I think its better to say: if its outside of science, its outside of evidence, and thus its probably outside of existence. Or, at least, there's no point in discussing the factual existence of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
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I think its better to say: if its outside of science, its outside of evidence, and thus its probably outside of existence. Or, at least, there's no point in discussing the factual existence of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
who knows? there's much disagreement. I just remember reading about it once. but the bible is definitely not put together in chronological order. google it. even Christian sites will tell you. anyway, if you want proof of the monster nonsense, I gave you the verse. Psalm 89:10. here: Rahab (demon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia seriously, what is all that about? even if it wasn't actually written before or around the time of Genesis, it's still pret_ty weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickrold
I've come to think the Christian God wants most of us to go to hell. why would he make it so extremely difficult? you can't tell me in his omniscience he didn't see that coming.Quote:
2)Among other things, through translations away from the original texts imperfections can be created by humans in the translated text.
btw, ignoring everything else I said?
Does it matter? Isn't the fact that they were in effect at some point just as disturbing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickrold
How does he make it difficult?
As for all of these other points, I will do some research and come back later with an answer; I am still recovering from the narrow-mindedness of YEC and don't have everything sorted out.
I'm sorry- he only makes it difficult for people who use their brains and question things.
I question things. I have numerous times doubted the existence of God and have come to the conclusion that he is real.
You still haven't answered my questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickrold
No one can change anyone's beliefs. Well, not on this forum anyway. Apparently every comeback when a Christian won't deny God's existance has to do with science; It also has to do with how the bible makes no sense. It's all the same. I don't bother trying to change people's beliefs, they won't listen because of all of their questions. Out of all of the people who have died and saw Jesus, how come nobody cares? Were they all lying?
I wonder how many muslims/hindus/buddhists/non-christians have seen Jesus in near-death experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
He judges you before you go to hell, so they would see him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartiate
Edit: Also, why did they see him? What could it possibly be if they were dead, even for that short time and saw him. Just a hallucination, even though they were dead?
Plus, they wouldn't be that religion anymore when they came back, so zero.
I was being sarcastic. I meant to say that I am quite certain that no non-christian sees Jesus in near-death experiences.
I have a question for you, why don't you believe in Vishnu? He is much older than god/Jesus. Over one billion Hindus believe in Vishnu, are they liars?
I don't mind you asking me that, at all. By now, I probably wouldn't be Christian if it hadn't been for a supernatural expierience I had with God. I was raised to be a Christian, all my life. I was saved at nine. I didn't even pray the salvation prayer, I just asked God to come in me because I was scared of demons, I felt their presence. I turned to the side of my bed, and looked at the picture of the cross hanging by the door. I closed my eyes and asked the LORD to come in me. Nothing happened for two minutes. I then turned to where I was facing up. I saw a white thing come down to me and enter me. I shook, and cried and was sorry for my sins. No big deal, correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartiate
At the time I had NO idea what happens when you "pray the salvation prayer" I found out when I was 11 what happened. When this happened to me, I didn't know what was going on, but I felt peace.
I have had many other supernatural expierences with God, too. If I hadn't had these, I probably would not believe in him.
The only reason we want these people to believe in him is not to be right all the time, it's to protect them.
Back to what you are saying. All of the people with these other religons do not have these near-death expierences. There is other proof, too. What about proof that Satan exists? What about the people who have been possesed? Just a hoax? How come the people who have been possessed have been delivered only by Jesus?
I don't believe in any other God, because I now know that he exists, for sure. If you don't believe in Jesus, it's hard to explain WHY. The people like this have never ending questions and won't give him a chance. Nobody wants to say the salvation prayer, and mean it. So how would they know?
Humans are susceptible to delusion and hallucination. How do you know your experience(s) weren't hallucinations?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
First of all I don't trust other people's personal experiences. Did you know that in a survey in the United States, 1 in 4 people were determined to have suffered from some kind of mental disorder in a given 12 month period? It's simply easier for me to believe that you're crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
I was raised catholic, which is the oldest and largest christian denomination. There is no "salvation prayer", you're a christian when you get baptized. All this "being saved" stuff is from evangelist american denominations that were created within the last few hundred years.
I didn't say that people of other religions didn't have near-death experiences (and even if I did my word of mouth would hardly be proof...), I said that I doubt they would see Jesus. What if a bunch of hindus told you they saw Vishnu in near-death experiences, what would you say to that?'
Try going to the hospital and say you need to be exorcised because you're possessed, you'll probably end up in the psych ward...
There are about 2 billion christians in the world. About three quarters (roman catholics and eastern orthodox mostly) don't even see god and jesus the same way you do. So lets say 500 million (generous) that have the same general understanding of god as you do.
There are roughly 7 billion people in the world. That means only 1 in 14 people see god as you do, so are the other 13/14 wrong? Would an infinitely powerful god create a world where only 1 in 14 people believe he exists and everybody else goes to hell?
Because I didn't know you repent for your sins when you are saved. I didn't read the bible at the time, and I didn't know much about God. I also didn't know you shook and cried and everything. Years later, I read of Jesus' salvation and it described the Holy Ghost as the same way as I saw it. I'll say it again, I had no idea what it looked like or what happened when a person is saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUELINE976
I think the Christians should do some reading and then post in forums. if you read books by Dan Barker, Atheist Universe by David Mills, and other such books and you can refute all of their arguments, I might be inclined to listen. but as of now you're arguing from a point of utter ignorance and wasting time. read the current arguments against your beliefs, bring yourself up-to-date, otherwise you will convince -no one-.
and before you say, I've read stacks of Christians books, none of which have any arguments that aren't totally demolished by atheist authors.
More people do not believe in the LORD than the people that do. I never said because they don't see God as I do, they will go to hell. Just, if they don't see the one true God. So, apparently according to you, the people who are possesed are all mentally ill? Mess around with Satanic stuff, and see what happens to you. Also, I agree that when people say "I died and saw God." Doesn't mean it is true. I am talking about the ones who their heart actually stopped beating, and when they came back they said the saw Jesus. The ones with PROOF. May I ask, what about prophets of God? They just randomly tell the future without any help? I suppose your comeback would be something like, "How do you know they aren't from other Gods?" Why would another God give the ability to see the future to someone who believes in Jesus?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartiate
I can also tell you think that the more people that believe in something, that must mean it is true? As I said before, the world is, well, the world. More people will go to Hell than they would Heaven. I don't know who, and I am not referring to the 13/14.
Back to near-death expierences, I may ask, how come people that have really died have switched their religion and believed in Jesus when they rose? What about them? Or are the once skeptics just switching their religion because they died, saw Jesus, and "felt like it?"
This doesn't answer my question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
People who say they were abducted by aliens usually cannot accurately describe the sort of spacecraft they boarded during the abduction. It's usually only after "psychoanalysis" and hypnosis or by hearing other people's stories that they can begin to describe the abduction. But this doesn't mean psychoanalysis, hypnosis, or another person's story are credible. It usually means they're making shit up, or they found descriptions that they found vaguely similar and applied them to their experience. Think of "created memories," where people make stuff up and eventually become convinced that such a situation actually occurred, even though it didn't. I nearly convinced myself as a child that I saw Santa, for example.
It is very likely that your experience was either a hallucination, or merely nothing special which you (if, subconsciously) hyped up. So I'll ask again, how do you know your experiences weren't hallucinations?
What kind of satanic stuff I'll be glad to try it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
What kind of PROOF? What prophets? There has never been a prophet in scientific times that hasn't been proved to be a hoax.
How many people have seen Jesus and changed religions after a near-death experience, do you have a number?
MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION FOLLOWS:
WHY WOULD AN INFINITELY POWERFUL GOD THAT CREATED ALL OF US NOT REVEAL HIMSELF TO THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION AND SEND MOST OF US (HIS CREATIONS) TO HELL???
It's not like somebody who's born in a hindu family has much of a choice on what religion he'll be raised in. From birth this person is taught about hinduism, christian god must be as nonsensical to him as eight legged elephant gods are to you. His religion is also older than yours, and he also spazzed out when he was 9 and saw some hindu miracle thing, why the heck is he wrong?
First off, the satanic stuff I really don't want to tell you because I really don't want you to be possessed. But if you must know, Google it or something and do everything. Worship him and do rituals, see what happens. I really don't want to give this kind of advice to you, but it's the only way to see a supernatural event, considering God must not want to reveal himself to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartiate
Well, according to the prophet thing, I have known one of them and they told me something that would happen. A few years later it did, that's just from my own expiereince, but you can find other people with it, too.
Most Important Question: WHY WOULD AN INFINITELY POWERFUL GOD THAT CREATED ALL OF US NOT REVEAL HIMSELF TO THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION AND SEND MOST OF US (HIS CREATIONS) TO HELL???
I am not God and cannot explain how odd he is. He is so different than us. He does not want us to go to hell, he loves us. He tries to get them to believe, everyone has a chance. It isn't God who is doing this, either. A certian SOMEONE, or something is tricking them with false religions. I don't think that the people with no chance go to hell, at all. I think God blames it on the parents. The parents should know that it's wrong by TESTING the word of what they use. I suppose you'll say the parents were raised that way. They were. But their bible and gods are proven to, "not work" as I'll call it.
"Why don't you test the word of what YOU use? Why don't you test the bible?"
I have, and it works. Yes, I do test it.
Obviously, we aren't getting anywhere with back and fourth arguing on a dream forum. I wasn't trying to make you change your beliefs, I was trying explain to you why I will never change mine.
I don't think you listened. It wasn't what I SAW that made me believe I was saved. I didn't even know what salvation WAS at the time. I knew because of what happened in my mind (I was sorry for my sins) that I was saved. Later, I found out what happened when a person is saved, and I recalled that moment. May I ask, what about two people that see the same thing during salvation?Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUELINE976
Also, if it were a hallucination, I think I'd see the demons before I saw the Holy Ghost. I sat there for an hour thinking there were all around the room. Why not "hallucinate" those?
Look at a map and picture which parts of the world are christian. Most of Europe and its past colonies (Americas, some of Africa, some of Pacific). Most of Asia and northern Africa as well as all the indigenous peoples of the world are not christian. The only christians are caucasians and some blacks in areas that were colonized with Europeans. An infinitely powerful god who loved everyone would no doubt be able to save everyone he loved, but he only saves white people and a few black people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
The obvious solution is that god is racist. He must not love indians and oriental people and natives and arabs etc.
How would you know? Vishnu wouldn't reveal himself to a non-believer... Luckily for you you won't go to Hindu hell for not believing in him (thank Vishnu!).Quote:
They were. But their bible and gods are proven to, "not work" as I'll call it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...g-yourself.gif
yeah I am so done with this thread. I've wasted countless hours trying to argue some sense into christians and it's hopeless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
"Later, I found out what happened when a person is saved, and I recalled that moment."
So you acquired information at a later time, and applied your experience to it. How is this different from what I stated in my alien abduction analogy?
As for two people experiencing the same thing, look up the Betty and Barney Hill abduction. Both say they were abducted by aliens, but after testing, their story was concluded to be a fantasy as well as a psychological aberration.
Having a hallucination does not mean you will experience one thing before another (e.g. demons before holy ghost). Furthermore, there is not necessarily any time limit on hallucinations. You could have hallucinated that you sat there for an hour, when in reality it was a few seconds or minutes.Quote:
Also, if it were a hallucination, I think I'd see the demons before I saw the Holy Ghost. I sat there for an hour thinking there were all around the room. Why not "hallucinate" those?
How is God racist? There are Indians and oriental people and others who love Jesus. I understand where you are coming from, but there is a point in everyone's life where they have a chance to see God. It seems as if you're trying to prove God does not exist, have you ever even tried to prove to yourself that he DOES exist. If you tried, even prayed the salvation prayer, not because to poove it, but really WANT it, then maybe you'll find out something. How is one little prayer in private, that you don't have to mention to ANYONE else going to mess up your life? If you already have done it and are doing something else, I can't say God will be pleased, but you're not going to Hell, because that prayer shows that at least you know in your spirit that God exists. Once you say that prayer, your spirit has Jesus, and that's why no matter what you do after, you can't get him out. I am not suggesting after you do this, go ahead and sin, but I am saying after you do this, you are forvever his. By the way, I would try other religions, but I am afraid. Before I start to study them, or try to study the reasons why God doesn't exist, I get an intense evil feeling I can't explain. It is a feeling I only get when I do this. I am going to sleep, and if you post more and I have not responded, it is not because I have no comeback, it's because I am offline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartiate
Imagine a few hundred years ago, there were millions of people living in the Americas (American Indians, Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, etc.) that had NO CLUE of the existence of god. How could they know? Nobody from Europe ever visited them before. So does that mean that for thousands of years these people have been going to hell to suffer for eternity because they didn't believe in a god they never knew about? MILLIONS OF PEOPLE?? Some god...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
Also I have prayed. I was raised catholic I told you. I had a first communion and everything, memorized prayers in latin, etc.