Thread: Philosophy 101

The Philosophy forum is in desperate need of a new thread right now, so I thought I'd try and stir up some debate....

Here are some fairly basic philosophical questions, many of you may have heard them before. However, they are interesting thought experiments regarding the concept of a Supreme Being (aka. God):

1) Can God create a stone too heavy for even God to lift?

2) Can God create an equally powerful being?

3) Does God have the power to commit suicide?

Ive heard that classic "Can god build a cage he cant escape" saying if god is all-powerfull, then he's limited by his own power. But this only works if you have a limited idea about God to begin with. That paradox is only applicable if you consider God to be a limited being in the universe. That's saying that God isnt inside, outside, and within the every cage already. That's saying that God isnt within every particle and thought. God cannot escape himself, just as a rock cannot escape being a rock. That does not limit the idea of God in any way.

To specifically answer your quesitons

1)YOu're assuming God "creates". I think the whole idea of creation apllied to God is ridiculous. The idea of creation seperates God from the universe. To create something implies that he creates something which is not a part of himself.

2)Are you asking if God can create a being sperate form himself? If God created a being that was not a part of himself, then GOd is limited and defies the definition of God, as a limitless being.

3)Suicide is something that animals can do. Suicide is something that has to do with the destruction of an organism. Is God limited like that? SHould not a limitless God encompass living and non-living matter, and all of everything that is?

Is it possible for god to create a burrito so delicious that even he could not fully enjoy it?

I like the third question, that's pretty interesting..

I don't think so, because I don't think he's alive in the sense that we're used to, when it comes to beings on our planet. And I don't think God could fully comprehend the idea of suicide, even though he's seen it done on Earth. I don't think he was ever "born" to begin with. I believe he was always there.. I think that the concept of birth and death only exist on our planet, because everywhere else, time doesn't exist.. Oh I dunno, I'm rambling.

Originally posted by gameover
1)YOu're assuming God \"creates\". I think the whole idea of creation apllied to God is ridiculous. The idea of creation seperates God from the universe. To create something implies that he creates something which is not a part of himself.

One idea that I have seen is not a bad one. In Plato's Timaeus, God does not create the universe, as does the Christian God; He simply finds it one day. It is in a state of total chaos. God sets to work to transform the chaos into order.

It could solve a few questions some people have.

I agree with Scwiggle.

can god create a stone too heavy for him to lift?

Not exactly. If God has a physical body, then maybe he can create a stone too heavy for his "physical" body. But if he really wanted to lift this infinitely massive stone, then he's still got his telepathic powers to lift it with his mind. His mind is undoubtly more powerful than his "physical" body.

Can God create an equally powerful being?
Sort of. I've heard the christian belief that God created humans in the image of him. Well, let's assume that's true. So, let's also assume that Aliens really do exist. So, does that mean that there's another God out there that created these aliens in his image? What if there's a leage of God's and one supreme God created them all.

Can God commit suicide?
No. I also believe that suicide is an idea that only exists in the human world. God cannot die b/c God will always exist. There is no such thing as time in God's world. Time is scientifically proven to not be constant(Gen. Relativity - Time dilation). So, there always was a God and there will always be a God. Our primitive minds cannot imagine eternity.

I believe that God transcends all this. I believe there are two types of 'god' in semitic religions. There is the one that sits in clouds throwing thunderbolts and weighting the good against the bad. I definitely don't believe in this God. Btw, I'm exaggerating, the point is that some believe this God to be whatever their parents or elders taught them.

Then there's the God that's omniscient and transcends all, even transcending our comprehension. This is what I believe. I don't even think you can consider God to be a lifeform that can commit suicide.

I don't know what to think about the question 'can god create an equally powerful being'.

I believe that God transcends all this. I believe there are two types of 'god' in semitic religions. There is the one that sits in clouds throwing thunderbolts and weighting the good against the bad. I definitely don't believe in this God. Btw, I'm exaggerating, the point is that some believe this God to be whatever their parents or elders taught them. *

Then there's the God that's omniscient and transcends all, even transcending our comprehension. This is what I believe. I don't even think you can consider God to be a lifeform that can commit suicide. [/b]

Well put.

I don't know what to think about the question 'can god create an equally powerful being'.[/b]

For god to do this he would have to divide in half making him only half God.

Originally posted by gameover
For god to do this he would have to divide in half making him only half God.

How do you know that? If god is truly powerful as you have said and transcends all, why wouldn't he be able to do that without 'dividing himself'?

Originally posted by gameover

For god to do this he would have to divide in half making him only half God.

It would be impossible for someone that is infinite to "divide in half." Division can only apply to things or beings finite.

True...making it impossible for God to create an equally powerfull being. That was my point exactly.

Ive heard that classic \"Can god build a cage he cant escape\" saying if god is all-powerfull, then he's limited by his own power. But this only works if you have a limited idea about God to begin with. That paradox is only applicable if you consider God to be a limited being in the universe. That's saying that God isnt inside, outside, and within the every cage already. That's saying that God isnt within every particle and thought. God cannot escape himself, just as a rock cannot escape being a rock. That does not limit the idea of God in any way.[/b]

I 'gree

The idea of creation seperates God from the universe. To create something implies that he creates something which is not a part of himself.[/b]

Not necessarily. He can create things and still choose to be "present" or "seperate." It depends on what you mean by present or seperate.

Also.. to answer Q #1 would be to assume that God can be defined in finite human language and understanding. This too is an impossibility (for us anyway).

I think the answer to #3 is NA nonapplicable...

Think about when youre dreaming. You are the universe itself. So in a sense you can create things in this universe but in fact you are not making anything that wasnt there. I think God could create in this way. He is creating within himself. But I dont think he could creates anything outside of himself. Becuase if there is anything outside of himself, then he has limits. And if he has limits then he is not God.

That's still a finite view of God...

I don't believe that the words "within" or "outside of" have any bearing or application to one that is infinite

This is where language breaks down. You have argued my words but missed the point I was trying to make. By my definition of God, everything is "within" God...making the word "within" obsolete. But the same applies to myself. EVerything I experience is within me. I do have a conceot of outside things, but the concept is part of me. All anyone can ever know is thier experience, and experience is within oneself. I dont know if anyone else exists outside of myself. So on my scale, the word within again becomes obsolete, except as an abstract concept, which is what I was trying to convey.

Originally posted by I
I dont think he could creates anything outside of himself. Becuase if there is anything outside of himself, then he has limits. And if he has limits then he is not God.

So what I was saying in essence is that if its God, there is no outside himself, and everyhitng would fall under the category of within.

Using the word "within" seems to imply that there is a "without" or "outside" by default (the concept of being within cannot exist without its opposite). But yes, I do see your point. Talking about God's attributes can be difficult using human language...

But I see what your point is. I still think that God can be "seperate" from something if he so chooses, while still maintaining his omnipresence. There are different meanings to variations of his manifested presence as He reveals himself to mankind. For example I believe he revealed himself in bodily form to mankind through his only begotten son Jesus Christ. One can also say that they know or feel his presence in His earthly creation. The ultimate "distance" or "seperation" from God seems impossible but what this really means to me is the absence of his apparent existence, and thus the absence of his manifested presence and all that is good (hell).

I still think that God can be \"seperate\" from something if he so chooses, while still maintaining his omnipresence.[/b]

That I do not. I dont believe God can be seperate form himself. But its apparent that we have different definitions of God.

For example I believe he revealed himself in bodily form to mankind through his only begotten son Jesus Christ[/b]

I think Jesus's whole message was that we are all sons of God and we all have the ability to be our own jesus christ.

And I think hell and heaven are states of mind and all are part of God..or my definition of God anyways.

"The Son of God" is a title applied only to Christ -except in the context of specific reference to angels or to those who are given the divine nature (as opposed to the sin nature that we all possess from birth) Evident from scripture is the idea anyone who believes in and worships God in truth and in spirit receives the divine nature through faith in Christ's atoning blood. An even more prominent title he is given is the "Son Of Man" which alludes to him being divine even as he condescended to humanity. Jesus also never denied men when they worshiped him which in the Hebrew culture at that time was seen as something due only to God.

John 9:35-39
"...Jesus said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" "Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him." Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he bowed down in worship. Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

I believe that "seperation" from God simply means the taking away of his blessings. In one sense, being in heaven (whether it is a state of mind, or an actual physical place, or some combination of both...) is the same as experiencing the fulness of God's manifested presence and thus his blessings as well. Hell, of course, would be the opposite of this. Just like David wrote, if we went to hell, God would be there - no one can escape his presence - yet the benefits of his glory would not be available to the "tenants" there.

The scriptures also speak of separation from God in a very real, yet non-physical sense:

Isaiah 59
1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.
3 For your hands are stained with blood,
your fingers with guilt.
Your lips have spoken lies,
and your tongue mutters wicked things.
4 No one calls for justice;
no one pleads his case with integrity.
They rely on empty arguments and speak lies;
they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.

Originally posted by gameover
To specifically answer your quesitons

1)YOu're assuming God \"creates\". I think the whole idea of creation apllied to God is ridiculous. The idea of creation seperates God from the universe. To create something implies that he creates something which is not a part of himself.

2)Are you asking if God can create a being sperate form himself? If God created a being that was not a part of himself, then GOd is limited and defies the definition of God, as a limitless being.

3)Suicide is something that animals can do. Suicide is something that has to do with the destruction of an organism. Is God limited like that? SHould not a limitless God encompass living and non-living matter, and all of everything that is?

Bravo! Very well said! I would put my signature under this post any day!

All of those questions are based on a misunderstanding of what God is, if such a being is at all.

I agree with dat.