Arguments?

my 2 cents on them:

I have often wondered why some people seem to get into very heated debates over things. When someone challenges something I believe in, it usually leads to me either changing my beliefs, or having a more solid grasp on what exactly I believe in. I see arguments as opportunities to grow missed. Instead of getting angry at someone for not seeing things how I see them, I instead try to be more clear as to why I see things the way I do by giving different examples, or by rewording my point. The problem however is some people just repeat themselves, making only an effort to disprove the other's view, while making little to no effort towards explaining their position. This never works because both sides already have came to separate conclusions. By attempting to disprove the other's view, you need more than just different interpretations of the data, because in most cases, other ways of seeing things were already considered. It is the explaining of your own point effectively that is most likely to get someone to see the error of their own thinking.

On the vast majority of arguments that seem to happen here, people repeatedly make a pretty much unassailable rational argument and then other people repeatedly deny it without proper explanation and keep their past beliefs...

That's what annoys me most. Personally I have an advantage in not being attached to any kind of faith, which basically means I'm free to believe somebody whenever they make a good point. And it's those kind of people who should be welcome to talk about things. But the people who just come here to ignore everybody... I wonder what the point is personally.

I wonder the same thing. If you're going to argue something, but not be prepared to change your beliefs about what you're arguing about, then there's not really any point in arguing with you. It'd be like arguing with a wall. I think their reason for joining a discussion would be just to try and prove that they are right, and all other views are incorrect.

I usually get pissed when people make really bad logic jumps.

Or disregard actual facts...and logic.

"Never argue with an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

It comes down to the logical person getting angry because the other person is just a troll who doesn't want to debate legitimately, s/he just wants to attack you and back it up with nothing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sandform

I usually get pissed when people make really bad logic jumps.

Or disregard actual facts...and logic.

"Never argue with an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

It comes down to the logical person getting angry because the other person is just a troll who doesn't want to debate legitimately, s/he just wants to attack you and back it up with nothing.

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Just don't let them drag you down to their level. It's when they make you pissed that they win. I just ask myself, "is this random person on the internet important enough to me to get angry over?" And the answer is always no. If they are stubborn and refuse to acknowledge their jumps in logic, or certain facts, it can be frustrating, but the truth is that some people are just misinformed fools.

A sure sign that someone is using poor logic in their argument is their refusal to consider your side of it. That is a case of them blindly following themselves as they have already come to the conclusion that they are infallible.

Sex monkeys?

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Originally Posted by Schmaven

I like to have Sex monkeys

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Me too.

That is what it is like debating with some people lol. Only they don't go through the trouble of editing what I said to make it so I can figure out where their dumb ass logic comes from hehe.

Unfortunately, not everyone thinks at the same level. You see, people come on here with outrageous beliefs- myself included.. some of those people have a closed mind, and refuse to accept anything anyone else says. Those people are...idiots. However, there are people that try to have an open mind, but human nature is to get defensive about something when it is being insulted, and I'd say about 60 percent of the members here are crude, condescending, and snide in every way.

They are incapable of just maing a neutral argument without adding some cutting smartass hostile remark..The way the human ego works, the person being challenged immediately clings on to their belief, surpassing all logic. It's unfortunate really, because that means there are multiple reasons why people don't pay attention.

I really have thin patience for idiots who make no valid argument as well..But they have nothing to do with me. We become frustrated at them, because we want them to understand our point and be logical, yet they are not at that maturity level. When it reaches that point, walk away and let them think they've won.. Knowing that you did. They will be trapped in their ignorance, while you walk away with your maturity, dignity and knowledge... it's their loss and their problem. You should be sorry for them for being so simple ;)

Arguments are bad. We shouldn't say that factually verifiable claims are true or false, as this may offend someone. Everybody is probably right anyway.

What gets to me is the arrogance of people who think the presence of logic in an argument dictates whether or not a person's argument is valid or not, and that it shows their opponent's level of maturity or intellect. I see it constantly on many an internet forum. It's here in this very thread. And the people who argue that logic is truth simply don't see the fallacy in their position, and they are just as guilty of being stubbornly immovable in their position as the person they're arguing against who doesn't rely on logic. Yet i seem to be the only person on the planet who can identify this. People just don't understand that logic and science is not king for everybody. And without that understand and argument is dead before it's begun.

Of course people don't get upset about anything unless it means something to them. So the vast majority of the time people attack others because their intelligence or simply their beliefs are being argued against, and when people reach that emotional state they are unlikely to want to open themselves up to their opposition's points. It's like a like horse with blinkers. Maturity, understanding, and acceptance. These things seem to have no place with any party on the internet.

It's a shame, because there are plenty of people around with imaginative and strong minds. If people would understand each other a little better rather than calling each other idiots our debates might actually achieve something.

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Originally Posted by Ardent Lost

And the people who argue that logic is truth simply don't see the fallacy in their position.

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Emotional or universal truth?

There are universal truths...which can only be found using logic, emotional truths, as in whether or not to forgive someone for something, can be based on logic, or not.

Love means never having to say you're sorry, but only because if you're in love the other person knows you're sorry.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

Emotional or universal truth?

There are universal truths...which can only be found using logic, emotional truths, as in whether or not to forgive someone for something, can be based on logic, or not.

Love means never having to say you're sorry, but only because if you're in love the other person knows you're sorry.

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Universal truths. I agree that the concept of logic should be used to determine universal truths, but i don't think that our current understand of the universe is anywhere near sufficient enough for us to rely on the logic we currently possess for certain truth. And i'm not saying logic has no presence in an argument, just that people should understand that not all of us believe we (the human race) actually have a system of logic that can provide definitive proof of anything.

I should have noted that i'm approaching all this from the point of view of the more controversial/metaphysical ideas raised in debates - consciousness, religion etc.

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Originally Posted by Schmaven

my 2 cents on them:

I have often wondered why some people seem to get into very heated debates over things. When someone challenges something I believe in, it usually leads to me either changing my beliefs, or having a more solid grasp on what exactly I believe in. I see arguments as opportunities to grow missed. Instead of getting angry at someone for not seeing things how I see them, I instead try to be more clear as to why I see things the way I do by giving different examples, or by rewording my point. The problem however is some people just repeat themselves, making only an effort to disprove the other's view, while making little to no effort towards explaining their position. This never works because both sides already have came to separate conclusions. By attempting to disprove the other's view, you need more than just different interpretations of the data, because in most cases, other ways of seeing things were already considered. It is the explaining of your own point effectively that is most likely to get someone to see the error of their own thinking.

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This is called wisdom. Many people do not have this.

"Men and people will fight you down. When you see Jah light. Let me tell you if you're not wrong; Then, why? Everything is all right." Bob Marley