Question for Leo Volont

[Drifter]

Just trying to understand why you dont like the teachings of Paul and it sounds like you dont think Christ died for our sins I am just trying to clarify what your saying. What is christianity to you? Thanks. Just trying to understand some things.

[boldtypespark]

Err, dont mean to cut in, but you may have wanted to send this in a PM. Or maybe not... Either way *Slowly tip-toes away*

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Drifter Just trying to understand why you dont like the teachings of Paul and it sounds like you dont think Christ died for our sins I am just trying to clarify what your saying. What is christianity to you? Thanks. Just trying to understand some things. You need to clarify your verbs. To say Christ died is a passive construction. The Truth is that Christ was killed... Murdered. So you would be saying that Christ was MURDERED for our sins. But what does it mean when you say "for our sins"... you are implying that Christ was murdered SO WE COULD SIN. First, in response, it is morally irresponsible to suppose one can profit and benefit from a Crime, any crime. If we could possibly benefit from the Murder of Christ, our sense of ethical responsiblity would demand we renounce that benefit. For instance, we tossed out Medical Research that the NAZI's and the Japanese had developed while performing experiments on Camp Inmates and Prisoners of War, experiments done without proper consent. It was considered an insurmountable ethical problem -- medical cures should not source out of monstrous cruelties. Well, wasn't torturing Jesus to death something of a monstrous cruelty? And we know it was not Voluntary. Christ prayed -- in three separate sessions, even asking for the help of his Apostles, that God rescue him from arrest and execution. And then we have the story of the Trials and the excursion with the Cross -- Christ was not cooperative, and on the way out to be crucified even took the time to place a Curse on Jerusalem. Now, does that SOUND as though Christ willingly died for our Sins, or rather can we suppose that Christ was disappointed and vindictive? You know, we can SEE for ourselves if God forgave us our Sins. We have 2 thousand years of subsequent History. The people who most believed in Paul's Doctrines of Forgiveness of Sin... they were the first to split off from the Catholic Church, and then they were the first to be overrun by the Huns, then the Mongols and then the Turks. Now, if they actually were the True Believers in the Truest of Doctrines, why was it that God showed such contempt for their Civilization? The Roman Church, though with strong Paulist Elements, had a Counter Force of Marianism (notice that in all of Paul's writings, he NEVER ONCE quoted Christ and NEVER ONCE mentions Mary). We can see Historically that in every instance where the Roman Catholic Church followed its Marian and Jesusian direction, that it thrived, flourished and succeeded. Yes, eventually, with the invention of the Printing Press, the Letters of Paul became too powerful of a Dark Influence which lead to the collapse of Catholic Civilization. But while the Letters of paul had been suppressed, and Mary had been the center of Catholic Devotion, the Christian Church had veritably been "the Thousand Year Reign of Christ on Earth". Indeed, we can take a good close look at all of the Christian Nations and Church Congregations and can determine that no group has been especially favored in proportion as they renounced Moral Responsiblity for the sake of having Faith in Salvation. To the contrary, we can document the Wars, Plagues and Famines that God has sent to such Nations and Churchs. Isn't Punishment inconsistent with Salvation and Forgiveness. and yet all we see from God is Punishment. Yet, even some of the Greatest Saints have 'believed' in Salvation and Forgiveness because of the Murder of Jesus. And Jesus has even appeared in Apparition to comment upon this. We have had over a hundred Stigmatic Saints... the first and perhaps the most famous of the Stigmatic Saints being Saint Francis of Assisi. Christ appeared to Saint Francis, and to many of the other Stigmatic Saints and posed the question "Do you seek my Suffering or my Glory", and like good Paulists all of these Saints had answered in favor of Christ's Suffering. And so they received Christ's Suffering. They acquired the Five Wounds and could no longer eat or drink. They would spend the rest of their lives in Holy Hunger, Holy Thirst, and Holy Pain. They endured it. But it was no Reward. It was a punishment for having Wished Suffering on their Messaih... it was a Punishment for asking that Christ be alloted Suffering instead of Glory. So, if you want to know what I believe, it is that if Christ were to ask me whether I should seek His Suffering or His Glory, well, I would say that the Messiah had suffered enough and that we've seen how well that worked, and that we should now give Glory a chance -- that the next time we have a Messiah, rather than campaigning for his execution, we should all conspire to make Him our King of the World. And regarding Forgiveness of Sins, while Mercy and Moderation can be exercised regarding those who are truly repentent of their sins, and have shown a decided will to be better than they have previously behaved, still, the principle of Justice should not be subverted by any General All Inclusive Amnesty. One cannot condone Sin. The Doctrine of Forgiveness is great for Sinners but is lousy in its insensitivity for the Victims of Evil. We need to think of the Quality of Heaven. Heaven would not be heaven, would it, if all Sin were allowed in at its Gate. Heaven can only be All Goodness and Light, only if all darkness and sin is decidedly kept out.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Celoude Err, dont mean to cut in, but you may have wanted to send this in a PM. Or maybe not... Either way *Slowly tip-toes away* What!? And miss my response.

[InTheMoment]

Great post Leo...you tell them pesky Protestants!

[Drifter]

well im not a protestant i am an eastern orhtodox. when you say leo that when the next christ should come and we should make him the king of the world, that paints a perfect picture of what the bible says about the coming antichrist, hell calim that he is god and rule all the nations. Even christ said that if anyone says here is the christ in this next room that know that he is false. Christ will come back in the clouds that he left. If christ wanted not to be tortured and killed why did he stop his apostle fighting the guards when they were taking him away. Yeah i disagree with alot of the protestant teachings, saying faith alone. Its like a son using his father to spoil him and pay for everything in his life and not lift a finger. Its with our deeds that we glorify christ but again our deeds should be in christs name and not to promote ourselves, thats something that the protestants lack.

[boldtypespark]

Originally posted by Leo Volont What!? And miss my response. Sorry leo, I take back what said there about the PM Would never wanna miss a response.

[Lucifer Sam]

Who would want to miss a good story?

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Drifter well im not a protestant i am an eastern orhtodox. when you say leo that when the next christ should come and we should make him the king of the world, that paints a perfect picture of what the bible says about the coming antichrist, hell calim that he is god and rule all the nations. Even christ said that if anyone says here is the christ in this next room that know that he is false. Christ will come back in the clouds that he left. If christ wanted not to be tortured and killed why did he stop his apostle fighting the guards when they were taking him away. Yeah i disagree with alot of the protestant teachings, saying faith alone. Its like a son using his father to spoil him and pay for everything in his life and not lift a finger. Its with our deeds that we glorify christ but again our deeds should be in christs name and not to promote ourselves, thats something that the protestants lack. So you would obstruct a Messiah from being King of Kings because the Antichrist would also like to be King of the Mountain? You know, it is not that hard to make Moral Distinctions. Christ taught that we should know a Tree by its Fruit. One can know Good from Evil simply by looking at it from a Moral Perspective. In this sense, the Antichrist already Rules the World. What is Free Trade Capitalism and Secular Democratic Government but unbounded and unrestricted moral and economic exploitation? In the name of Freedom the Gates of Hell have been thrown wide open. It is no accident that the Protestant and Masonic Powers now effectively rule the World. Whatever the Protestants pretend regarding God and Religion, their effective working ambition is to foster GREED GREED GREED. And left unchecked, Greed will enslave the World. Our only protection will be to submit our Political Jurisdictions to Messianic Control -- Crown a Righteous King in order to prevent the predations of unrestricted private wealth and influence.

[Lucifer Sam]

Finding a righteous person in this world, who isn't just self righteous, is a miracle in itself. Atleast in the, King of Us All kind of sense. Being as we are human, and so on and so forth. Its like telling a bunch of monkeys that one of them better evolve real soon or there's going to be a problem.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Lucifer Sam Finding a righteous person in this world, who isn't just self righteous, is a miracle in itself. Atleast in the, King of Us All kind of sense. Being as we are human, and so on and so forth. Its like telling a bunch of monkeys that one of them better evolve real soon or there's going to be a problem. You know, your loving girl friend better watch out because, sooner or later, your all pervading cynicism is going to touch upon herself. And regarding your supposition that evil is all pervading... well, that in itself was a matter of Prophecy -- Our Lady of La Salette France, 1846, predicted that it would seem that all innocence would be lost and all moral distinctions confounded by the time of the End. However, there are still a few of us that have at least some glimmer left of the ability to make moral discernments. Besides, what REALLY is the problem with Self Righteousness. If we are to afraid of being held to a real Moral Standard... well, what really is wrong with that. Do we NOT want a morally responsible Economy, Society and Government. Does anybody truly think that the last several hundred years of corrupt administration has done so well for the World? Have the Wars and Economic Depressions been all that fun? Perhaps we could use some leadership that is Righteous and certain in their Righteousness.... which is not to be confused with the Protestant Anti-version of the Same which is a Great Sinner convinced that he is Forgiven in any and all of his Sins. True Righteousness and being convinced of being Justified in Sin is not the same thing... in fact, they are diametric opposites.

[boldtypespark]

Originally posted by Leo Volont You know, your loving girl friend better watch out because, sooner or later, your all pervading cynicism is going to touch upon herself. Heeey, dont drag anyone else into this. Keep it relevant.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Celoude Heeey, dont drag anyone else into this. Keep it relevant. Have you seen his "signature"... he is dragging his girlfriend into everything post he submits... probably his way of boosting about sexual conquest.... but it is not me who introduces her each and every time, but himself. If you want to exclude his girlfriend from every one of these discussions, then he should delete all references to her where she is not explicitly to be the subject for comment.

[Leo Volont]

I am presently the happiest person in the world because I got this gorgeous chick that I'm banging every night. You see, my measure of my own humanity is directly related to how wet I can get my dick, oh yeah!

[Lucius]

Jeez, Leo.. don't make too many assumptions. He probably really loves his girlfriend and is just trying to show this to the world And I don't mean that in a braggy kind of way.. I could be wrong but don't instantly assume the negative about him just because you don't agree with his views.. It's really too bad there is so much hostility here on this forum. I guess religion and spirituality are just touchy subjects, I understand.. and we all want to get our point across. I just wish people would have a little more understand for one another.. As for christianity and the teachings of Paul.. as I don't want to stray too off-topic: I am quite sure that this branch of religion has both it's up and downsides to many people. Like any other religion, there are probably no religion one will find 'perfect'. That is why we're always searching But, to call it satanic and the root of all evil is a little over the top.. it is the belief of millions of people you are speaking about here. Something they hold dear to them and makes them happy.. calling it satanic, false and demonic isn't very considerate towards them. Many people would feel very hurt if you would call their religion that way. Enough people get hurt in this world. The arguments and fights between protestants and catholics really break my heart. They are fighting for the very same God, the very same Jezus they both love so much. Can't they just get along and live harmoniously side by side? I think that would make God most happy, if anything. To see all of his 'children' living happily, side by side, in love and harmony. Working together to cherish the world we all share. And I don't even believe in God as quite such a concrete something, but I'm just putting it in words so that any christian might understand what I say. Yes there are many (minor and less minor) differences between the many branches of the christian religions, but so much more similiarties. More so, the core is the same. Love, for eachother, for God, for Jezus, for ourselves. On an even higher level, all the world's religions share this core of thought in some way or another. I believe 'God' is so enlightened and filled with love that he/she/it does not care for those differences that start the fights. He/she/it cares mostly for love and the happiness of everything and everybody. Well, of course it cares for cultural traditions and differences, but what I'm trying to say is that it won't ever condemn people like that or cast them to hell, or put them off as satanic or foolish as we often do. I'm not saying this is true.. but if it really is enlightened, that would be my idea of it.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Lucius Jeez, Leo.. But, to call it satanic and the root of all evil is a little over the top.. it is the belief of millions of people you are speaking about here. Something they hold dear to them and makes them happy.. calling it satanic, false and demonic isn't very considerate towards them. Many people would feel very hurt if you would call their religion that way. Well, yes, and this is exactly why I feel this is such an important issue, that, INDEED, millions of People do suppose that they are exercising a Religious Belief when in fact they are proposing and condoning a System of Evil. It is not as though I have not explained my point here. These people ALL believe that it was GOOD to Murder Jesus, so that they could Sin and be Forgiven for it. Is that really morally responsible? Would we want these people to murder any Modern Messiah for the same considerations? If it would be wrong now, then it must have been wrong then. And, honestly, I think that once this is thoroughly explained to all these Millions of People -- once they understand the Moral Disgrace of condoning what is actually an Anti-Religion, then they will certainly change their minds, that is, those who have been mislead by their incapacity to do any real thinking on their own. You see, many people have never really thought about it. But, then, there ARE people who take great advantage of Evil Doctrine. I have seen bumper stickers that as much as say "I can do any damned thing I want because I AM FORGIVEN". There can be no moral excuse for a Religion that fosters, condones and promotes Evil for the sake of boosting Membership Dues.

[InTheMoment]

Originally posted by Leo Out Of Left Field I am presently the happiest person in the world because I got this gorgeous chick that I'm banging every night. You see, my measure of my own humanity is directly related to how wet I can get my dick, oh yeah! I love it when Leo is low on his meds.

[Gwendolyn]

Leo, it is indeed really funny that the only way you could possibly win an argument is by using baseless insuts and big words to intimidate. You're a real big man, huh? Well, my verdict is, you are full of it. I used to think the things you said, actually (sometimes) made sense, in a self-righteous sort of way. Now, you're getting to be kind of insane. So, unless you have something to say directly to me, why don't you keep me out of your bullshit? Thank you, in advance.

[Lucifer Sam]

I don't know why you have to turn conflicts in our views into personal vendettas every time we argue Leo. I don't know you, and I know you don't know me. So how about being nice? Lets not let discussion turn into trying to pull the wool over anyone's eveys, or hurling insults around like a monkey with fresh doo. I'm pretty sure you violated the forum rule posted above, and I am going to complain about it. You're just plain rude sometimes. That doesn't do much for getting your point of view across either.

[wasup]

Unfortunately this forum is left unmoderated so the moderators wont' really ban him for things in here At least Leo gives us some comic relief here.

[Lucifer Sam]

You are posting in the Religious Discussion Forum of Dream Views. Please note that although this forum is left unmoderated, we request that you still adhere to some rudimentary level of human decency when posting.[/b] I think they will have something to say about it, considering what it is he said.

[Gwendolyn]

Originally posted by ataraxis Unfortunately this forum is left unmoderated so the moderators wont' really ban him for things in here At least Leo gives us some comic relief here. Yeah, luv. Don't take it too seriously. He's just Leo.

[Lucius]

Yeah, don't worry.. you'll get used to his way of saying things.. In any case, trying for the discussion again.. I understand your point, Leo. I too would consider a doctrine that says 'jezus died for us so we can all sin endlessly and still go to heaven anyway' somewhat selfish and an easy way out. But I really don't think this what most protestants believe? I always thought they meant that Jezus died for the sins of our ancestors, so we could live without the burden of their sins. Regardless, we are still responsible for our sins, that is to say the ones we commit right now, in the present. They don't mean a free ticket to heaven or anything. Correct me if I'm wrong. But in any case, do you really believe all protestants and everything about this branch of religion is evil and corrupted? Surely there are many among them that are just as kind and loving as any catholic or person of any other religion. Just as devoted to God and their religion. It would be unfair *at the very least and put politely) to say they are evil and followers of the anti-christ. In fact, I could throw some very rude remarks about the way you speak off them but I won't. You've got enough people against you. But, when it comes down to it. Again, I don't believe that if there even is anything out there to judge us (besides ourselves) then it will never judge us for our spiritual believes as long as they don't cause us to harm others or ourselves. I wish the relatively minor differences between religions and sub-religions of a branch would be seen as interesting and beautiful, instead of evil and wrong by members of other religions.. just like cultural differences (fortunately some people do). By all means, I'd rather have a loving, kind, fun, warm hearted protestant than a cold and judgemental catholic by my side.. but vice versa as well. I don't like judging people by their religion or faith.

[Seeker]

Originally posted by Leo Volont Have you seen his "signature"... he is dragging his girlfriend into everything post he submits... probably his way of boosting about sexual conquest.... but it is not me who introduces her each and every time, but himself. If you want to exclude his girlfriend from every one of these discussions, then he should delete all references to her where she is not explicitly to be the subject for comment. Leo, please reference the verbage at the top of each thread: You are posting in the Religious Discussion Forum of Dream Views. Please note that although this forum is left unmoderated, we request that you still adhere to some rudimentary level of human decency when posting. [/b] It is perfectly acceptable to argue about the fine points of why or why not Paul was evil, but, when it degenerates into personal attacks, attacks irrelevant to the topic, then it is just plain petty and WRONG. Every time you do something like this, you not only anger the other fine people of this forum, you also hurt your credibility.

[wombing]

Jesus might have said, "I became man for you. If you do not become God for me, you wrong me." Meister Eckhart jesus is only a symbol. many paulist "christians" have turned him into a willing sacrifice offered to some strange god who somehow faults us for being flawed creations. personally, i find jesus to be meaningful only in the sense that he was a mere human who represents the potential inhererent in us all..the potential to be perfect Love. the ability to real-ize that we create our own inner landscape, and co-create either heaven or hell with our cosmic siblings. ----- seriously, isn't the time in human history past for blood sacrifices, and wrathful deities, and all that jazz?...