Thread: Agnostic

Just to let you know... I don't keep debating because I want to be right. I want to show people that they can be saved. It's because I love them.

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

Just to let you know... I don't keep debating because I want to be right. I want to show people that they can be saved. It's because I love them.
[/b]

wel lthen why wont yo usave me
Ive baltnalty asked you 2
and you psot this bullshit
come on!
SAVE ME!

im going to bed
I wish to wak up 2morrow and read this, and become a chrsitian or an atheist

but, i fear your all gonna fail to deliver

Imran

I either debate to help people not waste their entire lives on something. Or sometimes when someone practices for many many hours of many many days on trying to make something move with their mind or forming energy in their hands, well, I just feel bad for them in that case.

But ALSO, I like to debate as a fun thing. Many times, especially on moral and ethical issues (rather than scientific), I can understand what I PERSONALLY think. When typing, I am forming my own opinions and solidifying them in my mind so I can understand myself and what I think more. This forum has really helped me shape my opinions in this way.

And on scientific issues, it is nice to be able to further my knowledge of science by trying to come up with concise and clear answers to things.


Oh, and you say that atheism is "arrogant." Well, there is a unicorn with wings that just flew by my window, except I didn't see it. Now, by your logic, if you deny this, you are "arrogant." My point being that really, stuff like that is NO DIFFERENT than christianity (I encourage you to prove me otherwise). The only reason you FEEL it is different is because we were raised (including atheists) to believe that thinking that some guy created our entire universe and we all live... after we die? It is not arrogant to deny things that are based on no claims whatsoever. It would be arrogant if there was empirical evidence, I suppose, but not based on the current status of Christianity.

Originally Posted by imran_p

wel lthen why wont yo usave me
Ive baltnalty asked you 2
and you psot this bullshit
come on!
SAVE ME!

im going to bed
I wish to wak up 2morrow and read this, and become a chrsitian or an atheist

but, i fear your all gonna fail to deliver

Imran
[/b]

I can't save you because I'm a sinner, only Jesus can save you. I can tell you how though, it's very simple. BUT you won't be saved if you don't truly believe in it. And in your first post you say that God is impossible. But you say that "some higher being" or "force" created us. Maybe that's what God is!

bullshit[/b]

Words of an open mind no doubt.

I congratulate you, imran, because this thread actually has the potential for something stimulating, and not just contra opposites battling away blindly.

In any case, I find that agnosticism is the most logical "belief" one can have, seeing as there is little objective proof for either theism or atheism.

If you take the definition very strictly, I am an agnostic. I think is it extremely likely there is no god. However I don't say it is impossible. If I have a discussion about religion, despite of the fact that I am not absolutely certain, but very certain nonetheless, I chose the Atheist 'side' fully.

Sometimes Christians use it as an argument, or as a personal attack, to say "oh, so you aren't completely certain?". It is just silly. The people that are 100% absolutely silly are extremely often not the brightest and most open people.

-

I think debate is fine, I however just get annoyed with Christians that are completely certain, and would rather see them not be completely certain. Absolutism kills.

Yeah I agree with neuro. I am agnostic in regards to its dictionary meaning - one who believes that it is impossible to prove the existence or non existence of god. This is clear. You can obviously not prove the non existence of god as it is an unfalsifiable claim. And unless god comes down and talks to us, we cannot prove that a god actually exists. However, I think you can be agnostic and still athiest. I believe that there there is/are no god/s, but it is still impossible to prove either way.

Originally Posted by Joseph_Stalin

In any case, I find that agnosticism is the most logical "belief" one can have, seeing as there is little objective proof for either theism or atheism.
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After having read all of Gould and Dawkins plus tens of other books on the subject of evolution, I find that there is much objective proof for the lack of need for God to explain anything. And that is just the realm of biology, which I find most interesting. Geology, chemistry, physics, cosomology, all the various sciences of which I know less have just as much to offer as explanations without resorting to the supernatural. That is not to say that humans know everything or ever will. We are confined to our senses and brains which have developed by evolutionary processes to be ideally fitted to survive under certain conditions; this may not include the intellectual or sensory ability to understand the universe and every thing in it. This would not be defined as supernatural, because by definition it would be beyond our sensory capacity, but would follow the laws of the universe, as we are able to understand them. I for one tho am convinced that we don't need anyone's made up fairy tale to explain it, especially those obviously designed to control the unruly masses. Put me down as one of the arrogant know-it-alls in favor of atheism. I'm betting my soul on it, aren't I? I must be pretty sure.

What are you wanting, exactly, Imran? Somebody to talk you out of being an agnostic? Some irrefutable proof one way or the other, that will finally help you decide which side to be on?

Well, how about this...have you ever experienced ANY supernatural phenomenon? Anything at all? This is what I admit to myself: if ever I find out about or experience any supernatural phenomenon, all bets are off. Anything could be true, from Jesus to that Twilite Zone episode where they created the universe everyday like a movie set, to voodoo dolls, and ghosts, and ouija boards. When that happens, I'm screwed because I won't know what to believe in, but until it does, I know that when I die, I'm gone, and so is everybody else and this life is all we have. Just face it!

I think it was Arthur C. Clarke that said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic". (Forgive me if I have misquoted). I don't know why (could be this second beer I'm having), I just decided to throw that in there too.

C'mon Imran--reject superstition! Rah rah for the Rationals!

Okay okay

Now, ataraxis please, pelase dont refer me to christianty and tis patent idiocity

an all knwoing, loving, all powerful god, is impossible
simple loogic can deduce that.
However, what i am saying is. Beleive what you will, but dont profess to know,
How can we know?
Im suggesting that if 2 billion people came to me and said theyd all seen unicorns, id remain doubtful, but i wouldnt full out say
no your all wrong
basically we must offer a small margin of possiblty to every theory until it has been idenfintely proved otherwise
As an atheist you cannot tell me how the world began
therefore, how can you tell me how it didnt begin?
Yo usay big bang, and i say where did the aprticles necceasry for this big bang come from?
Simply the theist gives us statement A
and your giving statement B
niether one of you is saying I can prove my claim

So simply we must,being logical people, select option C

obviously that option goes against human nature, human nature to always want to know, to alwyas profess that we are not ignorant, that we are correct
But quite simply you cannt know that

Now agnosticism, is not knowing wether od exists, or how we came about
Obviously, as with anything, there are branches of agnosticism, I am an apathetic agnostic, but that relates to the idea of a Christian God being a hyporcisy, again,

No Moonbeam im not waiting for some proof, im hoping that this thread will spark some logic, that people will take a step back and start thinking rather than knowing
I used to be atheist, and then I became logical.

If Mr Roberts, says to me, God is just a gigantic antelope, I cannot prove him wrong
However, I will ask for evidence, when he fails to give me that evidence, I'll tell him that until he provides said evidence, i reamain unmoved by his calims.
and until the day the evidence truns up, he cnt forget me being itnersted in his antelope

thats logical

i cant say, "NO, THERES NO SUCH THING!" because i am not in the position to make that desicsion.

Imran

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

I can't save you because I'm a sinner, only Jesus can save you. I can tell you how though, it's very simple. BUT you won't be saved if you don't truly believe in it. And in your first post you say that God is impossible. But you say that "some higher being" or "force" created us. Maybe that's what God is!
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Sorry abotut he double ost
no u fool
i did not say sum higher being created us
I was arguing that it is possible
come on, pelase read my psots, before you spout your ignorant crap.

Imran

I'm an agnostic myself. I believe the Christian God most likely do not exist, but I believe there most likely are gods existing - beings that would fit my definition of the term 'god'.

Originally Posted by imran_p

im fed up
Atheist blah blah blah
Theist blah blah blah

i sit here watching you all debate, the self-confessed all knowing geiuses of our time
the people who KNOW what we can not possibly know at this point in our development
all sitting here, babbling shit, proving nothing
going round in circles
when will you realise?
Atheism, theism are just arrogance
Just part of human nature to think we know
To always formulate an opiniopn
are you all so arrogant that you cant just once take a step back and say

"I DONT know, this is currently above me"

Agnosticism,

So, forget all this atheist vs theist rubbish

Just here right on this thread, argue with the agnsotic point of few

Simply, if a person makes a statement A and claims that it is true, then he must prove that it is true. Similarly, if another person makes a statement B and claims that it is true (or rather A is false), then he too must prove that it is true (or A false).

Read about the proof theory, this is quiote simply symbollic logic.
You smut realsie that i am not arguing that the existence of the Christian God is psosible
as it simply is not
using the christians gods attributes, we can assert that it is impossible

But some force that created us, sum higher being, this COULD be possibe

So please, atheists, theists,

Come hre, and teach me the error of my thinking

This not a debate thread

I eagerly await my conversion

However, i may be dsiappointed =(

Fire away all knowing ones

Imran
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I didn't even realize this was here until you whined about how nobody cared about it. Agnosticism doesn't interest me. It is the equivalent of saying, "I can't prove that the Magical Fairy Turnip doesn't live on my roof, so all I can say about it is, "I don't know." I have never claimed to be able to prove that God doesn't exist. However, I have done a lot to argue that it is a very far fetched concept. As for the Christian God, I have done a lot to argue that the concept contradicts itself in many, many ways. I have been very inviting of counter arguments, and I have said repeatedly that it would be extremely cool to come across good counter arguments and answers to what I am saying. I am trying to get to the bottom of the basic concepts of Christianity as much as I can. How many times do I have to say that? I am so sick of being accused of all kinds of crazy things like "Nazi persecution" of Christians and being "all knowing". It's just so stupid. This is a debate forum, I debate here, and I greatly welcome good counter arguments to what I say and answers to the questions I ask. How often do any of us atheists here get either of those?

Is there a word for people who are in the middle on the issue of whether or not the Great Pumpkin exists? Are you one of them? Why or why not?

Originally Posted by imran_p

an all knwoing, loving, all powerful god, is impossible
simple loogic can deduce that.
[/b]

Then you don't believe in the Christian God. Does that make you "all knowing"?

Originally Posted by imran_p

As an atheist you cannot tell me how the world began
therefore, how can you tell me how it didnt begin?
[/b]

If you see a friend at a bar and can't say for sure how he got there, does that mean you can't argue with a claim that the Jetsons flew him there on a dinosaur they stole from the Flintstones?

Originally Posted by Universal

Agnosticism doesn't interest me. It is the equivalent of saying, "I can't prove that the Magical Fairy Turnip doesn't live on my roof, so all I can say about it is, "I don't know."
[/b]

That is true. After all, one cannot know for sure whether there is a fairy turnip on one's roof or not.

10 Steps to becoming Saved:

1. Admit that you are imperfect

2. Admit that you are a sinner

3. Admit that you NEED god

4. Smoke crack

5. Talk to god and ask him to forgive himself for making you so imperfect

5. Talk to god and ask him to forgive you for being so imperfect

6. Study the bible in the narrow light of blind-faith, finding what you need to contort into a definitive answer that strengthens your faith everytime someone challenges you.

7. Talk to god and 'listen' for him to respond

8. Smoke more crack

9. Focus all of your energy on trying to understand through your interpretation of what god wants you to understand how you are to understand god and his plan for you to understand him.

10. Use your faith to spread blindness to all the unfortunates, imperfects, sinners, and wretches of the world!

Congratulations you are SAVED!!

i also have a 10-step system on how to become any other assortment of faith-based religious followers. $19.99 each. Sorry no Cheques or C.O.D.'s

Quite simply, I'm agnostic because I think it's better to be safe than sorry. Sitting on the fence seems the sensible thing to do, with no solid evidence in either direction. But I don't think I'm really an agnostic by definition... I think the existence of God could be proven. Especially if he was an alien all along. That would be awesome.

Imran_P, how likely do you think it is that the Christian god exists? And how likely is it that ANY god exists?

Existance is probably far greater than Earth and Space and the Universe with its planets around it, so I can't see how the existance of gods would be so highly unlikely. I believe existance is so vast that it would be strange if there are no gods somewhere out there.

absolutism, agnosticism, relativism, atheism, theism, skepticism, nihilism, deism, etc etc...


its all the same shit

Originally Posted by ;388535

absolutism, agnosticism, relativism, atheism, theism, skepticism, nihilism, deism, etc etc...
its all the same shit
[/b]

I totally know what you mean: It all ends on -ism.

If your didn't mean that with 'it is all the same shit' I totally disagree with you.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Imran_P, how likely do you think it is that the Christian god exists?
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He said this...

Originally Posted by Neruo

Now, ataraxis please, pelase dont refer me to christianty and tis patent idiocity

an all knwoing, loving, all powerful god, is impossible
simple loogic can deduce that.
[/b]

... even though he said this...

Originally Posted by Neruo

i sit here watching you all debate, the self-confessed all knowing geiuses of our time
the people who KNOW what we can not possibly know at this point in our development
all sitting here, babbling shit, proving nothing
[/b]

The majority of the debates we have had here and Imran thinks he is above have been specifically about the Christian God.

I love how you keep going at this... We give you an answer and its not good enough for you. Good for you, now go and do whatever agnostics do, and leave us alone. It's pointless to sit here and nag for no reason, and not accept anything we say as a valid opinion. I gave up the fighting about this subject a while ago. I've become so turned off by atheism in general since I started reading these threads. They are pointless, you just want attention... But hey, we all want attention sometimes. Maybe you could right a story and we could have story time! Until then, just stop talking, k?

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

I love how you keep going at this... We give you an answer and its not good enough for you. [/b]

Metcalf, for once I agree with you. I'm outta here.

Originally Posted by Pensive

Quite simply, I'm agnostic because I think it's better to be safe than sorry. Sitting on the fence seems the sensible thing to do, with no solid evidence in either direction. But I don't think I'm really an agnostic by definition... I think the existence of God could be proven. Especially if he was an alien all along. That would be awesome.
[/b]

Finally someone else who thinks that higher beings who influence us are aliens! Think about it, in a few 1000 years when we have amazing technology, if we find a race of aliens that are at a similiar stage to our society around two or three thousand years ago we might want see what effects we could have on them by doing small miracles and such, maybe even posing as Gods out of either pure arrogance or because we want a race to carry on our legacy later we are gone.

I read a very interesting book about the first pyramids being places by aliens to influence us and to see if we would form a whole existance around them, which for a long time the Egyptains did. This would also explain why God seems to change moods very often in the Bible. Maybe changing from aggresive and smighting to kinder was a test to see how much be would believe and if we had the sense to start questioning.

Anyway if there were here i would say they are gone.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

We give you an answer and its not good enough for you. [/b]

I haven't seen you give too many answers. I tried really hard to have a point/counterpoint debate with you, and you ran away. That is a big trend here.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

I gave up the fighting about this subject a while ago. I've become so turned off by atheism in general since I started reading these threads. They are pointless, you just want attention.[/b]

It must be much easier to cop out with that type of statement than it is to actually stand your ground in a debate. I'm glad you're comfortable. If you ever want to have a debate without being a quitter, let me know.