Thread: The Eternal Authority

To me, asserting the afterlife as a reality without any cogent evidence strikes me as an airy-fairy, quixotic approach. We all want things to be a certain way because if they are not, well, it's just sad. We would all like to see Afghanistan safe from the clutches of the Taliban and Ukraine free from the Russian menace that looms at its borders and has now begun to attack. But facts don't care about feelings. Bad things will happen regardless. A whole nation—men, women and children—suffering the severe adverse effects of warfare is not tough love, it is an atrocity even in the long run; the face of a soldier who has survived the hardships of a world war is quite telling (the countenance often expresses a broken soul, as it were).

I cannot see, for instance, what kind of lesson can be derived by a father in a situation where his daughter has been raped; it is something too horrible to take place just so that a 'lesson' is learned by the parties involved. Surely, even prior to the rape, the father can already imagine such horridly daunting scenario and how awful it would be if it were to befall his daughter. We can all imagine worst case scenarios! There is absolutely no good reason for rape to take place other than someone perverse is getting their jollies from a heinous crime because anyone who isn't a psychopath can imagine how detrimental to one's health and sanity such an act can be. In fact, the psycho will relish the victims' suffering and enjoy the power he has over them.

I absolutely do not see, by any stretch of the imagination, how such calamities are the only way in which people can 'learn' other than to say that, often, what doesn't kill you naturally makes you stronger—and even though one naturally develops a thicker skin, some scars never heal. Here's the impact losing loved ones can have on someone:

'The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens. But it is never gone.'
~Rose Kennedy.

So, sorry to say, MoonageDaydream, but I vehemently disagree with your worldview. I also would ask VVilliam which part of God's reply to Job is caring other than belittling him before a vast and dangerous world. As I said before, I don't see Job's godly answer coming from any external divine source other than a voice in his head reflecting a deep realisation that bad things happen to good and bad people. So Job, knowing he cannot rely on the blessing of some imaginary heavenly father, develops a conscience that will help him navigate through life, a sort of personal salvation, and thus the parable of Christ follows ...

So, sorry to say, MoonageDaydream, but I vehemently disagree with your world view. I also would ask VVilliam which part of God's reply to Job is caring other than belittling him before a vast and dangerous world. As I said before, I don't see Job's godly answer coming from any external divine source other than a voice in his head reflecting a deep realisation that bad things happen to good and bad people. So Job, knowing he cannot rely on the blessing of some imaginary heavenly father, develops a conscience that will help him navigate through life, a sort of personal salvation, and thus the parable of Christ follows ...

Let us not forget that Job - in developing his realization, only came closer to his God in his relationship with his God.
He did not use use the experience to develop a thick skin or lack of empathy or as a reason to become a nontheist.

Those are legitimate points which should be on the table as well.

I think you are missing the point about my Jungian exegesis here, VVilliam, and I do think your point is not valid in the slightest.

I don't see the Biblical parables as objective realities, I see them as psychological events. Job precisely came to the realisation that just being a good person isn't sufficient! That's the whole point of the parable! He matured from a phase where he thought just being good before an invisible/imaginary heavenly father would be enough to impress to a more realistic and pragmatic outlook about the world where the goods to be reaped from the land aren't going to sow themselves, so to speak—and he was happier for it as evidenced by the tenfold prosperity that unraveled post-realisation. His experience precisely made him develop a thicker skin after the calamitous events (proverbially, Satan's input) in his life and he only got 'closer to God' in the sense that he improved his relationship with the world around him (as it is said, 'God is everywhere').

I see that you've smuggled in 'lack of empathy' as if it's anywhere near the same ballpark as 'developing a thick skin'—it isn't. Just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean he or she lacks empathy any more than being a Muslim automatically aligns your beliefs with the intolerant and psychotic ISIS ideology. In fact, many serial killers exhibit religious beliefs and yet lack empathy for everybody else. Do you honestly believe that all atheists necessarily lack empathy and that they are all crying at the prospect of death being final?

Bearing in mind what happened to Job, I'd like you to picture such scenario happening to you, only you discover that the disease you've been infected with and the torture and murder of some of the people you love and care about were the result of a bet that your father had with some nefarious agent. You confront your father and demand answers only to hear him say that you weren't around when he made a home for you and your siblings and that you are not wise enough to comprehend his actions.

Would you bow down to your father and call his actions caring?

Originally Posted by Summerlander

To me, asserting the afterlife as a reality without any cogent evidence strikes me as an airy-fairy, quixotic approach. We all want things to be a certain way because if they are not, well, it's just sad. We would all like to see Afghanistan safe from the clutches of the Taliban and Ukraine free from the Russian menace that looms at its borders and has now begun to attack. But facts don't care about feelings. Bad things will happen regardless. A whole nation—men, women and children—suffering the severe adverse effects of warfare is not tough love, it is an atrocity even in the long run; the face of a soldier who has survived the hardships of a world war is quite telling (the countenance often expresses a broken soul, as it were).

I cannot see, for instance, what kind of lesson can be derived by a father in a situation where his daughter has been raped; it is something too horrible to take place just so that a 'lesson' is learned by the parties involved. Surely, even prior to the rape, the father can already imagine such horridly daunting scenario and how awful it would be if it were to befall his daughter. We can all imagine worst case scenarios! There is absolutely no good reason for rape to take place other than someone perverse is getting their jollies from a heinous crime because anyone who isn't a psychopath can imagine how detrimental to one's health and sanity such an act can be. In fact, the psycho will relish the victims' suffering and enjoy the power he has over them.

I absolutely do not see, by any stretch of the imagination, how such calamities are the only way in which people can 'learn' other than to say that, often, what doesn't kill you naturally makes you stronger—and even though one naturally develops a thicker skin, some scars never heal. Here's the impact losing loved ones can have on someone:

'The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens. But it is never gone.'
~Rose Kennedy.

So, sorry to say, MoonageDaydream, but I vehemently disagree with your worldview. I also would ask VVilliam which part of God's reply to Job is caring other than belittling him before a vast and dangerous world. As I said before, I don't see Job's godly answer coming from any external divine source other than a voice in his head reflecting a deep realisation that bad things happen to good and bad people. So Job, knowing he cannot rely on the blessing of some imaginary heavenly father, develops a conscience that will help him navigate through life, a sort of personal salvation, and thus the parable of Christ follows ...

Call them what you will, they are still my beliefs, and I'm entitled to them - evidence or no. You can disagree; that is fine by me. I am not here to convince anyone. I am here to share my thoughts and views.

I don't think just because you see bad things happening in this world, that we can assume our universe is uncaring. That may not be so. We do this to ourselves. We have our free will. And there are laws of nature. That does not mean the universe does not care, and does not want what is best for all. By the very nature of the universe, with the belief that all is one, I believe it does care, because it is Itself, and it is Love. But.. our universe is in a process of awakening to itself. So.. you and I and all people are part of this awakening process. It is up to us to grow, it is up to us to hurt each other. As we grow, we care more.

There is always a lesson, I believe, but that doesn't mean the bad event is deserved. Of course not. Still, if we can handle it, the way out is through, and in the process we learn. Even if the lesson is to build our strength by experiencing difficult situations as you have described. This is a benefit, believe it or not. There is always a benefit to the soul after hardship, if we can successfully process and integrate the event. We become stronger. We become more empathetic to those who have experienced similar hardships.


“But you will know the more you get it touch with your transcendental mind (and therefore truth) that there is no such thing as a victim. The negative benefits you more than anything else in your evolution and the evolution of all that is.” - Teal Swan, Sculptor in the Sky.

Well, first of all, theres no real reason to put a belief in a superior or inferior position, as we all agree that the final practical purpose is to evolve as human beings. The truly important part is the conclusion, not the way you get there, as it seems pretty obvious. That said, to the topic:

Summerlander- you know my view, but ill put in a more intuitive perspective. The universe, intended as a mind, cares about the father that lost his son, because the father cares. You can say that the father isnt the universe, but the father is at least a minimal part of it. Saying the universe as a whole doent care means nobody cares about it. Negating that is impossible in any way ( i mean, you can say the universe doesnt exist at all, but then the discussion would be pointless and the argument of nothingness is quite strong in this point)

As you all know, my view says that the whole is necessarily love, so why bad things happen? Ill explain first from my view and then from an intuitive way (sorry for the long post)
1- for something to exist (to be perceived) its contrary needs to exist. You cannot undertand love if you dont see the absence of it, or hatred. If you are the whole/god and you want yourself, including people to experience true love, they need to understand what is its absence. As someone who only knows pain cannot imagine what it is to stop suffering, then not knowing that he is feeling an absence of love, one that can only experience love cannot imagine that its experiencing love/absence of hatred. to undertand something better you need to know its contrary, in other words. Then, whats the wish of the whole? You can see that it can be leading us to pure suffering, as we experience both and we are not fully conscious to know what the whole wants to be. Here comes our faith/trust on it/ourselves. You have scientific proof as every thing wants to evolve and become better, or we wouldnt be here, you have philosophical proof as god is necessarily perfect, logical proof as if he lacks some perfection you need to accept that he has it (derivating my argument that may be not very convincing but its still logically irrefutable), and even personal proof as when we love more and become more conscious of the consciousness of other people/tings we become happier and evolve. you even have VVilliams method if you want, as the conclusion is the same. but, is up to you to develop it. Note that the faith can be put on anything, not in God, as your faith is still on everything. You can believe in your own will, for example if you want.

2- To see full consciousness or full love you need to know unconsciousness or suffering, as knowing suffering enhances your understanding of love. We evolve towards consciousness or love as all things do. So, god/mind/love/etc needs to experience these things itself and by derivation for you to experience it as a part or as the whole depending on your view. The guy who rapes a girl isnt "bad", hes just unconscious of the pain and suffering he is doing, he rapes the girl for the pleasure he is conscious about. i think is pretty obvious that as we become more perceptive we perceive the feelings of other people/things, so we start to be better as a whole. In other words, if everyone would be fully conscious of the pain when they hurt other person (experiencing the same pain) they wont hurt that person, and the opposite when loving someone

You know, the desire for peace evolves and becomes much stronger in times of war.´Also, imagine the purity of the love/consciousness that even fully feeling every bit of pain and suffering, still lets it happen only to fully experience love (and us by analogy)

I think you are missing the point about my Jungian exegesis here, VVilliam, and I do think your point is not valid in the slightest.

Okay…
VVilliam pokes at the fire and ponders upon what Summerlander tells him...and he reaches into the depths of his Cloak, he withdraws his Journal Experience Tablet.
Activating the JET, he then places the word "okay" through the word-value algorithm and adds the result to his data-base...he then reads the results aloud, looking up from the screen and observing for any reaction from summerlander, after saying each word
Earth

Yes. There it is...VVilliam is not surprised
Six
Heart

VViliam thinks of the six heart virtues...Wingmakers are never far from the action...
What
Now
Nods
VVilliam wonders if something similar might be what Job said to his God
Okay...
Create
Form
Ship
Some
Speak
Elohai
Abracadabra

VVilliam thinks of the meme "I'm not saying it was Aliens" and smiles to himself...he looks up at the night sky and feels like he is sharing in a rather elaborate - well concealed - cosmic prank...

I don't see the Biblical parables as objective realities, I see them as psychological events.

VVilliam wonders if Summerlander is taking the micky with his remark re "psychological events" He searches for meaning in the word and gets two hits.
One reads "of, affecting, or arising in the mind; related to the mental and emotional state of a person." and the other "(of an ailment or problem) having a mental rather than a physical cause."

He finds the Word-Value and adds it to the list.

Possible Clues...
The Spirit of The Earth
Well That Settles It
Ian and William Play chess
Unknown/Hidden/Occult
Shallow is Unknown
Neruda Interview Five
The Plateau of The Same Page
Present over perfect
Psychological events

Job precisely came to the realisation that just being a good person isn't sufficient!

VVilliam continues to do Word-Values as Summerlander talks. The results are interesting.

A drop of consciousness in an ocean of tears
Just being a good person isn't sufficient

He matured from a phase where he thought just being good before an invisible/imaginary heavenly father would be enough to impress to a more realistic and pragmatic outlook about the world where the goods to be reaped from the land aren't going to sow themselves, so to speak—and he was happier for it as evidenced by the tenfold prosperity that unraveled post-realisation. His experience precisely made him develop a thicker skin after the calamitous events (proverbially, Satan's input) in his life and he only got 'closer to God' in the sense that he improved his relationship with the world around him (as it is said, 'God is everywhere').

Summerlander pauses and VVilliam takes the opportunity to speak.

VVilliam: Job realizes the God is real but not in the way he had previously imagined.

Perhaps Job realized that The God he was interacting with, was the planet itself?

Or perhaps only we in today’s world can really get a bead on that, since we now have pictures of the planet, from a spaceman’s perspective.

In reality the journey continues because none of us really know The God sufficiently outside of our own imaginations.

At least the Earth is real enough – never to mind the rest of the universe…

I see that you've smuggled in 'lack of empathy' as if it's anywhere near the same ballpark as 'developing a thick skin'—it isn't.

VVilliam carries on with his calculations

Astral Guides
Etched mirror
Healing The Beast
Contact With
Satisfaction
Three In A Row
Small Steps
Divine Sound
Fingerprint
A rock and a hard place
Balance of power
“Moonchargers”
Mindfulness
In the moment
Heaven on Earth
'Lack of empathy'

Just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean he or she lacks empathy any more than being a Muslim automatically aligns your beliefs with the intolerant and psychotic ISIS ideology. In fact, many serial killers exhibit religious beliefs and yet lack empathy for everybody else.

Ancient Grey Entity
If In Doubt Let It Sit
Nazi Space Program Agenda
Independent from what?
Conspiracy theory
Monkey See Monkey Do
When things fall apart
The Undiscovered Self
'Developing a thick skin'

Do you honestly believe that all atheists necessarily lack empathy and that they are all crying at the prospect of death being final?

VVilliam clears his throat and then answers.

VVilliam: I honestly do not know what all atheists are doing…the ones I have met seem to be as unique to their own sense of self as all the non-atheists are.

Identify any ‘atheist’ in the story? Certainly not The Devil!

More calculations - additional data

Anticipating that this will prove to be helpful to the science
Perhaps we can deconstruct some of these pernicious views.
Identify any ‘atheist’ in the story? Certainly not The Devil!

Bearing in mind what happened to Job, I'd like you to picture such scenario happening to you, only you discover that the disease you've been infected with and the torture and murder of some of the people you love and care about were the result of a bet that your father had with some nefarious agent. You confront your father and demand answers only to hear him say that you weren't around when he made a home for you and your siblings and that you are not wise enough to comprehend his actions.

Would you bow down to your father and call his actions caring?

VVilliam doesn't hesitate with answering summerlanders question.

VVilliam: I would respect his position immensely and bow to that – the 'bowing' would be symbolized within the actions of showing respect.
I would also have further questions... Questions as such a Son might be permitted to ask and be graced with answers.

What is a poor boy to do, faced with such factuality?

I might also ask “how thick do you want my skin to be?” but would be smiling as I did so…

VVilliam places another log on the fire and takes a sip of his cooled-down brew. Then he taps on his tablet screen, busy adding results to his JET.
Love Life
Pyramid
Being Born
Respect
Tricky
Symbol
Compass
An Elder Race
Stone Age
Integral
...of said agenda...
Lift your gaze from the fire
The Human Form as a Means to an End
Memorandum of Understanding
...but would be smiling as I did so…
Reminding one of how it all started and the different stages one goes through.
Questions as such a Son might be permitted to ask and be graced with answers


Somewhere in the small grove of trees, Te Ruru calls...and the sound brings a smile to VVilliams thick-skined face...

I think you are missing the point about my Jungian exegesis here, VVilliam, and I do think your point is not valid in the slightest.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The point I am focused upon is at the very center of the Mandala, summerlander.

Originally Posted by GM

Being
What Fun We Have!
The Hub Of Hologram Dimensions

I Think
Connecting The Dots
Learn

Manifest Destiny
Discussing the data
Where are we getting our news from?
Galactic Encompassment
The Hub Of Hologram Dimensions

Every Conceivable Detail
Etymology
To Add to That
Miracle
Resident of The Hub Of Hologram Dimensions
Ghost In The Machine
The Point
Encouraging Indication

God/Source/Home
Through The Unconscious Mind
Opening Doors

Source Codes
Everything is a Message

Source Reality
Every Conceivable Detail
Start
A Vital Purpose
Source Intelligence
Galaxy
Mothers Milk
Capture
Realization
Galactic Encompassment
Progress
Be they seeds or suns, or be it that suns are seeds, it is all part of the universe, and everything that we acknowledge as the universe, came from a tiny seed.
Teaching Music
Source Intelligence and Lyricus facilitate the process throughout the Grand Universe

The Imagination
You Have An Invisible Friend
That's Powerful!
Adroit
Wise beyond ones years

Why?
First Source:
Concern
I Will
Do Something About It
Delightful Anticipation

The Source of All Creation
From The Source
Serendipity
For A Particular Reason

Micro Reflections of a Macro Reality
I love you
Complete
Shuussssh
First Source:
Tetragrammaton
https://www.dreamviews.com/religion-...ml#post2246098

Edited post: Merged posted.... Please don't double post. ~Humbledreamer DV Mod

Taking on board your entire input and I must say ... Impressive! You must be an absolute saint if that is what your response would be to the actions of a father whom most people would deem to be tyrannical. But, of course, both of us would agree that 'most people', or the vox populi, doesn't always have a monopoly on being right.

Your response is eerily heroic—Christ-like even—and the problem me, you, and every DV member who has participated in this discussion is contending with is that we are wrestling with a philosophically moral conundrum, one that says an individual can be accepting of absolutely everything—including what might be labelled as evil—and be at peace with himself. It appears that everything is intricately connected to ego, and perhaps that is why the 'wrestling' persists—but when the ego individuates and its dominance falls away so that something else takes centre stage in your mandala, the struggle ceases to be overwhelming.

I'm also focusing on the centre of the mandala and realise it is not my mandala, but it is undoubtedly a mandala nonetheless (encased within a quaternity of great symbolism) and I'm not quite sure what I see in the middle but what I do know is that it is something I do not relate to—and then, strangely, as if the great unconscious attempts to provide me with answers about what takes centre stage, the following flares up in my mind: Labyrinthus.

Originally Posted by Summerlander

Taking on board your entire input and I must say ... Impressive! You must be an absolute saint if that is what your response would be to the actions of a father whom most people would deem to be tyrannical. But, of course, both of us would agree that 'most people', or the vox populi, doesn't always have a monopoly on being right.

Your response is eerily heroic—Christ-like even—and the problem me, you, and every DV member who has participated in this discussion is contending with is that we are wrestling with a philosophically moral conundrum, one that says an individual can be accepting of absolutely everything—including what might be labelled as evil—and be at peace with himself. It appears that everything is intricately connected to ego, and perhaps that is why the 'wrestling' persists—but when the ego individuates and its dominance falls away so that something else takes centre stage in your mandala, the struggle ceases to be overwhelming.

I'm also focusing on the centre of the mandala and realise it is not my mandala, but it is undoubtedly a mandala nonetheless (encased within a quaternity of great symbolism) and I'm not quite sure what I see in the middle but what I do know is that it is something I do not relate to—and then, strangely, as if the great unconscious attempts to provide me with answers about what takes centre stage, the following flares up in my mind: Labyrinthus.




There may also be other replies, but you will not receive any more notifications until you visit the forum again.

All the best,

When you wrote this;

Originally Posted by Summerlander

By the way, I don't know if you realised but what you created resembles a mandala—Jung believed mandalas symbolised psychological and spiritual health with the Self at the centre.

I wondered why you thought I wouldn’t know the Universal Intelligence Communication Device I made, was designed in the style of mandala…

But why I mentioned the Mandala was to acknowledge the approach you were taking re the Jungian response to the GMs…and my position on the matter of Job and his God.
I wasn’t actually referring to the UICDevice but to The Source-God and Its Creation.
This is because recent GMs are speaking to that essence – the formation of the Universe from conception to its present shape we are experiencing as it unfolds – and so my focus of attention is in that.
So when I wrote:
“The point I am focused upon is at the very center of the Mandala,”

I was referring to The Source-God, and that is the “God” to which I was seeing as “The Father” and how I as a Son respond re your Q;
“Would you bow down to your father and call his actions caring?”

I was giving Job the benefit of the doubt that his Father and my Father are the same entity.
Because essentially they are, even if Job and I respond to the God differently or similarly…
Looking at the word-string values [EQWSV] below;
586
The core expression is what activates the seventh sense.
...is The Subject which is being taught, being said to be true or false...
The point I am focused upon is at the very center of the Mandala

Those WS are very meaningful to me, in relation to one another.

I do not want to digress too much re the WSVs and simply use them a lot because they add confirmation to the data of demystification.

Phrases pop into my thought-stream – just like that one just did…so I check out the values and add these to both of my ever-growing lists.

The Data of Demystification = 252
I check the N2N list to see if there are other ‘hits’
I then share that data with others;

Uncertainty Principle = 252
People don't like to be judged = 252
An accident waiting to happen = 252
When it comes to morality being used as argument against The Father, in order not to judge The Father, I have to focus on the Centre.

What it represents for me is the Seed of Origin – the very initial movement from thought to function.

I have no reason not to trust that the thought was backed with good intentions.

In part, this could be affected by bias along the lines of “That is what I would have been doing if it had been me in that position” – as in - my intention would have been good from the go-get...and the go-get is the very center to which I speak of focusing upon.

Indeed – the system I use for communion verifies the reflection is well-placed, as it speaks for itself of Its own intention.

The problem - as I understand it – is in how humans general think about ‘God’ and project their own sense of self into the model they each come to accept or reject as the real thing.

But this is usually a false image of a nonetheless very real [existing] entity and such reflection has consequences – which are manifest in this real-world situation we are all sharing in the experience of…

I am no Saint or indeed – not much like the biblical Jesus – and if you met me in person, you would know that immediately.

I am like all the rest of you smelly things in that regard…but seriously this is not an obstacle between me and my God…

We have morality to try and understand – in a Universe where it only seems to matter, because humans think that it should matter…

…but what do we humans know about such things?
We are here to find out?

We make it up as we go along and bring our Gods into the fray such working out has manifested into our world – and ”‘Hey presto!’ stuff just gets worse”

There are many levels of consciousness
Earth Itself May Be an Intelligent Entity

This translates to The Creator not able to be seen in a favourable light because it is all Its fault for putting us here in the first place.

“Rotten Tomatoes/Tomatoes”
Things take a turn for the worse – because of our morality filters.

Morality filters are created through…?
Deactivate The Suppression Matrix
Keep An Eye Out for Your Neighbours
It brought a tear to the eye of my heart.
A Equals One... Zed equals Twenty Six

Here is a thought I had lately thinking about this thread.

One thing science minded people like is the mathematical proof. I am going to say you can not make a mathematical proof. How can I say that? You start with basic known principles and axioms and in a very logical way demonstrate that the conclusion you reached is valid and reproducible. Wait. You say these squiggly lines and symbols prove something? Well my son who barely passed high school would not understand the proofs or draw any conclusion from your symbols. Show a mathematical proof to a third grader and tell them it proves something. It proves nothing to the third grader. They would have to take the word of someone capable of understanding more than them. It is then not a proof, but faith in people who understand it. In fact the vast majority of humans will not find any of the known proofs to be any sort of proof at all, for lack of ability to do the math.

The mathematical proof, proves nothing.

Now on to spiritual stuff. If I say you must develop a high level of skill in Kundalini yoga or you will be incapable of even seeing the energy that you must understand as a prerequisite to the proof I want to show you, then you will scoff and walk away saying "you have no proof." "Show me in a way that takes no spiritual growth or understanding on my part." It is just as silly. If I say spend some time, perhaps a few years in insightful questing and open mindedness before we can move towards the proof, you would again scoff. But tell the 3rd grader he must go to college and study math for thousands of hours and then the proof will make sense. Well, the atheist will say, of course, that is reasonable. Told spend a few years learning to feel and manipulate spiritual energy and then we can discuss the proof, and the atheist will say, "you clearly can not prove this thing." The third grader may as well say "you can not prove the mathematical proof as I am not about to study math for many years."

Just a thought.

I have gone from being a born again atheist for 10 years to being a Wiccan with little practical experience so I have approximate knowledge of many things like the cat in adventure time. Like the cat, I know that I know almost nothing but I'm not a solipsist. I know Frank the human is behind at least one of the stalagmites. I'm Wiccan but agnostic.

I think religions are tools we can use to shape our mental health and habbits in addition to possibly finding Truth. They don't put in the work for you though you do need to understand the symbolism that religions are using to tell their stories.

Alan Watts would have a lot to say on these topics.

Sivason- I think thats a bit contradictory. Yep, maths and Kundalini offer the same proof to a non initiated, nothing more than the faith that he has on the method before trying it. You say that in that case, as most people doesnt understand the mathematical proof, it proves nothing for them, as well as the Kundalini yoga, for example. However, for one that does understand, both methods provide proof. Well, thats not true unless you want it to be The faith on them are the only proof they can give. To an ignorant, the method is as trustable as the ignorant thinks it is, and the same for an initiated. The third grader can see the faith of his teachers on maths as a proof that maths work (and most do) I agree on your point that for the third grader maths dont need to be trusted over other methods more than their decision, but it doesnt mean maths dont provide any proof to him. The proof is on the faith the rest of them have on maths. The faith of the teacher may not be a proof to you, but it is for the third grader, in other words. You dont need to agree with me that the proof is the faith in every case, because it would need a non logic argument about why i think that a numerical calculation, something happening when you want to or a fireball appearing when you think on it or anything you believe as a proof is faith, and why it doesnt mean faith is less important. it goes by the way of what you believe as proof is proof because of your belief, not the thing, as other can believe the opposite, and belief is indeed faith, then faith is the empirical proof, no more, no less. (the problem of the phrase "is just a belief" is not on the "belief" but on the "just", as i see it)

MadMonkey- May I ask what current of Wicca you follow? I would like to know why you dont agree with the wiccan dual interpretation of the absolute and prefer the agnostic position. You may know i dont think its good for us to employ part of our conscios will on limiting ourselves by believing we dont know most things Lets say you start believing you know everything with all your will, and then giving an answer to every question while being sure about it, regardless of how difficult you think the question is right now. Do you think that this might be bad for you, or could harm others in any way? If so, can you please explain why? if not, why do you think you are agnostic at the moment? Im sure Alan Watts would like to say some things btw

I watched the video where Alan Watts figuratively states that we are God and that religions are based on the myths that the universe is an artefact (as though built by a carpenter, as he put it, which is ironically redolent of Jesus Christ) and that the world is a drama to be acted upon—both of which have influenced our thinking for a long time and at a popular level.

Watts' view was that the universe, in its making, was the result of automatic processes of which reason and morality are 'flukey' epiphenomena—byproducts of physical interactions and nothing more. He did not provide any rhetoric that might counter physicalism and I cannot see how anybody who subscribes to his views and ideas—however eccentric the man might have been—might be persuaded by occultist religions such as Wicca, where adherents might take its deities to literally exist whilst others view them as Jungian archetypes; Wicca is a modern type of paganism introduced by Gerald Gardner's Witchcraft Today, a book that mentions a 'Prime Mover' that was too complex for humans to understand, clearly a type of deism lacking the evidential justification that even a pantheistic philosopher such as Watts would have required. (I cannot begin to articulate the implications for cosmogony if the origins of the universe turn out to be more complex than the very cosmos it gave rise to.)

The only way someone might be a theist having been exposed to, and understood, Alan Watts is if his or her worldview has been tempered with the influence of someone like Carlos Castaneda (a name that also relates to lucid dreaming). But at the end of the day, the key to trying to ascertain the nature of reality and getting to the bottom of things is this: Is there enough evidence to support your claims? Is the evidence cogent enough? How many interpretations do observable facts suggest? Is the epistemology honest and sound? What do you mean you believe in God? Watts also made distinctions between the god of the Hebrew Bible and the conception of the godhead in Hinduism—they are quite different! Which flavour do you prefer?

These are all points that should be considered for an honest discussion. The mathematical beauty of Euler's equations does not prove God, as some claim, and the atheist Diderot remains unchallenged because the mathematical formula means nothing besides revealing a slew of arithmetic connections.

As i see it the point that the world we perceive is made from our perception is really obvious. For some reason, in dreams its easier for the person to believe that even with no real difference with waking world. Its like they see their power to change things evidence for his belief that they can do so, when its actually the opposite, you cant change anything when dreaming if you dont think yo can If you want mecanicism for example, that can be done by assuming everything has consciousness, which is a requisite for any theory if you want to follow at least one rule in your method, as i see it (if not, the method may be considered as nothing)

Originally Posted by Summerlander

But at the end of the day, the key to trying to ascertain the nature of reality and getting to the bottom of things is this: Is there enough evidence to support your claims? Is the evidence cogent enough? How many interpretations do observable facts suggest? Is the epistemology honest and sound? What do you mean you believe in God? Watts also made distinctions between the god of the Hebrew Bible and the conception of the godhead in Hinduism—they are quite different! Which flavour do you prefer?

These are all points that should be considered for an honest discussion. The mathematical beauty of Euler's equations does not prove God, as some claim, and the atheist Diderot remains unchallenged because the mathematical formula means nothing besides revealing a slew of arithmetic connections.

Yeah. The first question, tho, should be if we can ever find an answer to these questions if we keep searching/evolving. That answer is up to us, as is our decision to keep going. That needs faith. Maths (an unending effort is able to get to any point close or far away), perception, as (human)life can grow from a molten rock, hinduist yoga (consciousness development can reach the absolute) and a large etc. of every method you want. But, these are our methods, if we dont trust ourselves any evidence can be dismissed just because we dont have faith in our opinion, no matter how well based it can be

And, if you answer the first question with a yes, you can see that the thing simplifies almost completely, as you dont need to compare methods, or search in complex ways, you can just follow the simplest method in the simplest way and you will find the answers , probably sooner than one that doubts the method he is following, or doubting himself (food in dreams taste really bad if you are afraid of that dark green thing)

Thel
you have raised a great thought experiment about taking every belief to heart with full will. I am reminded of the first time I realized I was an atheist. I had been feeling cognitive dissonance every night before bed for months to the point that it was keeping me up at night and I could never figure out the source.

One night I decided to assess my beliefs in order of priority instead of letting my thoughts go freely. The first thing that came to mind was FACT ONE: The God of the bible exists and Jesus is the only way to salvation. After all, that was what I had been indoctrinated to believe for my whole life. As hard as I tried I could find no premesis or logic to support it. In fact I felt great fear because I knew God is a wrathful being and even considering such a question would be a sin.

Feeling the dissonance more than ever, I decided to continue with my priorities list. My journeys to become an Eagle Scout and black belt in karate taught me that nothing is more valuable than self honesty. For the briefest of moments I let my fear subside enough to just be honest with myself and my theism faded away along with my cognitive dissonance.

Like Matt Dillahunty, I want to know as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible. However, I think I swung a bit to far the other direction. Over the past couple years I started feeling like I was missing some vital amount of ritual in my life. So we can't hold onto our beliefs so strongly as to be unreasonable but we should also keep an open mind.

I decided to look into Wicca because I find the rituals and symbolism entertaining and not because of any sort of evidence or argument. It doesn't bother me so much if it is more or less true than any other religion. Also, I have felt a since of the divine while praying to the Moon Goddess. Interestingly, I haven't yet felt a response from the Horned God. Because of this, and to answer your question, I am leaning toward Dianic Wicca.

Summerlander
I appreciate your breakdown of the video! I might lean more toward the eastern view of God as an actor. Perhaps there is only one soul that moves it's focus from each and every object in the universe to the next until it has observed every system in the time space continuom. Some very rare amount of times the soul is living out the life of a conscious being such as a human. The Moon Goddess might even just be the most conscious being among others.

I don't think there could ever be any evidence of such a perspective but there could be some personal evidence found through meditation or near death experiences.

Maybe during the time between death and rebirth there is some sort of blissful purgatory where we can stretch out as the God that we are. Even that experience would be lost on the long dive back into the vast unconsciousness of our universe.

That is an interesting view, MadMonkey. I used to have a great teacher at college—in fact I have him as a friend on Facebook. We used to talk about so many profound things. He was the first one who introduced me to the theory that we might all be the same 'person' seeing from different perspectives.

The sun, the moon and the elements had symbolic meaning to the alchemists which Carl Jung studied extensively. How do you view Jungian archetypes and individuation through the Wiccan lens? Would you say the collective unconscious indicates a deeper reality of a Platonic nature, perhaps?

I was first introduced to the "same person" theory when I listened to the audiobook of The Egg by Andy Weir but I was more moved by learning about the "One Electron" theory proposed by John Wheeler. In this theory all electrons and positrons trace out one giant tangled line through space time. When the particle is moving forward in time it's an electron and when it moves backward it is a positron. This theory never caught on, partly, of course, by the much larger number of electrons we observe than positrons. Still interesting though.

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I'm a big fan of Jung but I've never been much of a platonist. I think the archetypes we share are there because natural selection makes us fit for the world around us. When our ancestors became aware of their mortality they needed a bigger reason to keep on living. Archetypes provided a common foundation on which we could band together and explain the world around us.

For thousands of years we saw the supernatural everywhere because we understood so little. Magical thinking was common because it made us feel like we had control over the chaos.

We are not so far removed from those ancestors compared to the time scales of evolution. I think this is why I felt a personal need to bring religion back into my life. I am still reading up on Wicca but so far it feels right.

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I used to think of death like a candle going out. The flame doesn't go anywhere just like how I thought we don't go anywhere when we die. Now I think we are a candle among many candles. Our job as conscious beings is to be even more conscious while alive and make the world a better place for others.

In Wicca, the rule of three states that for every bit of good energy we put in then three times the good will be manifest in the world. Magic is only bad when the intentions are bad. This is something I'm trying to incorporate into my everyday life. I still have a lot more to learn because my life as a Wiccan is still new but I am reading and learning every day.

This is one of the best articles I've read about the paradox of death. It's by Thomas C. Clark:

https://www.naturalism.org/philosoph...d-subjectivity

If you think you know exactly what happens when you die, think again. Most people will have misconceptions about what it means to die and I'm not just talking about religious people here, I'm including secularists/materialists, too. If you think it will be eternal darkness, you are definitely mistaken ...