Faith

[DoctorNick]

I have this problem with faith. I really want to be theistic and practice a religion, but it just all seems like hogwash to me. I'm a very rational person, presently at least, and organized religion gets too strange for me at times. The more I try to understand it, the more I can't make sense of it. Faith = belief and trust in God Faith then presupposes the existence of God. I have not found any evidential proof of the existence of God. Yet I am told, by both Muslims and Christians, that God will reveal himself to me if I have faith. Doesn't that mean God is a creation of our own minds? He doesn't come into existence until we believe in Him? I used to believe that God was this guy sitting on a cloud controlling the world. Then I learned about the expanses of the universe and that image was washed away. Now I want to believe, but I just can't. They say just believe, and the truth will be clear. But I just can't. When the truth is clear, I believe.

[InTheMoment]

Why do you want to practice a religion?

[DoctorNick]

all the interesting theists I know find such comfort and pleasure from their religions. I feel like I'm missing out

[InTheMoment]

If your trying to fill a void in your life, there are a lot more viable options than succumbing to a particular dogma. You seem to have a very sensible head on your shoulders and based on what you said earlier, it seems you have come to realize what god really is: Doesn't that mean God is a creation of our own minds? He doesn't come into existence until we believe in Him?[/b] Once you achieve that knowledge, it's near impossible to believe wholeheartedly in a higher power. Unless of course your one of those people that sets their clocks forward 15 minutes in order to be on time. ~

[Worlds Within]

Originally posted by DoctorNick I have this problem with faith. I really want to be theistic and practice a religion, but it just all seems like hogwash to me. I'm a very rational person, presently at least, and organized religion gets too strange for me at times. The more I try to understand it, the more I can't make sense of it. Faith = belief and trust in God Faith then presupposes the existence of God. I have not found any evidential proof of the existence of God. Yet I am told, by both Muslims and Christians, that God will reveal himself to me if I have faith. Doesn't that mean God is a creation of our own minds? He doesn't come into existence until we believe in Him? I used to believe that God was this guy sitting on a cloud controlling the world. Then I learned about the expanses of the universe and that image was washed away. Now I want to believe, but I just can't. They say just believe, and the truth will be clear. But I just can't. When the truth is clear, I believe. Hi DoctorNick, I went through different phases of spiritual practice. I was reared in a sort of Christian environment. I was a fundamentalist Christian for a while, then went through a phase of atheism, and now I'm sort of an agnostic. I'm open to the possibility of deity or deities of some sort. As far as a monotheistic deity, I ask myself "If an omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipresent God wanted to make Himself known, He would have no problem. So it's possible that deity is keeping a low profile for whatever reason or lack thereof. The reason could be anything, such as "God made the earth for class insecta", or perhaps there is no personal deity, or perhaps the atheists are right. In the end, I don't worry about it. Everything has always worked out for me, and I'm confident it will continue to as well. (I'm sort of in rambling mode.) I think Buddhism has a lot going for it, but that's just my opinion. I attended the Alfred E. Neuman Theological Seminary for one semester, btw.

[Lucius]

Try listen to your own heart and soul instead of trying to find one 'religion' that seems to suit your fancy I personally believe in a 'human religion', a religion that anybody of any background or culture can understand. A religion of love, compassion and caring. But this isn't a religion at all.. its a very human concept that fits easily into spirituality. I think what you are looking for is just a little spirituality in your life You don't have to get involved into organized religion to feel this kind of fulfilment you speak off. My heart and also logic tell me that the one thing that all humans and religion have in common is love. Love (in a very broad sense, not just romantic love) is what makes us one (god is love, jezus is love, buddha is love etc). The more love there is, the happier we are. Pretty logical to me. So logically, our faith should be based on these values above all. Who cares about silly rules, as long as you're not hurting anybody, why would anybody care? I don't really want to go and tell you a story about what I believe though =P That wasn't the point of the topic. But what I'm trying to say is.. I think what you want is just a little spirituality. To be at peace with yourself and everything around you I think that religion is really the abstract and symbolic form of 'real' spirituality. Its just how it was back then when they were created. It's easier for most people to grasp god where he pictured as a person then him just being 'everything' and/or 'love'. Oh man I'm tired.. I was going to bed but I saw your topic and I just felt like I had to reply. Just listen to your heart, find comfort in simple things you feel you understand and can draw happiness from. Things you feel will help you along your life path, help you find peace, and help others. When you find certain things in certain religions that you feel are what you need, don't be afraid to just pick puzzle pieces from different religion and make your own, bigger puzzle What is important to me is that I let go of absolute truth and don't bother trying to 'know it all'. It's quite frankly impossible. Love yourself and others, and things will come naturally on your path. Take puzzle pieces as they come, and build your own puzzle. It's just so much prettier and useful to you as a soul than a premade one. Besides, all the premade ones are just pieces to a bigger puzzle.. and even the one you make yourself will keep leading to bigger and bigger puzzles. But hey if you find a religion that makes you happy.. that's fine too! Oh man I must be tired talking of puzzzzzles. I'm so sorry if my post confuses you. Like I said I'm very tired and am having a seriously difficult time formulating what I'm trying to say. Probably repeating myself too Anyway, take care man hope you find what you are looking for And if you think 'screw this' you can always just see the beauty in life and live it.. being an atheist is not a sin. Whatever works for your personal growth

[AirRick101]

I personally think you are freer without a religion. You can still honestly think for yourself. I often wanted to know what life was like without the constraints of Christianity, but I just grew up with it, and it's been hammered deep inside of me. It sounds like you might be stressing over it, don't worry about it. You can't force it. These type of belief conversions happen out of randomness and luck, you can't really bring it on yourself. But instead, see everything in the Bible as a metaphor. God (usually) is supposed as a model figure when it came to morality (except the questionable orders to various humans in the Old testament wars). But like Lucius said, look inside yourself.

[Amethyst Star]

(This is going to be kind of disorganized so I apologize in advance) I have to disagree that everything in the Bible is a metaphor. While many things are symbolic, some things just mean exactly what they mean. "Love your neighbor as yourself." Kind of hard to argue with that. As "Christian" as it may sound, most things related to God are "spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14) and without the Spirit of God, many people just won't understand. And before you think I'm just speaking Christianese, the way I've found that God speaks to me is when I'm praying or writing. Eventually I'll start saying things or writing things and I'll stop and think, "How did I come at this conclusion?" But it makes sense! I normally wouldn't think of such things on my own, but by simply talking to God I am able to understand more than I normally would on my own. I think that the best definition for faith is taken right from Hebrews 11:1 Faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see.[/b] Therefore, faith is something that every human possesses, whether they realize it or not. We have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow; we have faith that our hearts will keep beating; we have faith that we are, in fact, breathing air; we have faith that the pilot who's flying our aircraft won't crash it. To be honest, faith isn't a prerequisite for God to make Himself known. God is everywhere and in all things (though all things are not God). By having faith in God, while I can't see exactly where He's going to take me, I am trusting that He knows exactly where He wants me to go. I'd rather have someone who knows leading the way than trusting myself and my limited intillect. As far as Christianity being a \"feel good\" religion, it's different than you may think. There are days when I just feel rotten, and while I trust in God to pull me through tough times, we're not exempt from trials and temptations. I go through college just like every other college student does. The main difference is that I have someone to rely upon who is constantly telling me, \"Just a little bit further. You can do this.\" A man once said: The Christian life isn't hard; it's impossible.[/b] "Just believe," doesn't cut it in the life of a Christian, either. We are called to grow in our relationships with Jesus Christ, and just like in any relationship, something has to be done. You learn more about the other person; there's love; there's trust. In a perfect relationship, you would trust the other person to do anything they asked because you knew that they wouldn't have you do anything harmful to yourself or to others. I think that God loves it when we understand what He's talking about, but sometimes I think he says to all of us, "I would like you to trust without understanding." God isn't subject to logic or reason; He's above it. Try picturing eternity. I wish this was more organized. Some day I may go back and make more sense about it, but it's time for bed. -Amé

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Ame I have to disagree that everything in the Bible is a metaphor. While many things are symbolic, some things just mean exactly what they mean. \"Love your neighbor as yourself.\" Kind of hard to argue with that. Ok, here's my question (and I'm not trying to be argumentative). Why is it that two equally devout Christians can come to completely different conclusions about which parts of the Bible are literal, and which parts are symbolic? Without a strict mechanism to determine which are literal and which are symbolic, the interpretations by Christians are no more valid than if I were to pick passages at random and assign them into \"literal\" and \"symbolic\" categories. Originally posted by Ame+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ame)</div> Therefore, faith is something that every human possesses, whether they realize it or not. We have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow; we have faith that our hearts will keep beating; we have faith that we are, in fact, breathing air; we have faith that the pilot who's flying our aircraft won't crash it.[/b] Having faith that our pilot isn't going to run us into a mountain is quite a bit different than having faith in an invisible all-powerful being that created and controls the universe. To assume this to be true and then suggest (sometimes even legislate) that this entity should be worshipped and sacrificed to is even more ludicrous. Originally posted by Ame@ I'd rather have someone who knows leading the way than trusting myself and my limited intillect. Therein lies the essence of all religion and spirituality. It's nothing more than a crutch. <!--QuoteBegin-Ame God isn't subject to logic or reason; He's above it. Oh really? How convenient...well I guess that solves all the problems then doesn't it? I have one question, above all others, that I'd like you to answer; do you acknowledge the possibility that gOD may not exist?

[syzygy]

The exoteric forms of religion are only a false comfort supported by habit and an unfounded sense of community if one does not have the internal strength to look inside themselves, reflect, and take responsibility for their own transformation. This will result in a personal, inner experience that has no match for any type of blind faith. For those who are truely doing this, the symbols of one or multiple religions can be a powerful aid to help them understand what is going on inside themselves. People forget that faith is actually a secondary phenomenon arising from the fact that something happened in the first place to give them that trust!!! If all you have is blind faith, you have started digging your own grave. This inner experience isn't going to happen all by itself, it requires effort on your part. You have to seriously question yourself, which can be very difficult, but the knowledge you will gain by doing this has no equivalent and will completely change your life, but that's the point isn't it?

[Lucius]

Spirituality can definitely have logic and reason But it will be up to you to mix them together and find a simple, understandable spirituality for yourself. One you can live with and one you can understand. I tend to be slightly agnostic about things, I take things as they come. I open myself to everything and take time and effort to learn things. And when I find out that one of my beliefs aren't right (for me) I simply look and learn to find something new. This way, I find more and more peace over time without claiming to know and clinging to absolute truth. In the end, the truth might turn out to be entirely different.. but I'll simply adjust without clinging to my old beliefs. My simple, logical believe in a universal, unconditional love for myself and others is the only thing I really hang on to. Because wherever I go and whatever I do and however the universe turns out to work.. it works and helps me, and other people, live a happier life. And instead of finding out how the universe works I prefer to find peace with myself and what is, if my state of mind is peace or 'heaven' then heaven can be anywhere. If you are absolutely clinging to the fact that when you die you go to heaven and meet jezus you might be very dissapointed when you die, or when you are absolute sure that when you die you'll dissappear for ever, you might be very shocked. Recovering would take a lot of time. However, if you just find inner peace and love and accept whatever you are going to find and keep an open mind, heart and soul, I feel you'll live a happy life with lots of beauty and adventure of learning and discovering. And when you die, it doesn't really matter what exactly is going to happen.. because you are free from this idea. Even if you cease to exist, you'll have peace with that. That's just what I think. I think you should feel or think whatever you want, as long as you don't hurt anybody or yourself. Unless that's your fetish of course.. But you know what I mean

[R.Carter]

Originally posted by DoctorNick They say just believe, and the truth will be clear. But I just can't. When the truth is clear, I believe. Seems to me the truth is already clear to you. Believe in yourself and your abilities. Fill any void you feel with knowledge. Worship your brain ! And Lucius is right, love is the common thread. You don't need a theology to practice that. Above all, in my opinion, bear the responsibility of your actions. Too many people are content to put things in the hands of a " higher power ". Peace.

[Genjyo]

Hi DoctorNick, I'm glad that you're thinking this through. Everyone is looking for this: Truth! There is not much benefit in doing something that is untruthful especially if it is the way to lead one's life. Religion to me is more than something to give us peace of mind, a purpose, and happiness. While it accomplishes that it is also grounded in reality, makes true claims about who we are as human beings, who God is, and how we relate to God. Peace!

[Kaniaz]

Why is it that two equally devout Christians can come to completely different conclusions about which parts of the Bible are literal, and which parts are symbolic? Without a strict mechanism to determine which are literal and which are symbolic, the interpretations by Christians are no more valid than if I were to pick passages at random and assign them into \"literal\" and \"symbolic\" categories.[/b] Veering ever so slightly off topic here (sue me!) but it's always struck me how versatile the Bible can be when it comes under fire for anything said in it. If there is a passage that can somehow be proved completely out there (OK, there is a whole lot of that) then a bit of twiddling and without changing a single word of what is said in the Bible, that passage immediately becomes symbolic instead of literal. Invalidating the comment. I think it's rather arresting that, if we were to write down everything the Bible says in a simple form - e.g. Jesus made it rain frogs - when what was said was literal, and then "Jesus showed them, symbolically, the power of God through the plagues", you'd very quickly build up very different revisions of the same book, all telling a significantly different story. Through this, I think the Bible has very much become an invincible book. You won't find scientific books (for example) open to this 'symbolism' and tweaking, and that's where the contrasts begin, and probably why the Bible has lasted that much longer and had more of an impact on people than, say, Issac Newton's Principa or whatever.* Finally, you get people that "don't do" the symbolism and really do believe that Adam and Eve were just two people that magically made us all, and that it rained frogs - at that point you kind of give up. * Notwithstanding the fact the Bible does have a massive following, it promises you seven kinds of luxury and twelve kinds of torture, and is actually a bunch of books all meshed together. (I forget how many - 57?)

[Amethyst Star]

Originally posted by bradybaker I have one question, above all others, that I'd like you to answer; do you acknowledge the possibility that gOD may not exist? Yes, I've considered that, though probably not to the extent that you have, brady. I just see too much each day that there points to someone orchestrating it all. -Amé

[DREAM_WEAVER]

In the end, the truth might turn out to be entirely different.. but I'll simply adjust without clinging to my old beliefs. [/b] If the end is death then it will be too late to \"simply adjust\" because you will be in hell I personally think you are freer without a religion.[/b] Religion should not be looked at as a restraint. Religion is Freedom from sin and earthly temptations and if you are devout then you shouldnt look upon rules as restraints but as guides.

[Lucius]

If there is such a thing as 'hell', the lake of fire etc like the bible describes it.. and if it really casts people in there like some people say it does... then I honestly don't think heaven is such a good place either. I'd question god's state of enlightment hehe.. it doesn't make sense. Heaven would not be a place of unconditional love, compassion and kindness. It would not be filled with light and joy.. because all the people that really practice those things are up in hell. =P All heaven would be is judgment. I really wasn't trying to say that I just adjust myself coviently to whatever it turns out to be.. what I was trying to say is that I don't cling to something, and go with the flow. And when something comes to me, I take that chance and learn whatever I can. And carry on again..and learn more. And more. We are growing and learning endlessly. Growing and finding wisdom is just one big adventure Fun too. Again.. 'God' is enlightened and filled with light. I think he knows no judgment like that. His/her/its love is unconditional and true to everybody. Not only to those who worship him/her/it. And not only to those who know how every little bit of the universe works.. that is also part of what I'm trying to say. I don't claim to know it all, and I don't think we can right now. There is so much out there.. I can only open myself to it and learn as much as I can. Yes, I do think there is a 'hell'. But its personal and a state of mind, nothing you can't escape. Hell can be here, in the afterlife, anywhere. Just as heaven can be anywhere.. It just takes a little bit more shape over there than it does here.

[Sortilegio]

I only read the first post cause I'm tired, so if anything I say has already been said then first. Faith = Believing in something blinded and given to it not Faith = Believing in god(it could be anything) second. Why a theist? It seems to me you want to form part of an ideology, it doesn't necesarly has to be a religous one(not that I'm against religion) third. You should consider more studying teology(if you want to be a theist) and deside where to part off. You should also reach into your soul(so to speak) and find what is your actual state in mind and spirit before deciding to do anything. And again, studying is the key word, you shouldn't form part of any ideology if you're an ignorant on it. Four. Study, learn, reach within your spirit, find that road you're looking for

[Seeker]

I usually don't post in here, but it seems to have calmed down into a place where reasonable conversation can occur. By all means, please pursue faith! It doesn't matter at this point whether you believe in a diety or not. I have found that the journey is almost always more important than the destination. Does God exist? Is God a construct of the human imagination? You will get different answers depending on who you ask. The point I am trying to make is, do not take the word of others as to Gods existance. Seek him/her on your own, you will be much happier with knowledge you have gained by yourself. This journey will not be a short one, neither will it be an easy one, be prepared to spend a significant part of your life on the journey. I suspect that you will bounce back and forth between faith and non-faith many times on the journey, as have I. Happy Journey!

[DREAM_WEAVER]

If there is such a thing as 'hell', the lake of fire etc like the bible describes it.. and if it really casts people in there like some people say it does... then I honestly don't think heaven is such a good place either.[/b] Why wouldnt heaven be such a good place either? The alternative is hell and it dosent get much worse than that. There isnt judgement in heaven because you have already been judged before God and are now pure and able to be in his presence. You no longer feel the temptation of sin as you would on earth. Seeker is right about your need to seek God. If you truly seek him he will be revealed to you either by general or special revelation.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by DREAM_WEAVER If you truly seek him he will be revealed to you either by general or special revelation. In other words, you have to believe in gOD to believe in gOD.

[Lucius]

I'm not saying heaven would be a bad place.. but I would think that god's perfect realm would be a little more.. unconditional. Because basically, what a lot of people say is that if you love everybody unconditionally (relatively anyway), live in peace, have an open mind, try and understand and accept etc, but dont worship 'god', you'll go to hell anyway. Whereas if your worship god and don't do all those things (and no if you follow those rules you can't love unconditionally, its apparently not allowed you go to heaven. Now what I mean is, the people I would like to be in heaven are going to be in hell. Which ultimately is going to make hell a beter place. With all those sweet, loving, light filled souls hell can't stay hell forever you know Heaven, would be nothing more than one big christian/jew/muslim (whichever belief would turn out to be right) community with no cultural differences or variety, because all the people that were born and raised with lets say an eastern or tribal religion go to hell.. nevermind that they can't help it, or that such is not exactly fair or just hehe. ps I'm not bashing christians or any other belief.. because I know a lot of them don't believe in that anyway. But some do.. I know that those other christians would agree with me that 'god' will allow any good hearted soul into heaven, not just those who worship him and follow every rule.

[DREAM_WEAVER]

Because basically, what a lot of people say is that if you love everybody unconditionally (relatively anyway), live in peace, have an open mind, try and understand and accept etc, but dont worship 'god', you'll go to hell anyway.[/b] All of those things are very good characteristics to have, but the key into heaven is Jesus Christ and believing that he died for our sins. Everyone struggles with earthly temptation (Even great christians) but if you truly have the spirit of Jesus in you then you will strive to do all of those things (love everyone unconditionally, have an open mind..exc). Being just a good person alone can not get you into heaven. Sorry, im not trying to be argumentative, im just trying to explain my religion

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by DREAM_WEAVER if you truly have the spirit of Jesus in you then you will strive to do all of those things (love everyone unconditionally, have an open mind..exc). Being just a good person alone can not get you into heaven. What about these people? Imagine a kid living in the slums of a third world country. This kid is a great person, cares for others, provides for his family, he's generous, loving, yada yada yada. However, because of his geographic location and local non-christian belief systems he's never heard of Jesus. Then, one day he's out getting a loaf of bread for his family and he's shot and killed, caught in the crossfire of a local gang war, Is this kid going to hell? A child is born severly autistic, she'll never even be able to grasp the concepts of up and down let alone Jesus Christ and spirituality, will this girl go to hell when she dies?

[Lucius]

Originally posted by DREAM_WEAVER All of those things are very good characteristics to have, but the key into heaven is Jesus Christ and believing that he died for our sins. Everyone struggles with earthly temptation (Even great christians) but if you truly have the spirit of Jesus in you then you will strive to do all of those things (love everyone unconditionally, have an open mind..exc). Being just a good person alone can not get you into heaven. I see what mean.. however, if the spirit of Jezus (and God) is unconditionally loving.. that means he would not just let those that believe in him, into heaven. That wouldn't be unconditional. Of course, 'unconditional' would mean letting murderers into heaven.. that wouldn't make sense either. But, that is why I believe in reincarnation and the concept of a personal hell/heaven. In the end, we all end up in heaven Again, I believe that Jezus Christ, if he ever did existed, is an enlightened soul and beyond anything that we can grasp.. he loves unconditionally and without judgment. He doesn't care who believes in him and who doesn't. I also believe we are all equal to him, we're just on a different part of the path on our spiritual journey ---- But, then I would like to ask you, where do all those people mentioned earlier go, then? If not heaven. Like I said, if so many good hearted, sweet, loving souls go to hell ultimately hell would be a better place. Unless they are all tied up and being whiped..