You Are Pigeons

[becomingagodo]

BELIEVING IN MAGIC The Psychology of Superstition Stuart Vyse Oxford University Press, 1997. For anyone curious about why superstition is so common, Vyse's study is an essential addition to the library. The chapter on superstition and coincidence is a marvellous example of how laboratory psychology can throw light on everyday behaviour. In 1948, B. F. Skinner wrote a paper on superstition in pigeons, describing experiments where rewards were given at fixed intervals, like every 15 seconds, but the pigeon's behaviour showed operant conditioning, such that it associated an action, like pecking the floor or walking in circles, with the arrival of the reward. These conditioned behaviours were like rituals, and were performed in between rewards, even though there was no connection between doing anything at all and receiving food. Such behaviours were thus called superstitions. Coincidence is described here as temporal contiguity: a behaviour occurring just as the reward is given is reinforced. Naturally, similar experiments have been performed with human subjects, with very interesting results. In Koichi Ono's 1987 experiment, subjects were asked to earn points in response to a signal light, and were faced with 3 levers, though they were not told to do anything in particular. They could see their score on a counter, but did not know that points were awarded completely irrespective of what they did. Most subjects developed superstitious behaviour, mainly in patterns of lever-pulling, but in some cases in the form of elaborate or even strenuous actions of touching walls or jumping. Each of these superstitions began with a coincidence. Vyse offers an evolutionary interpretation of conditioned superstition: "When stakes are high, we are particularly susceptible to conditioning. There is a strong tendency to repeat any response that is coincident with reinforcement. In the long run, this tendency serves the species well: if turning in a circle really does operate the feeder, the bird eats and survives another day; if not, little is lost." (p.76) The origins of magical thinking are discussed in a chapter on Growing Up Superstitious: "As children learn the names of objects, they often exhibit what Piaget called nominal realism - the confusion of the name with the object itself. . . In children, nominal realism leads to the expectation that names and thoughts are connected with objects and can influence real world events." (p.153) Unfortunately, of course, this childish tendency is not restricted to childhood. The counter to nominal realism is the old slogan, "the map is not the territory", but this simple notion is not understood by those who, to take a notorious example, practise dowsing by dangling a pendulum over a map of some land. How can this be anything other than infantile behaviour? This is part of the general issue of symbols, and will be discussed elsewhere on this site. [/b] this was originally done on pigeon. belife in superstition and religion is created by coincidence or growing up indoctrinated belife where some event happen and you assiociate the religion or idea with the behevior like a pigeon did in early experiment. their is no scientific proof for religion or spritual belife you could say that their no proof that it wrong and that it a personal experiance. but then the person who says that is no better then a pigeon because they have no proof for their assumption and their trapping your mind into the process describe above. so in conclusion a person who belives in spritual and religion is a pigeon. p.s. if you our mad then you should have read the topic description.

[Neruo]

Roo-Koo? Or whatever pidgeons say Anyhow, yeah, Christians are silly. Point.

[Jess]

The chapter on superstition and coincidence is a marvellous example of how laboratory psychology can throw light on everyday behaviour.[/b] That excerpt does not mention religion or spirituality at all. It might apply to it but it also applies to everything else in a deep way that I won&#39;t be so arrogant as to pretend to comprehend. If you were stuck in a traffic jam you might shout out or hit the dashboard in frustration, trying to will the cars in font to move forward, even though there was no connection between doing anything at all and the cars moving forward, every 15 seconds or so. Does it matter if "a person who belives in spritual and religion is a pigeon" and "their trapping your mind into the process describe above."? Holding spiritual values such as love, compassion, putting others before yourself etc. is psychologically healthy. Even if they&#39;re wrong, would you rather they listen to you and instead believe in hate? Think about it for a second. I&#39;d rather be a pigeon. if easily offended or a coward dont read: big‧ot [big-uht] –noun 1.a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. 2.one who is strongly partial to one&#39;s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. [Origin: 1590–1600; < MF (OF: derogatory name applied by the French to the Normans), perh. < OE bī God by God] big‧ot‧ry [big-uh-tree] –noun, plural -ries. 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one&#39;s own. 2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot. [Origin: 1665–75; bigot + -ry, formation parallel to F bigoterie] —Synonyms 1. narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination.

[Bonsay]

this was originally done on pigeon. belife in superstition and religion is created by coincidence or growing up indoctrinated belife where some event happen and you assiociate the religion or idea with the behevior like a pigeon did in early experiment. their is no scientific proof for religion or spritual belife you could say that their no proof that it wrong and that it a personal experiance. but then the person who says that is no better then a pigeon because they have no proof for their assumption and their trapping your mind into the process describe above. so in conclusion a person who belives in spritual and religion is a pigeon. p.s. if you our mad then you should have read the topic description. [/b] So the pigeon getting food is superstition? It seems more like learning to me, eaven if it seems odd, animals can think... To me the quote is just silly, how can we know what the pigeon is thinking. For all we know he might be thinking "Ok I'm hungry, lets pull the lever so the stupid human gives me food". By the way, they also have no proof for their statement. I mean the lever pulling or jumping is just a simpler version of humans going to work to get payed. You are not more than a pigeon too then, you are saying that there is no god, but isn't that an assumption, do you have any proof, for the statement that there is no god? No you don't. That's just what you wrote- assumption without proof is being a pigeon. (("p.s. if you our mad then you should have read the topic description." "You Are Pigeons, if easily offended or a coward dont read" If you are easily offended then the description allready does the job.))

[Tsen]

spiritual values such as love, compassion, putting others before yourself etc[/b] Don't kid yourself--those aren't spiritual values. Dolphins, most apes, several species of monkey, and elephants all show empathy, and have set group standards such as endangering oneself for the good of another. It isn't in any way tied to spirituality. Unless you're saying that without religion you'd be incapable of loving somebody. I'm not religious, and I can testify that in reality it is nothing like that at all. Bonsay-- You're right, it is an assumption that there is no god. But it is an assumption supported by all empirical evidence (well, moreso the lack of evidence). Anyway, here's a brief scenario describing my opinion on gawd: -If there is no gawd, then I have lived my life to its fullest and enjoyed every minute. -If there is a gawd who is interested in human affairs, and said gawd is TRULY a loving deity, I will be accepted into heaven for being a good human. -If there is a gawd who is interested in human affairs, and I am NOT allowed into heaven DESPITE being a good person, then it is not the sort of heaven I would want to be a part of, nor a gawd I would desire to worship. -If there is a gawd, but not one that is interested in human affairs, then once again, I have lived my life to its fullest. And really, the first and last are the most likely scenarios. If there is a supreme being, why would it be interested in what we're doing here and now? In the grand scheme of things, we matter very little.

[Bonsay]

Tsen I don't believe in god. The maker in my opinion exists, but when saying the maker you must understand that I am thinking of something totaly uncomprehendable and undescribable (not in "human" form with human emotions, feelings, thoughts but totaly above us and above our dimension), so not worth talking about. But again we can't know. It could be the biblical god, or just a "student" in a chemestry class in another dimension making a small explosion to entertain himself.

[Jess]

Don't kid yourself--those aren't spiritual values. Dolphins, most apes, several species of monkey, and elephants all show empathy, and have set group standards such as endangering oneself for the good of another. It isn't in any way tied to spirituality. Unless you're saying that without religion you'd be incapable of loving somebody. I'm not religious, and I can testify that in reality it is nothing like that at all.[/b] Because animals show empathy, it isn't spiritual? Of course I'm not saying that without religion you'd be incapable of loving somebody, that's silly. I'm not religious either, and yes, I too like everyone else can testify that in reality it is nothing like that at all. But isn't true love not just love for your son, sister, mother or friend but love for everyone, even those who hate you? Like Saint Francis of Assisi risking his own life in an attempt to convert the Sultan of Egypt to Christianity in a genuine attempt to end the fighting, not a desire to impose his beliefs. The Sultan didn't convert but sent him to convert his own people because he was so impressed. Or the Chinese Buddhist monk Haitong who built the largest stone Buddha in the world at 233 feet high. Haitong believed the Buddha's presence would protect the local fishermen who regularly drowned in the treacherous river below it. His compassion was so strong that when an official threatened to blind him if he didn't pay him the funds raised for the construction, he gouged his own eyes out. Maybe you think Saint Francis of Assisi was kidding himself believing in God. Maybe you think Haitong was a wally to believe a statue would protect the fishermen (In actual fact it did work because the rubble from building it was dumped in the river and slowed the currents making it safer). Who can say, but my point is their selfless love for their fellow human beings was a good thing. So what if they're so-called pigeons. So tell me, what is spirituality?

[YourImaginaryFriend]

Maybe you think Saint Francis of Assisi was kidding himself believing in God. Maybe you think Haitong was a wally to believe a statue would protect the fishermen (In actual fact it did work because the rubble from building it was dumped in the river and slowed the currents making it safer). Who can say, but my point is their selfless love for their fellow human beings was a good thing. So what if they're so-called pigeons. [/b] You can't point out a few people and use that as proof that religion or spirtuality makes people better. I can point out ten terrible things that religious people have done for every one good thing that you point out. I promise. Don't ASSume that being religious makes you a better person. There are those cases, but there are many more where the overwhelming arrogance and bigotry of religion causes much pain and suffering. I am sick of hearing that argument. There are good and bad religious people and there are good and bad Atheists. Belief in something spiritual does not change that...it just makes you think you are better or "enlightened". I have met disgusting Christians that are extremely cruel, and I have met Atheists that would give you the shirt off their back if you were in need.

[becomingagodo]

By the way, they also have no proof for their statement. I mean the lever pulling or jumping is just a simpler version of humans going to work to get payed. You are not more than a pigeon too then, you are saying that there is no god, but isn't that an assumption, do you have any proof, for the statement that there is no god? No you don't. That's just what you wrote- assumption without proof is being a pigeon. [/b] yes they have their is the food or prize was given by random. also a funny thing most of the time when they did do their behevior say for example praying to get prize most of the time it did not get them anything but they still believe it. also they didnt try to prove themselves wrong by not doing their action to see if their get prize. So tell me, what is spirituality?[/b] well pigeon behavior is getting a prize by coincidence and then belife in it with no proof as displayed by pigeon, children and adults. You are not more than a pigeon too then[/b] if i look at the window and saw a giant man standing their saying he was god then i will believe. the point is if i say god give me a sign nothing happen. horrific crime of humanity are done everyday and yet if you believe really hard it wont stop. i remeber on the news after the tsenmy in a asia contry where a priest said that great work of god our being done because he gave the example of a man losing his wife and kids to the disaster and as he was dying a priest wanted him to except jesus chirst as his saviour. the point is i not a pigeon because i can look beyound my own behavior see a pigeon or person does not look for truth or what he believe he just carry on doing the behavior. proof by contradiction. So what if they're so-called pigeons.[/b] as yourimaginaryfriend said their is a lot of badness done by religion. a pigeon does not desearve to be human see human have massive of brain power and what is wasted for pigeon behavior it like having the most powerful computer and using it to play packman.

[Jess]

You can't point out a few people and use that as proof that religion or spirtuality makes people better. I can point out ten terrible things that religious people have done for every one good thing that you point out. I promise. Don't ASSume that being religious makes you a better person. There are those cases, but there are many more where the overwhelming arrogance and bigotry of religion causes much pain and suffering. I am sick of hearing that argument. There are good and bad religious people and there are good and bad Atheists. Belief in something spiritual does not change that...it just makes you think you are better or "enlightened". I have met disgusting Christians that are extremely cruel, and I have met Atheists that would give you the shirt off their back if you were in need. [/b] I totally agree but I'm not talking about any organised religion. I'm talking about Atheists, Christians, Hindus, everyone. I don't think that if you're religious it automatically makes you good, or if you're not it automatically makes you bad. Any pain and suffering caused by a religion was caused through materialistic selfish beliefs and definitely not spirituality. Calling yourself a Christian or an Atheist doesn't mean anything if you don't practice it, its just a label. A so-called Christian might never pray or go to church or whatever, an Atheist might give you the shirt off their back as you say. I would have thought that was obvious. Aren't you 'being a pigeon' by ASSuming that I believe 'being religious' makes you a better person just because I happened to pick two members of famous religions even though there was no connection between the two (my supposed belief and my choice of people), it was just coincidence? As you said it could be two atheists, then would you ASSume I look down on all religious people? Seems like we're all pigeons, just as stupid as each other, whether atheist or not. You can't point out a few people and use that as proof that religion or spirtuality makes people better. [/b] I wasn't in any case. I was trying to show that they were obviously spiritual people whose highest values, which they put even before their own lives, were love and compassion so how can those not be spiritual values.

[Bonsay]

yes they have their is the food or prize was given by random. also a funny thing most of the time when they did do their behevior say for example praying to get prize most of the time it did not get them anything but they still believe it. also they didnt try to prove themselves wrong by not doing their action to see if their get prize. [/b] If I was taken and then put in a small box and if I somehow found out that dancing might bring food, then I would do it, eaven if it doesn't happen always. You can't say that pigeons are praying to a diety just because they learned that by doing something might bring them food to survive. Also I must point out that you are way over astimating the intelligence of some animals, do you really think that a pigeon thinks like a human, do you really think that it would eaven bother trying to proove himself wrong, do you think that it has the mental capability like that, the only thing probably on his mind in the box is: Where will I find food, how will I get out and where are all the lady pigeons... I doubt pigeons discuss existance and do experiments to see if they are right or wrong. well pigeon behavior is getting a prize by coincidence and then belife in it with no proof as displayed by pigeon, children and adults. the point is i not a pigeon because i can look beyound my own behavior see a pigeon or person does not look for truth or what he believe he just carry on doing the behavior. proof by contradiction. [/b] You keep believing in things like there is no subconcious, hypnosis, photogenic reading... what are your beliefs based on? Proof, the Derrens Brown book is no different than the bible, it says something and you automaticaly believe it without doubt, it doesn't matter what book or internet page it is, the fact that you don't test the statements makes you the same as the people who believe in the bible, or the same as in your statements a pigeon. I am assuming that you didn't do tests, to proove your statements (where ever you got them).

[becomingagodo]

Also I must point out that you are way over astimating the intelligence of some animals, do you really think that a pigeon thinks like a human, do you really think that it would eaven bother trying to proove himself wrong, do you think that it has the mental capability like that, the only thing probably on his mind in the box is: Where will I find food, how will I get out and where are all the lady pigeons... I doubt pigeons discuss existance and do experiments to see if they are right or wrong. [/b] pick and choosing again. well if you read post it says it been tested on human and children and the result show that they displayed the same behavior of pigeon i.e. magical thinking. yes they dont but what use is dissucing such thing when your just a pigeon to your own belife. You keep believing in things like there is no subconcious, hypnosis, photogenic reading... what are your beliefs based on? Proof, the Derrens Brown book is no different than the bible, it says something and you automaticaly believe it without doubt, it doesn't matter what book or internet page it is, the fact that you don't test the statements makes you the same as the people who believe in the biblem, or the same as in your statements a pigeon. I am assuming that you didn't do tests, to proove your statements (where ever you got them).[/b] i believe in nothing well i am a full for heraclitus system of thought. i waiting how long somebody pick out my overuse of darren brown i assure you that i check everyclaim he made using psychology paper printed by various university the point is it easier to quote darren brown because he simplyifed it the quote reserch paper e.g. it easier to explain einstein theory of relativity using a normal book written in general then a hard university book were lots of knowledge in subject is needed. an i have never said photographic memory is improssible i just said that you have to be overly sceptical about the people who claim they can give you this because they mostly want your money. i dont test statement ok this is stupid it like saying to someone who believe in cold fusion and say it been tested correct and some idiot along saying you cant believe in this because you havent done it yourself do you how much money and time i will lose if i was to try and test all my assumption i think i could trust some university paper on a scientific subject that has evidence to back it up. Bonsay do you believe in we only dream during REM period well it has been scientifically proven that we sleep althought the night do you know how i know this i could be bothered to look this up. the one thing i can trust is science and induction you on the other hand trust yourself and wont listen to reason or scientific fact a pigeon cant see he a pigeon.

[Hard as Nails]

most people would do most ANYTHING to avoid eternal hellfire and damnation. As the article said, when the stakes are high, beings will do anything. Christians, as well as all other religious people, have been tricked into believing in the supernatural world. Since they believe this world exists with all their hearts, they believe most things about it (hell). Religion is simply a mixture of FEAR and INDOCTRINATION. Nothing more. Yet they still believe. .................Humans are gullible.

[Anemone]

I can understand why the birds would do that. Most animals would. Like another poster said, it's called learning. The pigeon pecked in circles, food arrived at random intervals. The pigeon doesn't have the brain capacity to understand that the food arrives in fixed intervals no matter what it does. So it pecks, the food arrives, and like the article stated, little is lost with this behavior. The pigeon still gets food, and who cares what it spends it's day doing? I believe that what the people did in the experiment is probably a common reaction for most people. When something happens, you try to figure out why it happened. You experiment until you figure it out. These people were set up where the points would be awarded randomly, they did not know this! Therefore, they had to come up with their own solutions. They weren't given much else choice. They could have stood there and just waited to see what happened with the points, but most assumed that the levers, since they were there, obviously would have something to do with it. Either way, no matter what they did, they received the points. Had they tried every option available they might have figured out that the point system was random and had nothing to do with their actions, but I still think it was set up in a way that would be confusing to the person involved. becomingagodo "but then the person who says that is no better then a pigeon because they have no proof for their assumption and their trapping your mind into the process describe above. so in conclusion a person who belives in spritual and religion is a pigeon." The pigeon did have proof for it's assumption, it just had the WRONG assumption. The pigeon assumed that since it had pecked before the food arrived, the food would arrive if it did that. It's a basic concept in psychology: behavior and reward. The pigeon pecked, it got a reward, of course it was going to continue pecking. As I said before, the pigeon doesn't have the brain capacity to understand the food intervals were random and unrelated. Humans and religion, imo, is a totally different type of behavior. Religion dates back way before Christianity, it goes back to the pagans and nature worship. Religion for them was a way to define the world around them since they lacked the knowledge we have now about weather patterns, etc. This is still what we do today. No, I don't agree with a lot of religious concepts, nor do I believe in a lot of them. I totally believe that people should explore things for themselves and not just take things at face value. I'm just saying that religion was, and to some extent, still is, a way for humans to define the world around them and make it seem more structured. We don't have all the answers, and we never will. This doesn't make us pigeons. Edited: to correct spelling

[Howie]

I am not easily offended or a coward..or a pigion, for that matter. But this is no more than a feeble parody.

[becomingagodo]

I'm just saying that religion was, and to some extent, still is, a way for humans to define the world around them and make it seem more structured. We don't have all the answers, and we never will. This doesn't make us pigeons. [/b] but cant you see this the reason your a pigeon see a pigeon changes behavior to something he can express and follow intently. see a pigeon does not see the truth he define the world around them and make it seem more structured he follow his own logic blindly because it takes away chaos and is easy. the pigeon does not want truth and children and adult dont want truth either if they did they would have passed the test as you say. a religion is a behavior how is it any different to that of pigeon you could argue that the pigeon behavior was a way to define the world around them and make it seem more structured.

[Howie]

Maybe you underestimate animal instincts. It can easily be seen as intelligence at times. We however are sentient beings with a much more elaborate process of brain functions that seek, want need and can think ahead for all of these. Again, I am not easily offended or a coward..or a pigeon, for that matter. But this is no more than a feeble parody.

[becomingagodo]

Maybe you underestimate animal instincts. It can easily be seen as intelligence at times. We however are sentient beings with a much more elaborate process of brain functions that seek, want need and can think ahead for all of these. Again, I am not easily offended or a coward..or a pigeon, for that matter. But this is no more than a feeble parody.[/b] it been tested on humans and been proved correct. have you got proof in your religious belife we out saying i belive or i feel if not then your are just a pigeon also read the experiment again in first page. p.s. the only reason i put that their is because i dont want to get thrown out just for being overly sceptically and saying what scientific or psychology expriment say.

[WhiteUnit]

What a lamo title. It beggs for attention. Unfortunatley, science is still lacking in many of its answers. I do beleive humans are superstitous in many respects. However, that does not mean I dismiss all likelyhood of a supernatural truth. Science calls religion superstition, then it turns around and claims that there was this thing... that blew up.. and and now the universe exists. Also, Ill take religious belief over scientific belief because- Science says humans are going to kill themselves. Religion says humans are going to kill themselves, would you like to live forever?

[Green_Man]

this was originally done on pigeon. belife in superstition and religion is created by coincidence or growing up indoctrinated belife where some event happen and you assiociate the religion or idea with the behevior like a pigeon did in early experiment. their is no scientific proof for religion or spritual belife you could say that their no proof that it wrong and that it a personal experiance. but then the person who says that is no better then a pigeon because they have no proof for their assumption and their trapping your mind into the process describe above. so in conclusion a person who belives in spritual and religion is a pigeon. p.s. if you our mad then you should have read the topic description. [/b] I disagree, friend. First of all superstitions regard daily human activities. Religion on the other hand has significant socio-cultural relevance to the history and development of human beings. People will always attempt to understand and reach out and attempt to comprehend their enviroments through some form of spirituality. This has been made obvious throughout history, all over the globe regardless of geography. Comparing christians to pigeons is therefore silly as animals do not have a socio-cultural aspect to them. P.S Im not a christian or spiritual by the way.

[becomingagodo]

People will always attempt to understand and reach out and attempt to comprehend their enviroments through some form of spirituality. This has been made obvious throughout history, all over the globe regardless of geography. Comparing christians to pigeons is therefore silly as animals do not have a socio-cultural aspect to them.[/b] well are you saying that belife in christianty is a social thing and they dont really believe in their pigeon belife or that religion is the product of culture not truth. either way they must personally believe in their belife which is the root of pigeon and human magical thinking if you get a group of pigeon having the same behavior and this is past on it doesnt make them anyless of a pigeon.

[YourImaginaryFriend]

I'm just saying that religion was, and to some extent, still is, a way for humans to define the world around them and make it seem more structured. We don't have all the answers, and we never will. This doesn't make us pigeons. Edited: to correct spelling [/b] And we are trying to understand the world around us with modern science. If you had medical questions you wouldn't ask a sheep-herder from 100 B.C., so why would you go off of what they believed about the universe?!

[bendstringz]

I am a christian,and Im not superstisious.I know that everyone is entitled to there own opinion.

[becomingagodo]

I am a christian,and Im not superstisious.I know that everyone is entitled to there own opinion. [/b] yes but that doesnt make it true and if you believe in something without proof then that does make you supersitious. all you are doing is showing pigeon behavior

[Howie]

So I can conclude that you have a bird brain?