Thread: Any christians here?

The correct religion is revealed here:

LiveLeak.com - Gnome -The Correct Answer is the Mormon's (comments)

Oh well - you do what you do Original Poster!

Originally Posted by dollarway64

And i still respectfully disagree

Of course you do!
How about coming on over into the Moses thread and telling us your take on that particular tale?

Hm - fascinating - what brought you down to earth about his post, Gavin?
That he's been through so many religions and safely arrived in rational waters around this topic?
Bipolar moods and spirituality are quite connected in some way, I believe..

Originally Posted by StephL

Hm - fascinating - what brought you down to earth about his post, Gavin?
That he's been through so many religions and safely arrived in rational waters around this topic?
Bipolar moods and spirituality are quite connected in some way, I believe..

I had a manic episode a while ago and I became somewhat delusional. I was spending a fair bit of time learning about Sikh, Islamic, Buddhist, Taoist, etc philosophy and getting caught up in it all, so when I saw Universal's post, I was like "Oh lawdy, what a fucking hippie... oh wait..."

His post sort of served as a mirror, I guess.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

It's a very treatable condition, if you follow all of the rules of treating it.

Yeah, I've been familiarizing myself with the process these last few weeks. I'm passed the worst of it. Now that I know what to watch out for, I have certain strategies and systems in place to keep my mood within a reasonable range. I've also been reading up on the disorder so I'm growing fairly comfortable with it. It tends to freak people out when they're diagnosed with it, but I first found out about the illness through a book called "A First Rate Madness." It covers world leaders that likely had the mood disorder (Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr., Gahndi, etc) so it put a positive spin on the whole thing in my eyes. I was surprised by how much I was able to relate to it, and by the the time was finished reading it, I had spiraled into full blown mania.

I even drew up a blueprint for an nonviolent political organization that would have been loosely based on the Black Panthers of the 1960's and Napoleon Bonaparte's Grande Armée. Much of it was delusional nonsense, but some of it was realistically feasible if, and only if, our current socio-political climate began to mirror the radical 1960's (it was Huey Newton's bipolar disorder and messiah complex that birthed the Black Panthers afterall). Needless to say, I threw away the notebooks and have spent the last few months undoing some of the personality changes those grandiose thought patterns brought about in me. Some of the changes were for the better though - I've managed to reform myself from a lazy degenerate to a dedicated philanthropist, and have become fascinated with concepts like democracy, justice, morality, etc.

The delusions of grandeur are gone, and I'm left with an almost fanatical zeal for higher education. Thoughts of suicide - which have plagued me since childhood - have been replaced with a desire to learn as much as I can before I die. Hell, more than mere desire, it feels like a moral obligation. I've been rifling through countless books on politics, law, psychology, history, military maxims and stratagems, philosophy, the fine arts, etc... and with each text and tome I gorge myself upon, my appetite for knowledge grows evermore insatiable. Once I begin treatment and recover from the effects of the illness (it's taken a considerable toll on my physical health), I'm going back to university and studying more diligently than any motherfucker that's ever set foot on that campus.

That's a good attitude. Determination is the main thing you need for handling the situation. It is true that a lot of brilliant, talented, and extra strong people have been bipolar. Some people think it's because of having a chemical imbalance that comes with having a special brain. In that case, being bipolar isn't a strength. It just comes along with strength. It can mess things up, though. The fact that strong people have had it doesn't mean that treating it won't make you stronger.

I really find it deeply disappointing, that all the Christians on board avoid the topic like the devil holy water!
And it's not just coffee shop Christians on here - we got (at least) an apostolian and a biblical litereralist aiming to become a pastor - nobody willing to declare their faith and enter a debate??
Is your faith really that weak, gals and guys?
Come on!!
duel.gif



Very lucid post Universal Mind! smile.gif

@Gavin: Sounds good! Stay alert now, though - look out for yourself not slipping into a depression in the aftermath - esp. since you are no stranger to them. There are good possibilities to treat depression these days, there really are.
Of course I hold all thumbs and big toes for it not happening (German idiom, without the toes, though, usually just thumbs must suffice ).
I have book tips for you: Tom Wootton - "The Bipolar Advantage" or "Bipolar In Order" - bipolar himself, Wootton has a wonderful personal outlook on it all - while not opposing medical treatment at the same time. The first chapters: Bipolar Advantage Podcast Channel
I hope, you enjoy it!
I have read "A First Rate Madness" as well - while it is interesting and a good read in the beginning - I find some of his deductions about historical persons quite weak up to non-conclusive. Anyway - I enjoyed the first part.
If you want to watch a good movie on topic - it's a bit sad, though: "The Hours".
Has three strands of narrative, one of which is Virginia Wolf writing a novel, another woman reading it, and yet another living out the theme of it. One of my all-time favourite movies - get the tissue paper out in time, though.

My warmest wishes for you!

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The fact that strong people have had it doesn't mean that treating it won't make you stronger.

Yeah, I've no qualms with treatment. I cycle far too quickly for me to bother going it alone without professional help.

Originally Posted by StephL

@Gavin: Sounds good! Stay alert now, though - look out for yourself not slipping into a depression in the aftermath - esp. since you are no stranger to them. There are good possibilities to treat depression these days, there really are.
Of course I hold all thumbs and big toes for it not happening (German idiom, without the toes, though, usually just thumbs must suffice ).
I have book tips for you: Tom Wootton - "The Bipolar Advantage" or "Bipolar In Order" - bipolar himself, Wootton has a wonderful personal outlook on it all - while not opposing medical treatment at the same time. The first chapters: Bipolar Advantage Podcast Channel
I hope, you enjoy it!
I have read "A First Rate Madness" as well - while it is interesting and a good read in the beginning - I find some of his deductions about historical persons quite weak up to non-conclusive. Anyway - I enjoyed the first part.
If you want to watch a good movie on topic - it's a bit sad, though: "The Hours".
Has three strands of narrative, one of which is Virginia Wolf writing a novel, another woman reading it, and yet another living out the theme of it. One of my all-time favourite movies - get the tissue paper out in time, though.

My warmest wishes for you!

Thanks, I'll check those out. And as for "A First Rate Madness," I read some of the criticisms of that book, so I know it's a little off at parts. It was mainly a fun little read that got made me a little more comfortable with the disorder.

Is the debate these days not "what is a Christian in the first place?"

I love the historical figure that Jesus was, and all that he represented. I also believe he was an extremely enlightening individual... and unarguably the most influential person in the history of humanity (but I'm not here to debate our opinions of history, or even debate at all.)

So yes I am a ZEALOUS follower of Jesus, the lowly laborer who was baptized by John. I wish to finish what he set out to do, and that was to abolish the EVIL SUPPRESSION and WORLD SYSTEM of IMPERALISM (abolishing = the bringing of the Kingdom of God.) Jesus taught His disciples that the only way we were going to be able to do this was to control our human desires that imperialism , greed, and suppression created for us. He taught to have faith in God, the Great Spirit, the Great Master, the Tao.... whatever you want to call it. He taught us to have faith in the Tao, that suffering is okay because it is a fact of life. But Jesus also taught that the best form of worship to God is serving these less-fortunate people.

That is MY take on Christinaity, and I call myself a follower of Jesus, and a Christian.

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

Is the debate these days not "what is a Christian in the first place?"

I love the historical figure that Jesus was, and all that he represented. I also believe he was an extremely enlightening individual... and unarguably the most influential person in the history of humanity (but I'm not here to debate our opinions of history, or even debate at all.)

So yes I am a ZEALOUS follower of Jesus, the lowly laborer who was baptized by John. I wish to finish what he set out to do, and that was to abolish the EVIL SUPPRESSION and WORLD SYSTEM of IMPERALISM (abolishing = the bringing of the Kingdom of God.) Jesus taught His disciples that the only way we were going to be able to do this was to control our human desires that imperialism , greed, and suppression created for us. He taught to have faith in God, the Great Spirit, the Great Master, the Tao.... whatever you want to call it. He taught us to have faith in the Tao, that suffering is okay because it is a fact of life. But Jesus also taught that the best form of worship to God is serving these less-fortunate people.

That is MY take on Christinaity, and I call myself a follower of Jesus, and a Christian.

I think that's what a Christian is supposed to be. I prefer to qualify the rest as Biblicans.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

I think that's what a Christian is supposed to be. I prefer to qualify the rest as Biblicans.

I think you're right. But these days does anyone care?

Originally Posted by Sageous

I think you're right. But these days does anyone care?

I don't know, ask the 2+ billion people who culturally associate with the religion.

^^ And if we did ask them, would they care? I mean, would they care about being a christian in the terms that Christ originally laid out, or will they simply find contentment or completion in dogmatically assuming everything in the Bible is true, even though Jesus himself was wiling to take exception with much of it? "Care" ought not be conflated with simply following current doctrines or tenets, I think -- and I have to wonder how many of those 2 billion really do care...

Kind of a minor point in the greater context of this thread, but it caught my attention:

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

He taught us to have faith in the Tao, that suffering is okay because it is a fact of life.

Suffering is okay in what sense? That we should recognize that it happens, or that it is a positive thing?

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Kind of a minor point in the greater context of this thread, but it caught my attention:



Suffering is okay in what sense? That we should recognize that it happens, or that it is a positive thing?

That physical and emotional suffering and inevitable. Because we, our inner spirit, are in human bodies with both emotions and certain biological processes that can cause us great pain. We are are going to suffer...that is a fact of life... but it is okay because in the end, all those with a pure heart, will cease to suffer once their spirit leaves their body.

As far as answering the question as to why some suffer more than others? And why is there unfathomable amounts of suffering around the world? I don't know the answer to that. HA, I don't know the answer to anything... but especially that! But I do know that I find happiness is serving those less fortunate than me. I'm not wealthy by any means, but the way I see it, it is each and every one of our utmost responsibility to help those in life who got dealt lesser cards than us. And I believe that was the core of Jesus message.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

I think that's what a Christian is supposed to be. I prefer to qualify the rest as Biblicans.

LOL... all because of those damn Romans.

Being as how I have an evolutionary perspective on religion, I suppose the labels don't matter. But it's nice to separate holier than thou, self-absorbed and judgmental douchebags from the Christians that actually help and keep open hearts. Granted, the label you give yourself holds no weight on your character anyway. For every kind atheist, there's an obtuse dickbag and you'll never be enough of a hippie for some hippie or dirty enough for some dirty kid or straight-laced enough for some Mormon.

So no, labels do not need to perfectly encapsulate what they're labeling, and rarely do. Marriage equality doesn't mean equality for polygamists and being pro-choice doesn't implicate the choice to own slaves or something. And I suppose the all you can do is get over it and live your life.

If you want to give yourself a label, it's either to include yourself in a community or to explain yourself for others. Whenever possible I like to avoid labeling myself, people will put enough labels on me as it is, I don't really need to participate.

^^ I wasn't "arguing" anything, I was asking a question. And that question is indeed "Do those 2 billion really care what the messiah taught, or do they care more about what the current interpretations of the Bible tell them to care about?" Simple question, not an argument, and maybe one worth asking.

After all, in this world of guns, every man for himself, nationalism, and endless volleys of righteous indignation, is there even any room left for crazy little ideas like the Golden Rule or turning the other cheek? If we asked those 2 billion if they as individuals were no more important than any of the other 5 billion on this planet, would they say they were not? I myself wonder.

The gap between what that guy Jesus tried to teach and what these modern 2 billion believers believe has expanded so far that I fear only a precious few can still straddle it and remember what it originally meant to be Christian.

So no argument; just a question, a rhetorical one at that, I guess.

[full discloseure: i was born a catholic, was raised a catholic, and went to catholic school for all of the 16yrs I attended, so I guess I am one of those 2 billion -- if you ask me]

I agree, it is a question worth asking. And perhaps you are right. Perhaps, Christianity is becoming watered down into an apathetic religion . After all, a Catholic student of 16 years thinks that "the Golden Rule" is just a crazy little idea. That is the core of Jesus' teaching! I think that statement alone shows the direction the religion has taken as a whole.

I also think you're right that some are just looking for security and meaning and they find that in Christianity. And that the dogmatic traditions of Christianity go unquestioned. Is that wrong? I don't think so. A blind man can't lead another blind man... I find that it's helpful to have spiritual guidance.

I, however, find that you are mind-reading the desires of a LOT of good-intentioned people. Maybe you are projecting your own assumptions onto these 2 billion Christians and portraying them as apathetic sheep. You seem pretty confident in asking your "rhetorical question." Maybe you're right, maybe Christians have just become aphetic sheep who don't question anything their pastor preaches...

Or maybe you are just projecting your own feelings towards the religion onto everybody else? Not everybody has such a weak-willed nature towards accepting the esoteric...

^^ Sorry: When I was calling the Golden Rule crazy I was being intentionally sarcastic/ironic. I figured you would understand that. So, in case you didn't, I was pointing out that the core of Jesus' teaching has been left behind -- not forgotten, perhaps, but instead shrouded in 20 centuries of rules, words, and man-made dogma that have reduced doing unto others to a relative term.

Regarding the mind-reading bit: perhaps I am projecting my own feelings toward what has become of christianity on everyone else... but that projection is a reflection of decades of mindful observation, not some selfish discomfort with faith (I'm fine with it).

I have no idea what "weak-willed nature toward accepting the esoteric" even means, but I assume it is another insult. That's just fine; I'll turn the other cheek while you do unto others! Still, I'm just fine with the esoteric, BTW, and I think I've been investigating it long enough now that I feel no weakness at all about it...

It wasn't an insult at all Sageous, and I'm sorry if you took anything I that way! That is literally how I interpreted your description of the majority of Christians (and still do?)

I can tell which direction this discussion has gone, and I'm done with this conversation. I really am sorry if I came across the wrong way. I just find your opinion of the "majority of Christians" to be extremely subjective... that the majority don't question what they believe. And I simply disagree with that surprisingly broad assumption.

Good Night! :-)

^^ Fair enough...

Though I made a broad assumption to make a point and not declare a truth (remember I was asking a question), I do agree that the direction of this conversation is becoming useless, so I'll say G'Night as well.

Oh, and if you ever come across an opinion that is not subjective, let me know!

How could I have overlooked this?
Wow – a ZEALOT, in capital letters, no less - and all and everything you believe to know, is that it feels good to be kind.

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

Is the debate these days not "what is a Christian in the first place?"

Good question – and you didn’t answer it yourself, either – the above (and below) is no more than wishi-washi.

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

I love the historical figure that Jesus was, and all that he represented. I also believe he was an extremely enlightening individual... and unarguably the most influential person in the history of humanity (but I'm not here to debate our opinions of history, or even debate at all.)

Okay - no problem with that - so there was a guy, who spoke wisdom, and was hugely influential.

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

So yes I am a ZEALOUS follower of Jesus, the lowly laborer who was baptized by John.

How does it follow from the above to be a ZEALOT - is this how you see yourself:

an immoderate, fanatical, radical or even militant adherent to a cause, esp a religious one

Wonderful - Christian zealots are among the worst people in my eyes - and they usually avoid denominating themselves such in polite conversation. My guess is - you just thought it sounds cool.

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

I wish to finish what he set out to do, and that was to abolish the EVIL SUPPRESSION and WORLD SYSTEM of IMPERALISM (abolishing = the bringing of the Kingdom of God.)

What is EVIL SUPPRESSION? Synonymous to imperialism?
It has never been the goal of Christianity to abolish imperialism – Jesus himself supposedly said, give to Caesar, what is his – namely the taxes – and that the kingdom of heaven is to be found within – explicitly discouraging from interfering with the empire.
And later on Christianity was undoubtedly one of the main driving forces of imperialism itself – proselytizing included.
It’s nice you don’t like imperialism – but you can hardly claim, that’s inherent in Christianity.

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

Jesus taught His disciples that the only way we were going to be able to do this was to control our human desires that imperialism , greed, and suppression created for us.

What?
Are human desires not supposed to come from Satan? You do believe in Satan, I guess?
So now human desires spring forth from imperialism and greed?
Does that include sexual desire? I am intrigued..
So by suppressing desires, we can abolish imperialism and "evil suppression" and greed, where these desires came from in the first place?
I have never set eye on this specific quirky interpretation before – and if I did – it wouldn’t make sense anyway. You want to proclaim your course of zealotry action here, and are totally confused about what is what, and comes from where – not convincing.

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

He taught to have faith in God, the Great Spirit, the Great Master, the Tao.... whatever you want to call it. He taught us to have faith in the Tao, that suffering is okay because it is a fact of life.

Um - one cannot help but acknowledge that suffering is a fact of life. That has absolutely no bearing on it being okay or not. See below.
Also - you are aware that what you say about there being an overlap between Tao and god is blasphemy, aren't you?
And the overwhelming majority of your 2 billion would see it as such as well?
There is no doubt about Christianity being of the firm opinion to have the only veracity at all - no other system, let alone one openly promoting magical practices could possibly have a place in that.
You can believe whatever exotic things you want - but don't hide behind the number 2 billion in justification then!

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

But Jesus also taught that the best form of worship to God is serving these less-fortunate people.

Well - finally something at least congruent with the usual doctrine.

It is okay they suffer - god doesn't bother to do something about it - but you must worship him anyway, and it's your job to deal with the misery.

Not that it was anything original to say, one should be kind to other people - that is what is innate in humans, even some animals - baseline moral compass. For a religion to take credit for empathy is laughable.
This famous golden rule (treat others as you would like to be treated…) has been uttered uncountable times in uncountable places by uncountable people in more or less the same form. Why did anybody pay so much attention to Jesus?

Because of the pretty miracles – why else?
Think about it - either he was the real deal and did his miracles - or he was an enormously gifted illusionist, faking it - there are only two possibilities.
I find it strange, when people say, they don't believe in the miracles, but they think Christ was enlightened and wise and adorable anyway.
Either they happened - or he was a fraud!
He justified himself with these activities – it would never have made it into a book, his wisdom, without the magical demonstrations - up to his resurrection and rise to heaven, but also while his time - either you believe in miracles - or you believe Jesus was a confidence trickster.

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

That is MY take on Christinaity, and I call myself a follower of Jesus, and a Christian.

It amazes me, that you believe, you have said anything of relevance up to now – it really does.

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

That physical and emotional suffering and inevitable. Because we, our inner spirit, are in human bodies with both emotions and certain biological processes that can cause us great pain. We are are going to suffer...that is a fact of life... but it is okay because in the end, all those with a pure heart, will cease to suffer once their spirit leaves their body.

Ah – now finally here comes something, which “makes sense”. You believe, that as a good Christian, you will be rewarded with an afterlife – and a blissful one I suppose.
That’s a classical justification to believe – averting the fear of the absoluteness of death and clinging to the promise of divine “justice”.
Let’s say, there is an immortal soul - how do you know, there will be justice and all will be good?
How do you know, what constitutes a pure heart and if you have one?
How about your friends and loved ones who have failed - wonderful people, despite being atheists - how could you be happy in heaven, knowing they burn for eternity, and the devil even grows them new skin to burn away over and over? Or do you categorically refuse to feel empathy with atheists?
How do you know any of this?
Because there is a book, and it says so in it? Do you take it word by word for the truth?
If not - how do you decide, which parts of it to discard?
You do discard stuff – otherwise you couldn’t come up with your weird ideas, see above.
And why bother at all then - you can find the same basic wisdoms in humanism, without the hocus-pocus and atrocities of esp. the Old Testament?
I do find the thought of a scape-goat human sacrifice to pin ones sins on atrocious either, by the way.

A "good" atheist of saintly behavior goes to hell, and a coward of a psychopath finds to Jesus in his last hour and a panic, and goes to heaven - or how is it? Fair?

Originally Posted by LucidTruth

As far as answering the question as to why some suffer more than others? And why is there unfathomable amounts of suffering around the world? I don't know the answer to that. HA, I don't know the answer to anything... but especially that!
But I do know that I find happiness is serving those less fortunate than me. I'm not wealthy by any means, but the way I see it, it is each and every one of our utmost responsibility to help those in life who got dealt lesser cards than us. And I believe that was the core of Jesus message.

At least you realized the emptiness of your above statement on suffering as a justification to have faith of all things.

But - the central message of Christianity is that it feels good to be kind to others??

Who on earth needs to be told that? Every child finds that out herself!
And neuroscience finds stuff like mirror neurons ..

No - the central message of Christianity is that you have to obey god's rules or face the most horrible punishment for eternity, and that there is a reward for unquestioningly obeying as well. The most precious human delusion - promise of life after death.

What an unsorted salad, your faith-declarations – besides the above central message – what else do you believe?
Let’s get down to some basics:

Creation when and how?
Adam and Eve, original sin?
Are we are all born sinners, without and before ever doing anything immoral, and we need Christianity, to absolve us from it?
Hell? Does everybody go there, who has had the chance to look into Christianity, and doesn't start to believe - whatever s/he did or didn't do in life?
Moses, genocide and the ark?
Virgin birth and miracles and ascending to heaven?
Second coming?
Armageddon?
The dead rising in the flesh?

Excellent post, Steph, and I hope LucidTruth responds just as excellently!

One small clarification, though:

Originally Posted by StephL

No - the central message of Christianity is that you have to obey god's rules or face the most horrible punishment for eternity, and that there is a reward for unquestioningly obeying as well. The most precious human delusion - promise of life after death.

Actually, that's more a caricature of Christianity then a central message. Yes, there is a resurging crowd of fundamentalists who believe this (and also that bit about a very good atheist going to hell but a last-minute repentant psychopath being saved), but I don't think that reflects the central message of Christianity.

In fact, I believe that one of the reasons Jesus showed up in the first place was to dispel messages like this, to urge us to be good to everyone, and to tell us that every person has God in him, whether she believes it or not. That so much of Christianity has embraced this odd "believe or be damned" tenet is quite sad, and more than a little disturbing.

I'm not sure this really has much to do with your general arguments, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

Originally Posted by StephL

Because of the pretty miracles – why else?
Think about it - either he was the real deal and did his miracles - or he was an enormously gifted illusionist, faking it - there are only two possibilities.
I find it strange, when people say, they don't believe in the miracles, but they think Christ was enlightened and wise and adorable anyway.
Either they happened - or he was a fraud!
He justified himself with these activities – it would never have made it into a book, his wisdom, without the magical demonstrations - up to his resurrection and rise to heaven, but also while his time - either you believe in miracles - or you believe Jesus was a confidence trickster.

Well there is a third option as I see it. Perhaps these miracle stories were constructions of a mythos around a central figure? Reading the Gospels and/or the Epistles chronologically might yield some interesting insights.

As an aside, I will go out on a limb and mention that miracles were/are kind of a dime a dozen and certainly couldn't/can't support any "proof" of divinity. As I understand, miracles weren't unheard of before Jesus. Many of the various traditions point(ed) to their own miracles as some sort of "OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD" kind of mentality. Even today, there are stories of "holy" people performing the similar (if not the same) miracles that have been attributed to Jesus. So if miracles are a form of divinity, there are/were a lot of divine people rolling around through our timeline (and they aren't all Christian). So Jesus manifesting miracles is really irrelevant. I do find the notion of miracles, outside of pure statistical chance, to be a bit preposterous. However, if anyone ever instantly heals an amputee it would certainly have me questioning my position.

In any case, I think that you laid down a pretty good argument and I am interested in the response to this post.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You would be surprised to find out how much atheists tend to know about the Bible. What claims can you contradict with Bible verses?

Indeed!
My impression goes, that if all supposed Christians would read the bible and read it in an English, they can actually follow - there wouldn't exactly be many left. And I am very much with you - I want to see the bible verses, which contradict my claims, Sensei - give me a proper exegesis!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Excellent post, Steph, and I hope LucidTruth responds just as excellently!

One small clarification, though:

Actually, that's more a caricature of Christianity then a central message. Yes, there is a resurging crowd of fundamentalists who believe this (and also that bit about a very good atheist going to hell but a last-minute repentant psychopath being saved), but I don't think that reflects the central message of Christianity.

In fact, I believe that one of the reasons Jesus showed up in the first place was to dispel messages like this, to urge us to be good to everyone, and to tell us that every person has God in him, whether she believes it or not. That so much of Christianity has embraced this odd "believe or be damned" tenet is quite sad, and more than a little disturbing.

I'm not sure this really has much to do with your general arguments, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

Thank you Sageous - but I am afraid it was Jesus alright, who said such things - over and over.
Well - except you take the viewpoint, that everything, which doesn't fit with the pretty picture must be mythology, made up, put in his mouth - but thing is - it does fit, there is no pretty picture and he kept making sure, not to be misunderstood:

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

There is also no doubt, that he said, who does not believe in him and god goes to hell - it is evens so, that you get punished for what your city elders decide on the matter:

Behold: Matthew 10

10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
10:12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

So far so good - he sends out his disciples - they should not go to the Samaritans and the gentile - not to the intelligentsia - but to the gullible.
They shall perform miracles and raise people from the dead and preach and tell them the end of the world is near. That's what they actually thought - Armageddon within their lifetimes - that's for another bible-session. But it makes a lot of things more clear, if you keep that in mind.
Like - see the birds and flowers in the field - they work not, but the Lord provides for them ...
Anyway - now it gets interesting:

10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Soo - if a whole city does not want to listen to the preachings - a worse fate even than Sodom and Gomorrha will befall the whole city.
Niiice! Not only the ones not believing - even those not hearing the message, because their city wouldn't let them!

10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Riight - if they are in and people don't like the preachings, then they would start to speak in tongues, inspired by God, and that would then elicit the following self-punishments:

10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Ah - one more hint at doom is near - coming while the disciples are still teaching!

10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Uups - thought, that souls are indestructible??
Funny - I just dug that up for the cities that won't listen - but like usual with the bible - start reading and the idiocy of it becomes clear enough.

10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

There - the atheists! And more loveliness - including the advice to make a martyr of yourself - oh - and it's not enough to believe - you got to love god more than any other being, otherwise it doesn't count:

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

"Typically church" - they watered that down, the Catholics, in some council or other, and said, that you don't go to hell, if you didn't have the chance to listen to the happy news. They had to decree that - it contradicts the above and other passages. Sometimes the church seems to be nicer and more well-meaning than the original. Chilling thought.

And in general - does anybody reading this, have the feeling of listening to a wise and enlightened person - full of love and forgiveness?
This is a long passage - is there anything of spiritual value in it?
Compare that to the teachings of the Buddha - striking difference, isn't there?

Originally Posted by Sensei

I am a full blown Christian literalist and aspiring pastor. as StephL said. haha.

@StephL our last conversation ran dry? I believe that I joined saying that I didn't want an argument, but that I would answer her questions. I answered and she argued back. I read all of your response and checked it against my previous post and realized that all the questions that you responded with were already answered in the first post, so I didn't feel like retyping my 5 page response. If you wanted my opinion, you had it, if you want to argue about what I believe, you will have to talk to someone else, because I don't have to answer to you for what I believe. The truth will reveal itself at sometime (either in this life or after) and I will answer for what I believe then. Arguing never solved anything ever. If you want my opinion on something, then ask, if you want to change my opinion on something, then you are not welcome to that. Proof that you want to argue: everything that you posted other than that you mentioned that I was a christian, because you can post that anywhere.

@Everyone else
If you want to know what a Christian is, then read your Bible, especially the parts in red. Don't take your opinion from what you think the Bible says, or what some random pastor (or a kid training to be a pastor) says, but what does Jesus actually say? I could post verse after verse contradicting a lot that has been said, but unless you are looking for the truth yourself, you won't find it.

That's right - you do not have to engage in argument with me. But you didn't answer my questions - some, yes - but most not.
I tell you why I let off - I put you into the situation to consider, if your specific brand of faith would be okay with you LDing.
I think not - and I argued my case - the ultimate solution would be for you to speak openly and honestly to your spiritual leaders and ask their advice.
That you won't do - and sort of good you don't - I wouldn't want to rob you of your hobby - and I can't hope to rob you of your faith.
You are probably having a nice social environment, where everybody knows everybody else, and goes to church, and looks up to the preachers and that's what you want to have for yourself. I don't think, you especially care, actually.

But yeah - this "to everybody else" - please - post verse after verse to contradict my claims!
That's the least you could do as an aspiring biblical literalist pastor.
It is very cheap to point to the book and we should search ourselves - go do it, if you claim you can!
I am well able to do it your way - lets see, how firm you really are in scripture!

Originally Posted by balban

Well there is a third option as I see it. Perhaps these miracle stories were constructions of a mythos around a central figure? Reading the Gospels and/or the Epistles chronologically might yield some interesting insights.

As an aside, I will go out on a limb and mention that miracles were/are kind of a dime a dozen and certainly couldn't/can't support any "proof" of divinity. As I understand, miracles weren't unheard of before Jesus. Many of the various traditions point(ed) to their own miracles as some sort of "OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD" kind of mentality. Even today, there are stories of "holy" people performing the similar (if not the same) miracles that have been attributed to Jesus. So if miracles are a form of divinity, there are/were a lot of divine people rolling around through our timeline (and they aren't all Christian). So Jesus manifesting miracles is really irrelevant. I do find the notion of miracles, outside of pure statistical chance, to be a bit preposterous. However, if anyone ever instantly heals an amputee it would certainly have me questioning my position.

In any case, I think that you laid down a pretty good argument and I am interested in the response to this post.

Well yeah - that third possibility would be that there was a historical person Jesus - but everything in the New Testament pertaining to the miracles - including his own incessant mention of doing/having done them - is freely invented and without his intention and knowledge.
You could claim that, yepp - but I find it so highly unlikely, that I dismissed the possibility.
The whole (historical) story of his depends on flabbergasting the gullible masses with his tricks - see above, that's the entry ticket to be heard for his disciples too.
Anyway - amounts to the same conclusion - rubbbish.