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Is this supposed to have anything to do with the dream thread? Christians and all religions have such a narrow view of god, they create hate, judgement and war in gods name. God is like love and infinitely beyond any entrapments that rwligion has placed, god is spirit. Like a tuning fork or a melody in the heart that we can all follow without the church.
Poland is and always has been a very catholic country.
Look, in reality its ISIS that represents the true core of muhaamad teachings...
Im friends with a guy from Iraq. He is an atheist and he was a muslim for many years...
I asked him a lot about ISIS and groups similiar to them, and he always stated the same. That they represent the true nature of Quaran. And then he d give me with a apprioprate quaran verse that justifies their doing
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.
Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."
As we can see, islam is just another made-up religion just like christianity created by power-hungry, violent men who used religion as a tool to control the masses.
oh well, not really. But it is, in fact, a section called Religion/Spirituality, plus im enjoying the conversation :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Dreamwalkwr
Edit: Are you saying you believe in god but without being entitled to any specific religion? Thats an intresting concept really, im curious. Could you tell us more about it?
I have read the bible, I've gone to church, I've listened to what others have been taught in their own respective religions. Some of the teachings are good, some are not. The bible for example (canonized) was put together by the Catholic church from whatever writing 'they' believed should be taught. But there is sooo much more. I'm sure by now just about everyone knows about the book of enoch which was initially included in the early church teaching but then thrown out. Why?
It's an interesting read though, if you happen to be curious about how religion and mythologies can tie in together. The more I read and the more I think on it all the more I believe that no one is right. Yet I believe in god after many years of my own search for truth. It would be difficult to explain exactly why because my walk with spirituallity has always been a private and very real thing.
If you imagine that god created all things then you can imagine that god is a part of all things and that make all things, and people sacred. This is why love is the message.when we act out in hate it spreads pain lile a disease and teaches others to hate. We distroy each other in the name of religion and that is why I don't believe in religion. God is in all of us and if we look inward we will find the truth. That is where truth begins.
Religions, even the christian faith that say they teach love, are teaching judgement and division.
You are making the same mistake a majority of theists (and some supposed atheists) make about Atheism. I get where you are coming from when you say it's a "religious" belief, but that right there illustrates the issue here. Atheism is not a belief about anything. Atheism does not claim that God or gods do not exist. Atheism is a lack of belief in a God or gods because the scientific evidence we have doesn't support the belief that a god or many gods exist. Atheism can't be a religious belief, because it isn't a belief it all, it is specifically the lack of a belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitakaro
Some atheists take things a step too far and wind up asserting that god or gods do not or cannot exist, and some atheists do wind up kind of forming communities that suggest that atheism is almost like a form of religion, despite it being devoid of any of the qualities that make religions... religions. It's therefore easy for people to mistakenly believe that atheism itself is a "religion", that it's like a religion, or that it's at the very least a religious belief, because it is a belief that concerns a religious topic. However, as I've already stated, these are strawman representations of atheism/atheists. Atheism by definition is a lack of a belief in god or gods. And I know I sound like a broken record by now, but it is not a belief that god or gods don't exist. There is definite nuance in my last two statements. At first glance it can be difficult to understand just how nuanced they are, but it's enough to render most of the ideas that theists have and posit about atheists into nothing more than strawmen, at best. It's indicative of a flawed understanding of what atheism is from the get-go, and that understanding has to be corrected before any meaningful discussion can happen on the subject.
On the topic of the Big Bang being equally absurd... it actually has evidence supporting it. That being said, even if it is a far-fetched idea, it is not even close as being the same level of absurdity as the gods presented in the world's various religions. One idea has a lot more going for it, and it doesn't have a lot more going for it simply because a lot of people choose to believe it. There is at least some level of empirical evidence and critical thought that has gone into the idea. If I had to pick, it would easily be the theory I would go with (the other theories being the various organized religions around the world). To act like somebody is foolish for arriving at this decision because it's also an absurd idea is ignoring the very values we hold when it comes to good decision making. If you really believe that picking something that makes you feel better is a better criterion for decision making then I have to question whether somebody who uses the same criteria in decision making as you should be considered qualified to hold a political office of any kind, or be any kind of leader in society. I wouldn't really go that far, but the fact that you think that the various religions around the world are equally as absurd as the Big Bang Theory, or rather that any of the religions could possibly be less absurd (because to do so means you don't base your decisions on evidence or logical reasoning) is honestly disheartening and a bit... scary. Scary isn't quite the right word, but I can't find one that's better.
I really, really don't like such terribly ambiguous and nigh meaningless statements. Can you please explain to me what you mean about people being love, and love is the core of one's being? I've heard people say things like "life is love, everything is love" before, but at most it comes across as incredibly shallow emotional spiritual babble. What is the statement even supposed to mean? How can I take it seriously? From all of my experiences in life, I know for a fact that love was not my default state of being. That is to say, I was not born being a loving being. Children are incredibly cruel and borderline evil. They can be incredibly violent, and one could even go as far as to say they are capable of torture in the right situation. They are some of the most monstrous bullies you could even encounter. The idea that children are pure and innocent has never made sense to me. They are demonstrably some of the most psychopathic, vicious, and cold-hearted beings out there, next to adults who possess the same negative traits. Eventually they are taught kindness, to behave appropriately, to care for one another, to experience love, and to do the right thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by lidybug
So, it wouldn't be fair to say we are born as loving beings, so how can we say that love is at the core of one's being (let alone that we are love)? How can we say that life is love, and that everything is love? It's a gross idealization of reality, and at best highly wishful thinking. Reality is so much more complicated than that--your statement is just... meaningless. What's more, it completely baffles me. What implications does love being the core of our being have on humanity and on individual people? What purpose does the statement have? What idea are you really trying to get across? What does it mean in grand scheme of things? Are you just trying to say that, indirectly it means God is part of us, or that we are a part of God? That last bit is about the only idea I could come up with, and if it's what you were meaning to say, why not actually say that instead?
I don't mean to sound so hostile or negative, but it's kind of a pet-peeve/annoyance when people make statements that you can tell they believe are profound and meaningful--something really worth saying--but in reality it is a generally bland and relatively meaningless statement. It means about as much to me as saying that, "God's light is truth", or some other such nonsense. What is that even trying to say?
I just want to suggest the possibility that reincarnation may be real and that we don't go to hell (which is actually mentioned in the old testament that I recall but was a reference to Gahanna, which was the place outside of the city walls where the bodies of the sinners were thrown onto a pire) maybe there is something to this karma thing. I have a friend who's in his 50's but has had the memory since childhood of a completely other life as a fighter pilot in the second world war. There are stories that have been documented of children recalling past lives. I forget the name of the scientist who was investigating these past life claims who was himself convinced. Look it up and you can find him and the documented stories. Even jesus said 'seek and ye shall find' he meant we should seek the truth, not listen to what everyone else tells us it is. If I only have one life on this earth and im forced to steal to feed my family, should I go to hell? If im living in mexico and the cartel forces me to do bad things or they will kill my family, will I go to hell? How can we be judged like this at all when others live perfect lives and are never tested? I do NOT believe in the christian idea of hell
Its not that we are born as loving beings but that we should seek to act with love. No ones perfect, my modo is to try and be a better person today than I was yesterday. I was abused as a child and grew up without love but that doesn't mean I can't be better than those people.
Dreamwalkr, there is no evidence backing up the existence of this process called reincarnation nor there is any proof for existence of heaven and hell.
Snoop, you guys in US have creationists that firmly believe earth was created 6000 years ago and that dinosaurs bones have been created by Satan to fool christians :P
I recently had a very fruitless debate with such person, no amout of evidence, reasoning or just pure logic will convince them that creation of Earth was much more complex than some wizard speaking things into existence
I believe the way I view god, not some old man in the sky theory, and science can coexist. Everything has been proven to be made up of energy, what if (and of course there's no proof either way and scientists are always discovering new things) god is like a frequency. I know this will sound crazy but I've had the experience of seeing a spirit. I even got very ill after the encounter. It's a blessing though because I can know in my own heart without doubt that there are things of a spiritial nature that we don't understand and the majority will never know it.
It's not evrn like I care if anyone believes it either, we all have our own paths to follow and I don't begrudge them their belief or non belief.
Oh well, yes. Although i dont personally agree with you Dreamwalkwr i have no intention nor will to convince you otherwise.
I get furious tho when theists demand that their laws should apply to everyone ( "traditional marriage" , abortion, mandatory prayers in schools) and when they shove up their religious beliefs down children throat... so that later they can abuse them in every way possible.
Like, none asked me if i wanted to be baptized or if i wanted to pray every single time before the lesson can begin. And of course at the time, i had no problem with it. Nonetheless, we are all born as atheists, and only later our society and parents make us believe certain things. (yahwe,allah, all zillions of hindu gods etc.)
This depends like you said on the definition of Atheism:Quote:
Originally Posted by snoop
The statment : "There is no god or gods" // is of course a believe as it simply has no empirical evidence and it is what i understand as Atheism
The statment : " The existence or non existence of some transcendent being , cannot be proven or disproven. Discourse in society should be based on empirical evidence
therefore god or no-god is irrelevant." // this is what i guess you say is Atheism, I know this as non-Theism and it is what i would support.
When i said "also very absurd claim" ,I don't mean that this two point of views are equal, just that they both equaly lack inherent meaning.
The book of genesis or the creation myth of the maya for that matter are absurd as without believe in their respective mythologies, they are just stories
( and not even very creative ones).
The Big bang is the prevailing model for the begin of the univerese in the scientific community and is based on some convincing empirical evidence.
So most likely from what we now today ( a free hundred years back most were sure the earth was flat) the first thing to exist was a huge explosion...
So what , science can answer a little part of the "how" but never the "why", when it comes to that its seems dommed to causations ad infinitum.
Try to be more relaxed and a bit less prejudiced Snoop...
Just so you know , when i comes to politics i would always support a rationalist point of view ,so no reason for you to be dishearted or scared.
Here in Europe we already have seen what raging atheist can do in politics. This doesn't make raging theist any less dangerous of course but should show you that
"Good politics" is really a bit more difficult than that.
That's cool Hunter. Like I said, everyone has their own path to walk. I'm cool with that. I don't force god on anyone because I'm not religious and I can't honestly say 'what' god is but I believe in the soul so this life means something, there is purpose. I can't prove my experiences to another either, but this is my walk in life and I'm always stilll seeking the truth. I don't disagree with science either, I believe in the big bang. In the bible god says he created light out of chaos and he also created the angels first you will find if you read the old testament. I agree the stories of creation myths sound like childrens stories but the they have been simplified to be understood by the people of the time. Again, there is another book called the story of adam and eve where we see that 7 days isn't even an accurate measure of time. This books writings say 1000 years is a day to the lord. No ones got it all right and the stories are perhaps ridiculous but that doesn't disprove god. I ised to have a big resentment about having religion forced on me as well, I like to figure things out for myself
you dont have to believe in the big bang, just as you dont have to believe in evolution.
Beacuse its scientifically proven fact :)
Perhaps god is the spirit behind all science. Evolution maKes sense. It's what organized religion teaches that doesn't make sense to me :)
There is matter and there is spirit. God may be the animator. If you put limits on the concept of god then it will be hard to reconcile the two.
A thought I got from the first post is...
Is love really any more "perfect" than spoken language?
Spoken language can be misunderstood and sometimes it may be hard to use words to describe certain things (for example, mystical experiences). But this can be made up for by continuing the conversation and clarifying. Difficult messages where emotion is more important than words can be addressed with art, such as song or eloquent speeches.
Love does not protect us from hurting those we love. It doesn't prevent us from being hurt by them. Love doesn't always last. And the right thing is not always to be attached but rather to let go.
I feel as though you used the word simply in a poetic way, referencing awe and caring for others. As great and uplifting as those emotions might be, I doubt that God is Love. Love is limited in imperfect, much like language... which are infinite because of their imperfection (we can build on them, if they were perfect and objective, we wouldn't be able to). When I say limited, I mean that there is so much more to life than just awe and caring for others. Love is such a small part of the whole.
Honestly, God seems to simply be the label we put on all the feel good emotions: Awe, caring love, altruistic devotion, hope, faith.
But the God as described in the holy scriptures created this world where many other experiences exist: Disgust, Vengeful hatred, egoistic ambition, despair, knowledge. And these can be good. But no one says "God is despair" (Well, I am sure some people have said it...)
I find it odd that when we feel love, rather than feeling good and saying, wow, I feel love, we need to say "I feel God" instead. But we don't say the same when we feel anger. But both are as divine. The gods have always been generous with sending their wrath upon the world.
that is why we are here, to grow and learn to love. We are the ones who are imperfect. If you look at the rest of creation that we know of, we are the only ones capable of knowing what is right and wrong. Because of that we have a certain responsibility that the rest of creation does not have. We are genuinely special in this conscious state. We are spiritual beings and if there is any real refernce to good and evil then to me this would signify that there are different paths to follow spiritually. Real love does not hurt those they love, again we are imperfect and growing spiritually. For me personally, if you love someone you try not to hurt them. You try and show respect no matter where one is in life. But yes, I fall short if this...did any of you know that's actually the meaning of sin? To fall short.
Because we have the conscience ability to decern we are responsible for what we put back into this world by pur actions..pure love would be so beyond us imperfect beings to understand. But if it means going to heaven and praising god for eternity, I'm out because that sounds boring as hell. We grow. Think, we are in a womb where our world is different than this before we are born here. We begin as a seed in our mothers tummy that we are here taking on the world and learning the basics of love and compassion. As we developed in our mothers wombs to shape what we are here, when we die, we pass agin into a new stage of existance and what we do here will shape whst we are then. For tou Christians out there Jesus said there are many rooms in gods house. We are growing spiritually alw always
Well, changing the definition of god makes it pretty easy for god to exist. When it comes to debates of this matter, most people just debate whether Yahweh, Allah, or some other god of a major religion. If you want to say God is absolute energy, and essentially what makes up the universe, then God exists. Not as a being like we like to imagine. In that sense, God is neither omnipotent, and it's even hard to say he's omnipresent, and there really isn't an argument you could make for god being omniscient. The rational person would then ask, why call that energy god? Why worship it? Why treat it as more than it is? If god can be something as... I hate to use the word mundane or insignificant, but lacking in the magnificent significance of the god or gods we otherwise try to posit as being the true god(s), then why do we consider it god? Why can't it be something else?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamwalkwr
Calling it and treating it like something else helps us for a few reasons in this case. One, it stops the confusion caused by referring it to god, like the kind like christians, jews, muslims, hindus, or other religions worship. People instantly associate the word god with those concepts. Secondly, it helps us to stop associating this "god" you refer to with the lores of said religions and prevents you from coming to any biased conclusions. Case in point, you believe you saw a spirit. If you do not believe in the god that these religions all recognize, then why do you believe in concepts associated with these religions? Spirits and souls are something that belong to those mythologies. What makes you believe in them exactly? Because you associate them with the various other concepts of god you are familiar with? Why don't you chalk your experience up to one of the many times the brain misinterprets reality? Isn't it possible it was a delusion, hallucination, or something else that you wound up deciding was encountering a spirit using confirmation bias (that is, you wanted to believe it was a spirit)? All of those are normal to experience even as a healthy human, once in a while. Why is encountering a spirit more plausible than natural phenomena that are well documented and happen all the time? And lastly, calling this something other than god allows you to come to a better understanding of what you believe the energy or whatever actually is. It isn't constrained to the ideas and concepts of what god is supposed to be like. It allows you to look at the situation more objectively.
Honestly I don't care if someone believes in God as a personal belief. The problem is that pretty much all religions dictate that you are to spread the religion, that religious laws trump the laws of whatever country you are in (especially when it comes to Islam and Sharia law), and that there are other archaic customs associated with them--like how male circumcision is common place in the West (even though it does prevent infection, this next example is less forgiving), and female genital mutilation can occur in Islam. In both cases, genitals are painfully mutilated in accordance with religious belief, partially (if not totally, as with the case of female genital mutilation) to decrease sexual satisfaction or prevent masturbation. It also prevents civil rights of many citizens. Gay people couldn't marry before not too long ago in the United States, and there are cases cropping up all over Europe where Muslim Migrants are not adhering to the civil rights of the countries they are living in, and treating their wives as property. This isn't even mentioning abortion or contraceptAll of this would be fine if they simply wanted to believe in God and that's fine just for them alone, but when you look at all these things that religion demands of its followers, it's toxic. No matter what perceived good the people that follow these religions think they get from believing in God, the amount of bad that comes out of it (even if it's not personally from them, many other people in their group ruin it for them) is inexcusable.
I don't propose that religious freedom be revoked as a right or anything, but you can't ignore the problems it causes. We're all stuck dealing with their failure to adapt and alter their behavior in accordance with law that doesn't discriminate against others for their race, sex, sexual preference, religious choices, or anything else. It's understandable that some people, therefore, harbor animosity toward the religious, especially the overzealous.
Hi Snoop I told you before that genital mutilation was never ever mentioned or demanded in Islam,I know because I'm a Moslem ,and it's only done out of irrespect for women this is how I view it.and God doesn't force you to follow any rules it's up to you to decide to be a believer or an atheist like I said before in another thread that this debates are so frustrating and at the same time so interesting because we get to discuss God and at the end we all finish the topic without agreeing on anything as always. We the moderate people are victims of the overzealous of the Moslems the Christian the Jews this is why we question the veracity of any religion I don't blame Snoop for being so passionate I can tell that he's disheartened by all this ,if you follow science or any religion they won't give a satisfactory answer,the only person that can help you in your quest is yourself one day you will see the light and this will emanate within you ,I will spare youthe old cliche ;-)for me God exists big time and my heart is filled with love for everybody and everything because love is the remedy for all pain :)
I understand your point of view, I understand it's hard to hear somebody who doesn't fully understand what they're talking about in regards to your own faith too. But hear me out, most of what I'm talking about hear is specifically the zealots in religion. Unfortunately, as with most things, a few ruin just about everything for the entire bunch. It's why I don't say that people shouldn't be allowed to be religious or anything. I'm just asking for people to honestly look at the big picture. As I mentioned, even if you aren't personally responsible for the wrong doing, it still happens as a result of the religion being organized. I have nothing wrong with a personal connection with god, and feeling a sense of community with those who also believe in god. It's just that there's always going to be people who take things too far. There is a reason religion is such a touchy subject in politics and in social situations (unless you only hang around with others who share the same faith as you). It's because it's so close to people's hearts, and it affects more than just them personally. It affects everybody, not just the people that follow the religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amedee
I should reiterate that I don't actually harbor any animosity toward somebody who simply takes part in any particular faith. However, I also can't be nice to appease people when I have serious issues about the very serious ramifications that come with organized religion, and the political power it holds. I am indiscriminate in this, and see problems with just about every organized religion. If it seems like I'm picking on a particular faith, it's simply because the examples I used were chosen kind of at random, and if there are more of one religion than another, it's not because I hate that particular religion. I have just as much problems with Christianity as I do Islam, for example. It's regrettable that I have to hold opinions that could be offense to people I consider myself friends with, but there are some things you simply can't avoid. I try to avoid sounding like someone terribly anti-religion, but it's easy to go on rants like this, lol. I don't have problems with believing in God at all, I have problems with people's rights being infringed or curtailed. Unfortunately, on this issue, organized religion and I collide a lot. It simply can't be helped, I'm afraid.
well said snoop coudnt have put it better. Thats about how I feel about religions. There is this quote:
Religion, is like a penis.
It's okay to have one.
It's okay to be proud of it.
...
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around, trying to shove it down everybody's throat.
I absolutely agree, the problem with religions is that they usually inevitably force their beliefs upon others even in countries that are considered "secular". I ve heard that in some states in U.S open atheists cant assume public offices etc. Discrimnations runs deep, wether its against heretics,non believers or just gays. Its religion and religious beliefs that drived this mad man from Orlando who shot 50 people...
Its religion and religious beliefs that pushed people to burn woman at stake in Middle Ages.
I still believe that god is spirit and that there is a conscienceness that is a part of all creation because again, as I said before, god created all things and that is how I can perceive god as omniscient. I've also had different experiences than others and have built my insites apon what my path in life and my own search for truth has shown me. This doesn't make me right either, it is simply what I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by snoop
I've listened to a few modern spiritual teachers (Mooji, Eckhart Tolle to name a few) and looked into Buddhism, and they don't talk about God as an external mighty being who controls the universe, but simply as pure unadulterated consciousness without the trappings of the mind or ego. From what I've gathered, it's said that there's only a single universal consciousness, which is being reflected throughout the universe by all living beings, giving the illusion that consciousness is unique to the individual. When a being dies, the soul or consciousness doesn't really go anywhere. It's always been at the source, it just mistakenly thought it was separate from it. I imagine this as being akin to electricity and an electrical device. Electricity flows wherever it can, being everywhere and nowhere. And it seems that true spirituality is about removing all the crap that lies on top of this 'essential self' in order to realise your true nature, not separate from anything else. But who knows eh? Just saying, it seems language really gets in the way when it comes to spirituality, since everyone has their own meaning of the word 'God'.
For some time, i ve also been intrested in buddhism and Eckhart Tolle teachings ( thats why i started meditating regularly in the first place) however still there is no scientific evidence of this "soul"... So we can logically rule this out until some real, concrete evidence shows up.
I was at a sleepover at a friends house and was warned by her that if the lights flicker or the sterio cuts out it's just the ghost. I thought she was pulling my leg but she insisted that the spirit of a woman would sit on the foot ofher bed in the night and brush its hair. Spooky but yeah right I thought. So we were all in the basement and there were about 4 of us. We decided to sleep in the rucous room floor. All wrappwd up in our blankets, everyone had fallen asleep except me. I was reAlly cold and uncomfortable. I roll over and see the light is on in the stairwell leading upstairs and a man is siluetted in the light just standing there watching us. At first I was a bit shocked but then thought, oh the dad is home and came downstairs to check on us. I had only met the mom. So I said hi.
The man turned back to the stairwell and proceeded to disappear with the dimming stairwell light (it was not a dimmer light either) of course this is scary but what happened next was really strange. A large blue orb came back out of that hallway and floated about 4 feet off the ground down the back hallway to where the washer and dryer were kept. It would pulse and I could see the glow of it get beighter and dimmer on the walls of the back room where it was now hidden from my immediate site. At this point I ran to wake ip my friend and the spirit just dissapeard. It was real, not some misunderstood phenomenon. Before I saw the spirit I was feeling like I may have eaten something bad but after that encounter I got so ill (it only lasted about 20 minutes) I was weak and shaky and got down on my knees to make it to the washroom where I was throwing up. everything went black and I started blinking but I couldnt see anything. It was daylight early morning now and there was plenty of light but I couldnt see anything, this scared the hell out of me and lasted about 5 minuytes. Spirits are real. I'm not just talking ghosts either, this thing knew I saw it, it was messing with me on purpose