A message for theists/atheists alike...

(copied from my response in another thread)

I think by even saying, thinking of, or trying to conceive the mere concept of god is an excercise in futility and honestly quite silly. Our feeble minds cant handle an intangible concept like that. Its like trying to understand the concept of 'nothing'. Saying the word gives it substance making it 'something' (tangible) or in other words, non-existant. Anyone that claims to understand that concept is lying, period.

The following taken from, "If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him! --- The Pilgrimage Of Psychotherapy Patients" by Sheldon B. Kopp. Bantam Books, 1972. (p187-197))

"The Zen Master warns: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" This admonition points up the fact that no meaning that comes from outside of ourselves is real! Philosophy, religion, patriotism, all are empty idols. The only meaning in our lives is what we each bring to them. Killing the Buddha on the road means destroying the hope that anything outside of ourselves can be our master! No one is any "bigger" than anyone else. There are no "mothers" and "fathers" for grown-ups, only "sisters" and "brothers!"

We must each give up the Master, without giving up the search for TRUTH!"

I also dont understand why people like to give god a personality like hes some sort of father figure sitting atop his throne watching us, smiling or scorning. A personality would mean hes somehow driven, with motives which makes him flawed because an omnipotent man/creature would have no need for motives since that would be selfish, equating to a lack of power. So thinking that god is cognitive in any way is utterly ridiculous. On those tough cold nights where people seek solace in their talks to 'god', they've only succeeded in creating a nice crutch with their imaginations, thats all. If that suits them, then wonderful, but dont push it on others. Whats good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.

I think Star Wars' Yoda said it best when explaining reality as being tied together through 'The Force'. "...the tree, the rock..." etc. This Force is very similar to the Hindu concept of the One or the Universe (in essence Om). In Hinduism it is said that we are all part of the One, just like what Yoda said about the Force.

I dont think there is any great mystery in saying we are all connected somehow. Even scientists could agree that energy can never be created or destroyed, so therefore we must've all came from a 'Force' of some kind. I dont think this 'Force' is benevolent or malevolent in any particular way. It is, what it is... reality. A compendium of good and bad forces... without one the other would cease to have meaning or exist. Therefore, blaming 'god' for all the suffering would be exactly the same as, thanking 'god' for happiness. In order to experience happiness you must also experience or know the meaning of its opposite. Without Hate, there is no Love. Its the balance of those opposites that is this reality...

In closing, I dont believe in any theoretical doctrine nor do I care if you want to rip into what I just posted. Im posting as a skeptical non-believer (in other words a 'questioner') that realizes there are unexplainable 'Forces' out there whether you choose to believe them or not. I dont know the answers and really no one does, thats the beauty of it.

Although, it seems to me that both fronts in this forum seem to enjoy berating each other, so I dont expect anyone to agree with me or support me in any way, shape, or form.

I just thought Id post some food for thought, is all ;)

East versus West again.

Ever wondered if baby's born in the East look at their mother as a diper changing, milk supplying force? Ever wondered if babies in the West look at their mother as an all-powerful, all-knowing being? I think we could learn from babies in this regard.

East or West babies know that its Mom is both a being to love and a force for spankings. The more we study the farther we get from what we already really knew at the first.

My response can be seen in the other thread. :D

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Originally posted by woody
East versus West again.

Ever wondered if baby's born in the East look at their mother as a diper changing, milk supplying force? Ever wondered if babies in the West look at their mother as an all-powerful, all-knowing being? I think we could learn from babies in this regard.

East or West babies know that its Mom is both a being to love and a force for spankings. The more we study the farther we get from what we already really knew at the first.

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I don't know if that analogy is very fitting fo this forum woody most do not know they have a mother.

where have u been???????? k that's all I have to say.

If there was a god indeed it wouldn't have a personallity. And it would be impossible for us to truely grasp, like infinity.

yay 4 teh antikrist

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Originally Posted by SolSkye;

*farts this thread up to the top*
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I actually laughed at my own reply. I can't remember posting that :)

Yeah, it's funny to watch our replies evolve or change over the years. I originally joined this forum attempting to be all politically correct and shiat. Pfft. An impossible task when surrounded by pompousness that won't quit. Forget that noise. :P

so, you dont have a personal opinion on this? What is the nature of your Force?

If I knew that, like many zen monks, I would cease be in this realm, my friend. People that claim to know the absolute truth of all things but still exist here is, in itself, ironic and hypocritical at best. Naturally, I have my ideas but up until the day I die I'll be trying to answer that question, as anyone should be.

I agree with you. :goodjob2:

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Originally Posted by SolSkye

I think by even saying, thinking of, or trying to conceive the mere concept of god is an excercise in futility and honestly quite silly.
Merlin: then why do you seek an understanding of a god?

This admonition points up the fact that no meaning that comes from outside of ourselves is real!
Merlin: If you were right, then it is impossible for anyone to accept what would be true advice. Every zen master would be doing others a disservice by giving what would be an external truth, making it unreal.

A personality would mean hes somehow driven, with motives which makes him flawed because an omnipotent man/creature would have no need for motives since that would be selfish, equating to a lack of power. So thinking that god is cognitive in any way is utterly ridiculous.
Merlin: If an entity were omnipotent, it would be able to feel a motive, or become driven. under your logic, this would deprive said entity of its omnipotent status. At any rate, sentiance does not equate to omnipotance.

I dont think this 'Force' is benevolent or malevolent in any particular way. It is, what it is... reality.
Merlin: You hold this to be an empirical truth, but according to your own arguments, such a force is unknowable.

Can you explain or elaborate on these seemingly contradictory statements?

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I said later I have my ideas of what things are but ultimately will be searching for the real answer my entire time here

But you state that to do so would be 'an excercise in futility and honestly quite silly."

If the end result can't be achieved, why do you still search?

I know that this thread says for 'theists/atheists' but I have some questions in relation to the idea of the eastern 'One'. Its always left me puzzled and confused as to why the 'One' is never viewed as 'God' when I can easily see them as one and the same.

I remember watching an eastern cartoon where the most supreme being in the universe, the 'first' being who is 'one' with all life throughout the entire universe, a loving force, asked a group of humans to help battle some evil bad guy. When the humans approached this being, that they were already apart of, they were in awe, and they asked "Are you God?" and the being said "No, I am not God. And there is no such thing as God." It left me really flabbergasted!

I know its just a cartoon, but, I mean, how did that supreme universal entity not fit in the definition of God? I know that some see the 'One' as being conscious that is omnipresent, and I know that others use the 'One' to refer to the sum of all consciousness.

So my question is, in the case of that One being conscious, how is it not, God? I realize the eastern personality of this God is completely different from the western personality of a 'masculine' God who judges humanity and sends people to hell. Is this the reason why? Does it have to do with the idea of a creator? Does it have to do with Jesus?

I think if the east were to say it is God, it could change the point of view of christianity as a whole. It can change the Christian God from a sexist Zeus sitting on a cloud to, a truly omnipresent being that is universal. When I changed my point of view adopting eastern beliefs, things made more sense - including Jesus's teaches which seem to be forgotten in christianity as a whole.

Merlin: for lack of anything better to do and boredom. Life in itself is a contradiction so any truth would also be.


juroara: It's not viewed as 'god' because that's giving finite substance to something that can't possibly be grasped in our lifetime, let alone something as simple as dog spelled backwards. You give something a name, you essentially give it a limit, a boundry.

I see, that makes sense I guess. thanks for answering

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Originally Posted by juroara

Its always left me puzzled and confused as to why the 'One' is never viewed as 'God' when I can easily see them as one and the same.
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That is exactly what Hindus believe to be God and what Taoists and Zen-Buddhists treat sort of like a God. I think that if there actually is a God, it is what you described. My perhaps acid flashback experience at the Memphis Zoo where I saw exactly that as it has been described by the Eastern philosophers really makes me question things. It makes me say, "Hmmm...," more than any other experience I have ever had.

My arguments about God are always about the Judeo-Christian-Islamic idea of God. The oneness of everything that is a manifestation of nothingness and has the nature of consciousness as its fabric is much more conceivable to me. I just don't typically refer to it as "God" because I don't see it as something that demands worship and gets pissed off over little things that he knowingly set into motion.

True dat. :thumbup: