugs, i found a good way to do it. If you quit it all, it sucks for about a week, for sure. Work out while you do it. I got rid of all that tension and put on some mass at the same time. You wouldnt imagine how good it feels to be rid of constant phening. Thanks. I work out like a mad dog, and that does help control the cravings. But I don't do drugs out of boredom. I am never bored because there is always stuff to do and stuff to think about. It's just that my mind plays tricks on itself all the time and makes getting high seem like the biggest deal imaginable. Then I get high and say, "THIS is what the big deal was????"

[27]

You're a mormon because you were born into mormonism, see if you were born in the middle east you would proberly be a muslim, born in india you would be a hindu and finally in a asian country proberly bhuddhist. Since you have no real evidence, except a feeling and some few prayer anwsered, however all the people off the other religions have the same reasoning of why their religion is correct. Their is no logic or even historical facts behind you're claims. Jesus has no evidence and the claims of mormonism about america having garden of eden and a secrete civiliation is historically laughable. Wendylove, even those born into a faith still have to be converted. Do you think I've gone my whole life without so much as questioning my religion? Do you think I blindly follow whatever my parents and church leaders say? To base my entire life on something that I think may be a lie would be absolutely idiotic. It's impossible to say what my life would be like if I hadn't be raised LDS. All I can say is that I truly believe in my church, and I base my testimony not on that of my parents, leaders or anything other than personal experience. I really laugh out loud every time I see you say there's no evidence. There is an incredible amount of archeological and other evidence supporting Christianity and Mormonism. But I do not base my beliefs on that. I base my beliefs on the prayers that God answers everyday for me, and the answers I have received following my inquiries regarding the validity of my religion. Do not attempt to downplay my experiences by saying a “few” prayers or “a” feeling. I feel and see the hand of God in my life everyday.