Thread: Animism and Dreams

So far, we still have three main theories why there is no known explicit differentiation between lucid and non-lucid dreams in the animistic lore: 1) the informants didn't bother to emphasize the difference, 2) the anthropologists/missionaries didn't understand or didn't border to inquire, and 3) the native people didn't actually care whether they knew they were dreaming or didn't. I wouldn't exclude any of the three points and we all seem to keep making alternate arguments for all of them. As for the (3), I'd like to stress again that the mind of native-American (or Siberian) hunter-gatherer is quite different in some aspects than, say, the mind of a modern white citizen, especially when it comes to altered states of consciousness. As an obvious example, their attitude to alcohol is something completely different (and very unlucky at that point, up to the level of destruction of their cultures). They generally considered it a powerful "medicine" which, as they believed, gave them visions of the spirit world (hey, I have NEVER perceived anything like a vision in the state of drunkenness. Well, maybe afterwards in the dream), while at the same time making them behave like madmen and otherwise seriously ruining their health and lives.


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Originally Posted by sivason

I feel that these entities are exactly the same as Indian spirit guides or animals and have even had contact with at least one while in a waking state.

There is supposed difference between the two in that the random dream guides are just parts of your self, and you can only learn about yourself communicating with them. The spirit guides, on the other hand, are somehow more "real", and they can prove that, either by providing you with a new and useful information about the outer world, or supporting your waking life by a specific power. There is also a reason why they appear in constant form (which somehow mirrors their type of power), in order for you to recognize them and trust them.

Long ago, I have done several attempts of vision questing, with only partial success. Years passed, and I was visited by a non-human character in a non-lucid, but very powerful felt dream. (I didn't yet dream lucidly at that time.) Around the same time, there were clear signs of that being attempting to contact me in the waking life. I also believe that this spirit showed me how to dream lucidly. Nevertheless, I have never yet succeeded to call the spirit into my LD, even though I tried.

On the other hand, I have had a lot of differently looking human characters in my lucid dreams, just to spontaneously appear beside me and start counseling me. I don't want to underestimate them, but don't feel they are of much practical help outside of the dream scope. There is an article here on dreamviews about the dream guides. According to the article, the dream guide is supposed to have a constant form, which is usually a woman for a man and a man for a woman. That's not the case for the spirit guide. This makes me doubt they are the same. Second point is that spirit guide is something you wish for, something you fast for, something you sacrifice considerable energy in the waking life. It is not so much true for the dream guide.
In my last lucid, I wished my spirit guide to show up. Nothing happened for a while. Then I wished "at least my dream guide" to show up. She really did. But I somewhat doubt she is the same sort of guide as the spirit guide. I haven't had any LD since then to be able to try again and compare if she is the same. I am going to ask her if she is also a spirit guide

To prevent any confusion, no animistic tradition (afaik) makes an explicit difference between the two. That's only me asking whether these two types of guides are allowed or supposed to exist independently and side by side. Just trying to clarify the terms, you know, making cultural comparison.

Originally Posted by Coatl

There is supposed difference between the two in that the random dream guides are just parts of your self, and you can only learn about yourself communicating with them. The spirit guides, on the other hand, are somehow more "real",

There is an article here on dreamviews about the dream guides. According to the article, the dream guide is supposed to have a constant form, which is usually a woman for a man and a man for a woman.

Second point is that spirit guide is something you wish for, something you fast for, something you sacrifice considerable energy in the waking life. It is not so much true for the dream guide.

I would not assume what ever article speaks the only truth. Some people want to believe nothing magical happens, so they proclaim "DGs are just part of yourself," well that is far from my experience. Also, I do prey and focus lots of energy on attracting these beings.

Originally Posted by sivason

I would not assume what ever article speaks the only truth. Some people want to believe nothing magical happens, so they proclaim "DGs are just part of yourself," well that is far from my experience. Also, I do pray and focus lots of energy on attracting these beings.

But there is a unique trait to your experiences with spiritual forms compared to meeting personal/common archetypes/personalities in dreams. For example, that red wing black bird. You know.
Whereas, you must also meet meaningful symbols in your dreams that are not accompanied with the knowledge that they are not part of you?

I can't remember finding such entities that make me believe in "more". I have things in real life that make me believe in "more". I hold on to these events to preserve my "magic thinking"...
Some entities though, I must admit feel like they are pure power, too big to be parts of me. More often, it is evil but I am not convinced it comes from outside of me.

Originally Posted by Coatl

There is an article here on dreamviews about the dream guides. According to the article, the dream guide is supposed to have a constant form, which is usually a woman for a man and a man for a woman.

The inner woman of a man is the anima and the inner man of a woman is the animus if you are interested. You can check out more on Darkmatter's thread: Jungian Thread
This is more related to unconscious archetypes than dream guides unless they are the same... Here is a recent example I shared with Darkmatter. We were talking about Shadow self and Anima...

// I woke up in a vivid false awakening dream. I was still drowsy but convinced I was awake after a series of dreams. The fan was on, which is odd because it is a very cold winter now and I haven’t used it since September. My eyes were sort of closed though, or at least, I was not looking at the fan. There was a sound, like indistinguishable unspoken words. Male, robotic. I thought it must be the fan. But my fan doesn’t make noises like this. The fan intensity increased. I thought, “this cannot be”. I could feel the violent wind from the fan on me. And it seemed the fan was being turned up past its maximum ability and even further. The weirdly vocal sound again. “Someone must be there, at the feet of my bed. It must be an evil supernatural thing to be here in the dark of night…” I felt scared now, because I knew I had to look at it. I tried to look up but I was stuck. I realized I was in sleep paralysis (happens to me often, paired with an entity). The sound. The wind. I was powerless. I submitted. Not genuinely. I tried to sit up again. Fear. Exerted more effort. Finally, I stood up, awoken for real, in my dark bedroom. The fan was off, but the bathroom air circulation was on and making low blowing air noise. Someone had turned up the heat so now I was very hot. I turned the fan on and went back to sleep a little bit shaken by the false awakening.

I slept through another series of dreams until I was in the kitchen of a lively house. A woman two years older than me started talking to me about an aquarium bowl with a dead red fish in it on the kitchen isle counter. A boy slowly came to look at it. She told me to leave it there. She put it there so as not to hide the reality from her little brother, so he would see what really happened to his fish. She told me this with much intensity, and very close to me. At this time, I felt like we were in some sort of romantic relationship. She was telling her message with utter seriousness, even some anger, yet I was drawn to her. She said something very wise, and I can only paraphrase now "When faced with evil, we come out whole," something like that. Now, we were walking outside. She asked me “Don’t you agree? When should someone be withheld painful truth?” Teasingly, I responded “When the person would never find out anyway.” Some old man leaning on a brick wall thought that was really funny. But the girl was irritated and she turned and sped up, walking up a green hill. Amused, I followed her without accelerating to match her gait.
//

Just a fun night where I felt a strong presence in a sleep paralysis dream (recurrent type of dreams for me, in some culture known as "night hag dreams" and actually began more common for me during my trip in South America where I got most of my "magic education"). The woman in this dream is one of the strongest/closest examples I have of meeting "dream guides." This dream came at a very good time, where I needed to face some important fears and was focusing a little bit more on my dreaming.

Originally Posted by Coatl

Then I wished "at least my dream guide" to show up. She really did. But I somewhat doubt she is the same sort of guide as the spirit guide. I haven't had any LD since then to be able to try again and compare if she is the same. I am going to ask her if she is also a spirit guide

Depending on how easy it is for you to achieve this, I would pass on that question. It's just nomenclature and means very little... Like in the excerpt I showed... Seems every character was meaningful. The little boy, my Child self, the woman, my Anima, the sleep paralysis presence, the Shadow...? Or dreamguides... or more? Asking them what category they belong in might just override the message. I don't think "they" "know" what they are... they are just a concept. Don't ask a cat if it's a cat. Just observe it. (Unless they tell you they are entities outside of you, but there is no way to confirm that... you just have to believe or not).

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

But there is a unique trait to your experiences with spiritual forms compared to meeting personal/common archetypes/personalities in dreams. For example, that red wing black bird. You know.
Whereas, you must also meet meaningful symbols in your dreams that are not accompanied with the knowledge that they are not part of you?

Yes, I get plenty of symbolic imagery that seems created by my own unconscious mind. I run into thousands of DCs who do not stand out, even if they are central to the story line. However, when 'an entity' is present it is very clear they are different. It is seemingly clear that they have a realness outside of me. It is clear that these things are 'other' than me. How? I can not explain it well as it seems to be another sense outside of the standard waking sense. Picture if you will that everything in my dreams has been in black and white (not literally, it is color) and into this walks a DC that is in full color while every thing else remains black and white. You could then easily pick this DC out of a crowd, and would have no doubt it was different. No, color has nothing to do with it, but maybe the comparison gives you an idea of how clearly this other sense informs me of things with existence outside of my own creation. As you say "you just have to believe or not" and I have no doubt.

Originally Posted by sivason

No, color has nothing to do with it, but maybe the comparison gives you an idea of how clearly this other sense informs me of things with existence outside of my own creation. As you say "you just have to believe or not" and I have no doubt.

I always appreciate your faith. It makes me want to strengthen mine which has been, importantly, on leave for a while... Now, I will actively welcome in positive entities into my dreams each night. Hopefully, I can advance on that journey.

About this other sense... I think there is a known sense which informs us of whether something comes from within us or from outside of us. For example, my understanding of psychosis (which I study in animal models, but makes me no expert on this), is that people with psychosis will sense their own thoughts as coming from outside of them. Hence, hearing voices.

If this sense can be dysfunctional, it would be interesting to think that when functional, this sense allows you to sense these entities in dreams.

I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the new TV show, Westworld. It's about an android park where people can enjoy a consequence free stay. The androids eventually gain... self-awareness? But the way they do that is by sensing the programming in their mind as being their own. It made me think of this sense that determines what is within us and what is outside in terms of psychosis. And the importance to sense our thoughts as our own. But maybe I have yet to understand the importance of sensing some things as not our own.