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Let me ask you something (ineverwakeup97): do you believe God is omniscient? That he sees and knows all that has happened, is happening, or will happen? If so, doesn't that mean God knew everything would go to shit? Didn't God know Abram/Abraham's amount of faith?
Also, you didn't answer my question; why did God need to send a flood to erase the evil (morality is subjective, BTW)? Why didn't he just *poof* them all away?
These are good questions. God knew it would go to shit, and that's why He sent Jesus. So that if we believe He died for us we'd be saved. He tested Abraham's faith so he could truly see if he was worthy of creating great nations. Unfortunately the world was so screwed up after he died. Even if God tried to warn the people Himself, who would listen? Every aspect of life was evil. Noah was of the minority of good souls. And God couldn't exactly poof them away. He washed them away because you don't physically go to Heaven or Hell, your spirit goes. So I guess you do technically go physically. The Bible is hard to understand and believe, it can take years to prove its real to some people. But take my word for it, it changes lives. It's changed mine, and I've seen many full on hardcore atheists' in real life have their lives turned around. But, it's your free will to believe. And yes, God is omniscient, omnipotent, soviergn, veracite, and much more.
See I have a problem with any claim that the good souls were or are a small minority. I think that smacks of human interpretation to me, human judgemental interpretation.
What I believe happened is that there was a major flood, and the fire and brimstone preachers of that time just like the fire and brimstone preachers of our time reacted by saying that the natural disaster was caused by God punishing humans for being sinful. Some preachers do it nowadays too. I was visiting my home country of Poland one year when they had floods in Poland, and a Roman Catholic priest was preaching a sermon about how it was caused by Polish people being influenced by all the evil in American mass media culture of sin. I think people like that priest wrote the portion of the bible that deals with the story of Noah. Alas it is one of the most popular children's stories told to all Sunday school kids, belived because it has all those animals on a boat, what's not to love? However, it is a very problematic story, which I believe is based on judgemental people blaming God for a natural disaster, and engaging in the unfortunately very human practice of scapegoating those immoral people for the disaster, and also judgemental minority engaging in exclusive definition of righteousness. However, we got this story from the mouths of that very vocal very judgemental minority, so we do not know for sure whether the immorality really was as wide spread during those times as they claim. And believing in a loving God, I find it hard to believe that this God destroyed most of the world. In fact historians and archeologists do not have evidence to back up the story of such a flood that affected all the world. So I think the story is exaggerated or perhaps metaphorical, but not literal. And as I said, I believe the bias of the human authors who wrote down this story is probably significant. In fact, the thing that this story tells us is that at the time when it was written, those who controlled scripture were very judgemental people, so the fact that the story was written may tell us more than the content of the story. A lot of the Old Testament I think can be read as a story of evolution of religion and spirituality, telling us about how people's understanding of God changed over time.
Edit: I would say that the reason why God became incarnate as a human being may have been in part to clarify human misunderstandings about God, and in part for God to learn what it is like to be human. Yes, God is omniscient, so outside of time God knows everything including these lessons learned, but since God is omnipotent, he must have the ability to learn because there is nothing God cannot do, and that must include learning. And yes, I know that this is contradictory, and no I do not have a problem believing this particular contradiction, even if I do not fully understand it, but I think that is a reflection of my inability to fully understand God because I am human. I suspect though that God does not have a problem with this contradiction. Unless I am wrong of course, and God is laughing at this explanation.
Let me ask this then. If God is real and he loves everyone, and so want them to accept his love, why doesn't he reveal him self to people? If God is real, then clearly it is his fault there are so many atheist. All these atheist ask for proof that god is real, and god could effortlessly prove to them that he is, but he doesn't.
Clearly god isn't real, or if he is real he is actively tricking people into not believing him by placing overwhelming evidence to disprove his existent. If god was real, that would make him a bit of a psycho. Why would he fool us, then burn us in hell for not believing. It would be entirely his fault. I ask him for proof, and he provides me with proof that says he doesn't exist? That is pretty messed up.
ineverwakeup97:
If he is omnipotent (which is a paradox), then he could poof them all away. If he is omniscient, he would not need to test Abram.
Alric:
I wouldn't go as far to say that God is clearly not real. If we're talking about the way he's described in the Bible, that God cannot exist because of the paradoxes. However, the concept of a god is not in and of itself infeasible.
What if God is real, but he is fine with you being an atheist? If not believing in God is not an unpardonable sin, then God could afford to keep his existence hidden. Free will may lead to this, we have the freedom to believe or not to believe. There is greater potential for spiritual growth if everything is not laid out from the beginning, and mysteries engage/challenge our minds. We are all invited to explore spiritual issues, and grow at our own pace in the direction that each of us believes to lead to greater understanding and makes us better people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Then he's really sadistic and not really "good and loving" like you believe: look at the millions of atheists who died/are discriminated because they didn't/don't believe in god. All he would have to do was show himself and clear this injustice. A being that let's people suffer and die when he could easily save them is not loving at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoannaB
These "if"s up to some point are indicative of open-mindedness. After some point, they seem to become excuses (don't take this personally JoannaB, not my intention to insult anyone) from people who want to believe in god at any cost. Once again, it's fine, but what worries me if that people can justify anything about god. There's always a way out in which God is good.
People feel about things when they should be feeling about people and thinking about things. Then every time some idea/belief would be criticized, people wouldn't act like their identity is being attacked, because they would be merely thinking. This works outside of religion as well.
My biggest question is why're you guys asking so much about the Old Testament? The Old Testament is quite irrelevant. It does apply to the New Testament but the NT is more of what God wants us to follow. Hence calling it New. But to answer questions, no offense to Catholics but they have got it all wrong. They're trying hard to work to God and be good people. Once again, we CAN'T work our way to God. We just need to believe in Christ's death for our sins. To answer another one, God doesn't punish sinners anymore. He did in the OT, but with Christ there is no need. God didn't make a big flood in Poland happen. A big flood in Poland happened. God doesn't punish people. And to the other question, its like Santa Claus. Seeing is not believing. Now I know it's a bad comparison because Santa is fake and God is real...but you get the basic idea. Plus, if God made us believe that'd be against free will. You all seem to enjoy being athiest, but what if tomorrow you had no choice but to be Christian and do everything you're told? It would suck, right? So God allows us to freely believe what we want and do as we please. If he didn't let us have free will we'd be programmed robots. I couldn't do anything fun really, neither could you.
Funny thing is that we got so much evidence for Santa as we have for god: zero.Quote:
Santa is fake and God is real
This god is really having fun with mankind. The old man didn't even warns us that he changed the book. Besides, if you think there's no unstable behavior in the New Testament you probably skipped a few pages.Quote:
It does apply to the New Testament but the NT is more of what God wants us to follow. Hence calling it New.
Oh yes. And women that are raped and children that are murdered...they clearly had the free will to walk away...oh wait.Quote:
So God allows us to freely believe what we want and do as we please.
But sorry, I'll follow DarkMatters example and withdraw myself from arguing with you, as we clearly won't go anywhere if you ignore any arguments we make and resort to circular reasoning to prove your point.
I don't think it is right to blame God for cruelty people committed in his name. Yes, believers have killer atheists, and likewise people have been killed for believing in God, or believing in God differently than those people who killed them. But the ones responsible for the killings are the people who kill. And likewise it is humans who discriminate against other humans, whether it is for being believers or atheists or just different.
I think part of free will for humans requires God to sacrifice direct involvement to a certain extent.
Also the story of Jesus shows that God revealing himself more to humans is not necessarily the solution to stop people from killing. God revealed himself more by becoming human, and people killed him. So I do not think that our problems as a human race could be solved if only God revealed himself. We need to solve our own problems with God's help, but he will not solve our problems for us, that is part of the free will package that we signed up for when we ate from the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.
So...Hitler was innocent? He certainly must be more innocent than god, because god had all the tools to make humans the way he pleased.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoannaB
Then what about women getting raped and people getting killed? Where's their free will? god rather have them get raped and killed than to not get involved? Hmmm...Quote:
I think part of free will for humans requires God to sacrifice direct involvement to a certain extent.
You know as much as I do it would be a huge help. When you're talking about human lives, there's no all or nothing solution: you save as many as you can.Quote:
Also the story of Jesus shows that God revealing himself more to humans is not necessarily the solution to stop people from killing.
Big help, when he doesn't even lets us know whether he exists or not.Quote:
We need to solve our own problems with God's help
There's always an excuse.
Zoth you make me laugh. More proof for Santa than God?! That's the funniest damn thing I've ever heard. And next, you said woman getting raped and children getting murdered. What does them being unable to save themselves have to do with God? God didn't take their free will, some low life asshole did. And there's a clear line showing when the NT starts, written in every Bible. He showed all of humanity it changed when Christ came. Plus, God's not an old man, another common misconception. And don't tell me I've skipped a few pages when you've clearly never opened a Bible, because one, you're atheist, and two you'd know I was right if you'd read a Bible. And Joanna, thank you for pointing these things out too. You can't misunderstand something you've never investigated Zoth. I'm seriously not trying to sound like a douche, but unfortunately its hard to not sound like a jerk when you're writing, so sorry if any of these offends you, but no harm done right? I'm the only one being bashed I think...
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And don't tell me I've skipped a few pages when you've clearly never opened a Bible, because one, you're atheist,
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two you'd know I was right if you'd read a Bible.
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You can't misunderstand something you've never investigated Zoth.
:facepalm:Quote:
God didn't take their free will, some low life asshole did.
God - changed his mind? :eek:
After thousands of years of being all fire and brimstone and eternal punishment (not to mention the millions of years during which he failed to make his presence known at all and let other religions prevail) he suddenly came to his senses and was all like "Hey - maybe I could try this a different way!"???
That sounds kind of like an abusive father saying "It's ok now, I've stopped drinking, and I'll never do those horrible things again."
And who said anything about God forcing us to believe? The question as I recall it was why did he fill the world with evidence contradicting pretty much everything the Bible said, and not one shred of evidence for his own existence, so that when we discovered the scientific method and started studying the world around us we see a world that works perfectly well just on the physical laws that are in place, with no need for a God? It makes no sense that he would give us logic and science and then make them reveal the fallacies he allowed into the Bible, making himself and his Word look completely irrelevant and unreal. Anyone who really looks at the evidence, unless they come from a religious background already and are determined to see God, is utterly unable to see even a slight reason to believe in him. That would indicate a God who's sadistic and playing tricks on us. I can only imagine him grinning maliciously and saying in an aside "Watch this - I'm gonna mess with em some more!
I've said this before and I'll say it again - the more strictly you adhere to the Bible the more insane the whole thing obviously is - but nce you admit that the Bible is flawed and written by humans who have their own issues and twist things around for various reasons, then why would you believe ANY part of the Bible? And the Bible is the only thing people cite for why we should believe in God. Once it's been discredited what's left?
It's clear to me and to all atheists that people choose to believe in religions out of emotional reasons, not logical ones. And the same is clear to every theist as well when they look at other religions, it's only their own religion that gets preferential treatment. I've asked people before why they believe certain parts of the Bible but not others, and how they know which parts to believe - and I've never gotten any kind of answer. It seems to come down to each person believing what they want to believe and discarding everything else.
Well I love being disrespected by atheists, its hilarious. But I think I'm done debating, because you're all people over the Internet I don't know. So have a good day. I shall unsubscribe from the thread.
I think the aquisition of free will came with a price. Would you be willing to give up free will in order to never experience evil again? I wouldn't. Does this make me an evil person that I do not want myself and all humans to be puppets of a loving God with no control of our own?
Hitler was evil, and rape is indeed terrible.
I believe that the level of God's noninvolvement was a human choice though, a choice humans as a race made a long time ago and continue to make today.
That's really not an answer to the question though. Zoth was saying people did terrible things in Hitler's name - so is it only the Nazis who are responsible for their evil deeds, or is Hitler to blame? You seem to say Hitler is responsible, and yet God's hands are clean of the atrocities he commanded and allowed to be perpetrated in his name? Does God not know what people are doing in his name (if so he's not omniscient), or is he unable to stop them (not omnipotent), or does he want them to do these things and lay the blame at his feet (in which case he's evil)?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoannaB
And Ineverwakeup - I didn't see anyone disrespecting you? We're talking about ideas, nobody has said anything about you as far as I can see. I think you're taking it very personally when anyone attacks God or the Bible. If that constitutes a personal attack, then every time you attack our ideas wouldn't that also be a personal attack?
Actually, many ex-Christians are ex-Christians because they read the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by ineverwakeup97
What happened to the OP? Did he abandon his own thread to sit back and watch the hilarity ensue? We've gone completely off track from his original idea. This was supposed to be about Christianity trying to use Quantum Physics as proof while at the same time espousing mystical ideas.
If it meant not allowing the killing of any person in any way that was defined as morally wrong (meaning we could still perform surgery, euthanasia, etc) why not? Do you think there's free will when you kill someone? Where's the free will of the person who was raped or murdered?Quote:
Would you be willing to give up free will in order to never experience evil again?
Darkmatters mentions this in his post.Quote:
Hitler was evil
How so?Quote:
I believe that the level of God's noninvolvement was a human choice though, a choice humans as a race made a long time ago and continue to make today.
We're all going to be reported for massive off-topic :shock:Quote:
This was supposed to be about Christianity trying to use Quantum Physics as proof while at the same time espousing mystical ideas.
I so not believe that God commanded any atrocities to be perpetrated in his name. They were perpetrated in his name because people chose to misrepresent the atrocities they committed as having been commanded by God. That is the difference to Hitler, Hitler actually did give attrocious orders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
The Bible is not the only evidence of God. The world is filled with evidence for God. Spiritual exploration within myself reveals evidence of God. I can see God in the actions of other people. I see God in how wonderful the world is, how much beauty and goodness there is in it. And there are too many good coincidences, or maybe not all of them are coincidences. When you look for good, you find good in the world. When you look for evil, you find evil. Oh, and each one of us has a huge potential to change the world for better or for worse.
ButQuote:
I so not believe that God commanded any atrocities to be perpetrated in his name.
The Bible is not the only evidence of God. (meaning, bible is evidence of god)
this.
I guess now we will see the argument of "not all bible is true" or "those parts are not meant to be interpreted literally" or "god didn't actually commanded that", which will lead us to bible not being the word of god, meaning that any arguments you used from the bible (like the existence of jesus) are not related to god.
I find this evidence for human race, not god.Quote:
Spiritual exploration within myself reveals evidence of God. I can see God in the actions of other people. I see God in how wonderful the world is, how much beauty and goodness there is in it. And there are too many good coincidences, or maybe not all of them are coincidences. When you look for good, you find good in the world. When you look for evil, you find evil. Oh, and each one of us has a huge potential to change the world for better or for worse.
The Old Testament was pretty much a list of atrocities commanded by God - stoning people for working on the Sabbath, invading cities and killing all the men and older women while keeping the young virgins as prizes for the soldiers to rape, destroying a city because he does't like homosexuals etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoannaB
Two problems with this - first, if you can see evidence of good and evil in the world, then why is God only responsible for the good and not the evil?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoannaB
And second - none of what you listed is actually evidence. You're using the term very loosely - those things aren't evidence of a god, they're only good feelings that you choose to attribute to a god. If there was any actual evidence then that fact would be recorded in scientific journals and newspaper headlines would all be using their biggest fonts on that day.
If you disagree then I'd like to see this evidence that God exists, and that he's the same God from the Bible and not another one. If you can produce any then you'll have done more for Christianity than anyone has ever done before.
EDIT**
Lol I'm starting to see a pattern here - people must just think "Hey, I'll start some random thread about Christianity and sit back and watch Darkmatters and JoannaB fight!" :cheeky:
I really don't want to fight with you, but my point is just this - religion is about faith. Belief. I have absolutely no problem with people believing what they want to believe - but when someone says there's actual scientific evidence to support the belief then I want to see that evidence, because inevitably it always boils down to the fact that they don't actually have any objective evidence, only faith and belief and they're trying to make it seem like more than that.
And with that I once again go POOF!! :poof:
If I had any evidence to give you that you would find persuasive I would. But you choose not to believe in God, and therefore no evidence will be persuasive. I should spend the rest of my day on something more productive or more fun than this thread. Going to see if those two boys of mine will spend the entire evening fighting and annoying eachother, and perhaps I can help turn that around into a fun and pleasant family evening.
There is plenty of evidence that would be persuasive. The only way evidence can fail to be persuasive is if it's not actually objective but only subjective, and that comes back to faith and belief as you just said. It looks like we're in agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoannaB