Something so phenomenal must have had an intelligent designer?
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Something so phenomenal must have had an intelligent designer?
No one. God has always existed
why do people always ask this? You cant compair oringes and apples
He designed himself, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeper
People usually ask this question because we can only associate to things with a beginning. It's not the easiest thing to do, trying to imagine Someone that has always been. So with God not having a begining nor having an end this becomes a little hard for people to comprehend.
Is it possible for me to therefore state that the universe has no begining
it always was
obviously not as intricate
but it always was
As God alasy was
I refute this, I beleive the universe alwasy was
and the universe is my God
Is this arugment feasible in your terms Keeper, Ne-Yo?
Imran
Doesn't the intelligent design argument say that the universe is so incredible that something conscious must have designed it? Well, God is supposed to be even more incredible, right? So wouldn't the theory apply even more strongly to God?
The laws of existence have always existed. They have no beginning or end. The universe is only part of existence, and its metaphysical roots transcend time.
Why does a deliberate designer ever have to come into the picture? Why is it that he would not require a deliberate creator but the laws of existence would?
Kind of like how Lincoln was born in a log cabin he built with his own hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by ataraxis
The Universe does have a begining, and was created by the Almighty. If the universe always existed then that would mean that God is constrained by it's laws in which this is not true, because time and matter is linked to space and God is the creator of both leaving him unconstrained by it. So no this arguement is not feasible.Quote:
Originally Posted by imran_p
Quote:
Originally Posted by imran_p
- Everything which has a beginning has a cause
- The universe has a beginning.
- Therefore the universe has a cause.
The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesnt need a cause. In addition, Einsteins general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space.
Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time God is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore He doesnt have a cause. In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning.
Now on another note God, enjoys freedom in creating, sustaining, and governing the world. To say that God is free means that God cannot be forced, constrained, or controlled by anything outside himself. Unlike creatures, God has no need to adjust himself to an environment; rather, ALL environments Exist only in virtue of his creating and sustaining activity. Moreover, God has the freedom to choose what sort of world to create and how to dispose of that world. But this leaves God still with a very wide range of possibilities, among which he chooses the ones he will bring about. Indeed, it has generally been held that God was perfectly free either to create a world or to refrain from creating; prior to creation, there were no creatures to whom the "right to exist" was owed, nor would the goodness of creation "add to" the greatness and goodness of God in such a way that creating was for him necessary and inevitable. So the decision to create was itself a free and generous choice on God's part. So in general no one created God.
And here do you come by this informationQuote:
Originally Posted by Ne
Using science show me how something can not have a beggninng
go on
the problem with having this argument is the christian perspective is that it is based on faih and assumptions
how can you say God has no beggining?
how can anything have no beggining?
Imran
p.s you also said this: The Universe does have a begining, and was created by the Almighty. If the universe always existed then that would mean that God is constrained by it's laws in which this is not true, because time and matter is linked to space and God is the creator of both leaving him unconstrained by it. So no this arguement is not feasible.
Whose to say there is a god? Your arugment is based on your faith, not logic
alright, what was the universe like seven billion billion years ago? Was there a universe?
[edit] Also, how do you know there is not one? Think about it: what could have caused the universe? Is the universe just what we can see and touch? We know there are thinks our bodies cant detect, not even our equipment can see some of the thinks in the universe (i.e. Dark matter)
The universe is everything, so you couldn't travel to a time before it as there would be NOTHING to go back toQuote:
what was the universe like seven billion billion years ago? Was there a universe?[/b]
First of all you cannot use Science, because for one Science has not been around forever. But I'll give you some science related examples. The basic units of all narratives are known by their effects on the environment. God, in this sense, is no different from electrons, quarks, and black holes. All four constructs cannot be directly observed, but the fact of their existence is derived from their effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by imran_p
Granted, God's effects are discernible only in the social and psychological (or psychopathological) realms. But this observed constraint doesn't render Him less "real". The hypothesized existence of God parsimoniously explains a myriad ostensibly unrelated phenomena and, therefore, conforms to the rules "Governing" the formulation of scientific theories. In short God is above Science. You cannot use a method to predetermine his existance that has not out -existed him.
I just explained to you. God has no "CAUSE"Quote:
Originally Posted by imran_p
Who's to say there isn't a God? Let's talk logic then, Use your "logic" to disprove his existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by imran_p
Okay well let's go by your logic and your science and show me, that considering by your belief that the universe has existed forever then tell me how this is possible? How is that the universe requires no beinging? And no Cause?
And why would there be nothing to go back to?Quote:
Originally Posted by imran_p
so what was it like at the furthest point you can go back to?Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddlywink101
I dont believe that the universe has existed forever, I was making a comparison
I was showing you the simplicity and the illogical side of your argument
and the fact that you cant say that God has existed forever, because that argument can be related to the universe
Its a apethic argument the casuation theory
everything ahs a cause
but god has no cause
Major contradiction there
Imran
That's why I showed you how illogical your arguement was and the fact that it is not feasible you are referreing to something that has a begining vs something that existed infinatelyQuote:
Originally Posted by imran_p
For starters the question is absolutely invalid "Everything has a cause." Secondly where is the contridiction here? First of all what you really implying here is logically problematic. If everything needs a creator, than no matter what exists, it must have been created right? This is what you are saying am I correct? Now, to be created means that someone or something had to create it right? But then, who created the creator and so on? Can you kinda see where this is headed? Logically, this would mean there would be an infinite regression of creators and we would never be able to find the first, uncaused cause since, by definition (the questions says that "everything needs a creator") there wouldn't be any uncaused cause. This would mean that the sequence of creations is eternal. But let's look at it from your point of view for a moment and I'll show you how ridiculous you sound. Let's just say hypohetically this is true and that if it exists that there is an eternal regression of creators, then who created the infinite regression of creators? Remember, the question presupposes that all things need a creator even the eternal sequence of creators which becomes logically absurd :wtf: Furthermore, if there is an eternal regression of creators that are eternal, then the question is not answered, Is it Irman? In fact, it cannot be answered since it weakness is that "all things need a creator." Of course, this only begs the question in that how did the process begin? Therefore, the question only raises the same problem it asks and it is a question that, by its own design, cannot be answered. Therefore, it is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by imran_p
Imagine that at one point everything was white light, the whole universe...this light is like little bubbles of connected energy spreading out in all directions until it covers the whole void of existence...this light has one source, one center which multiplies and pushes out in all directions then relays all encountered information to that which created it. After the whole void has been covered and all aspects of itself has been discovered the information goes back to the center which then creates the first thought, the first sense of being and fullness..That word which is the workman of the universe, the thought that ever grows and learns from the travels of the divine light and creates by the will and word of God...The white light is God and the word which it created is the Son of God
Did you read the post you were responding to? I said that the universe is only part of existence and that the laws of existence, the metaphysical roots of the universe, transcend time and have no beginning. Then I asked why God could have just always existed and why the laws of existence couldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne
You have a habit of ignoring my most important points.
The Ekpyrotic Scenario provides of Big Bang-like model of the universe with no beginning or end.
your topic asks who created god.
we don't even know if there IS a god. thus no way to prove anything
Not only that, the current consensus among experts in quantum physics is that things can happen with no cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradybaker
I don't know.
brilliant, sloth. thanks so much for your amazing opinion.
Yeah I hate that kind of questions. Like when christians ask: 'If there is no god, then how did the universe get created?'Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeper
I just say:
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No one. The universe has always existed
why do people always ask this? You cant compair oringes and apples
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Oranges and apples being 'I see a chair, that has to be created, so so has to be the world'. But that really isn't even the point. The point is Keeper, that you can really change 'god' with 'universe', and there is no reason at all that your 'reason' is better.
(and that leaves it at the millions of other religions to make your specific religion be unlikely).
Universal Mind you act like I'm ignoring your post on purpose. It was Irman_P He threw me off track and broke my concentration. That question withinself is illogically problemantic and to be honest with you it cannot be answered. For one Not even in the Metaphysical Root of a universe existence could it transcend time. You're making it seem as if time is able to spill over outside of the universe and this is impossible because the universe and time are two different components of the same entity, they coexist and are completely dependent of one another. Put it this way without one you can't have the other, it's just completely illogical and without both together you do not have existence. This would be a problem for God's exsistence if he was bound by the universe enternal existence. The only law of existence does this framework include are the laws of existence on our physical plane. It would only apply to us and rule out God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal
I have a question Why did you create this topic?
there is areason why it is better: because the universe HAS a bigginning, and all begginings have a cause
do you agree?