Thread: can the mind exist independent from the brain?

Without wanting to get off-subject here, there have been no scientifically proven OBE's - at least, not in the dualist form. Recently, scientists have been able to induce OBE's by things such as electrodes, and even simple camera-delay setups. OBE's are frequently known to occur during surgery and times of heavy stress to the brain.

Funny thing is... even if OBEs are proven to be real - it still does not prove the mind can function without the brain, because as far as we know, an OBE is the result of some special brain activity. It would prove the mind can function without the physical body... but I think we already knew that from dreams.

I think the mind can function without the brain - but as far as identity goes, I believe that would be lost.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Could she have seen the instruments before they put her out?

I dont think so, a surgery room is a sterile environment. In an interview the doctors said they didnt take the instruments out of the packaging until the patient was under.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Especially since EEG's only scan the outer cortex of the brain and it is possible that there was still a glimmer of activity deep in the middle of the brain.

Possible, I think the case of Pam Reynolds is very interesting the further you dig into it. But I would feel very uncomfortable calling it proof. The actual NDE storyof Pam may offer a little more evidence. During the end of the surgery she did drift away for a minute. The doctors had to use the defibrillator to bring her back.

At this time pam describes she was standing over her body with her uncle. Her uncle was trying to convince her to just jump it. “Its just like jumping into a swimming pool” he said. She was very hesitate not wanting to jump in. She reports her uncle pushed her and she fell into her body. That is when they doctors brought her back.

At this point I think that this case should inspire further research. Like the new project in the UK being launched by Dr. Sam Parnia. But you make some good skeptical arguments which I respect

Originally Posted by Roller

Recently, scientists have been able to induce OBE's by things such as electrodes, and even simple camera-delay setups.

I have discussed this on another thread. and its not really recent, its been around for a while. A lot of skeptics use the Electrode experiment and REM intrusion as proof NDEs are nothing special. If you compare the cases as many researchers have. You find that there are many differences between normal NDEs and Artificial NDEs. Just a few for example

Artificial
Spontaneously reported viewing only part of body (legs and lower trunk)
Normal
Spontaneous report implied viewing the entire body

Artificial
Reported distortion of body image (legs became shorter; arm shorter)
Normal
No reported distortion of body image


thanks for reading

whatever happened to

I'm trying to see what other people's opinions are instead of bringing up NDEs....

?

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

whatever happened to
?....

Originally Posted by Matt5678

im trying to see what other people's opinions are instead of bringing up NDEs.... :roll

well then this came up

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Then go forth and find me a conscious brain dead person...

how could i not mention NDEs after that question? the conversation just kinda took that turn

I have theorized that most religious people are going to answer yes.

Originally Posted by Matt5678

well then this came up



how could i not mention NDEs after that question? the conversation just kinda took that turn

The problem with your example is that she did not show consciousness while brain dead. She was conscious before and after and was able to describe what she percieved to happen while she was out but the woman we are talking about in terms of that which is represented by her physical manifestastion was not conscious while brain dead.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

The problem with your example is that she did not show consciousness while brain dead. She was conscious before and after and was able to describe what she percieved to happen while she was out but the woman we are talking about in terms of that which is represented by her physical manifestastion was not conscious while brain dead.

You appear to be talking very literally as if your sure it happened before or after the brain stopped. You can’t prove that just as I cant prove anything either. I think that there is some evidence to suggest that it happened during the operation.

But this is beside the point. I didn’t bring up NDEs to PROVE to that person that the mind can exist independent from the body. I brought it up to give insight to what might be good evidence. Veridical Perception can get even more interesting when it happens miles away. And Veridical Perception gets still even more interesting when it happens to Blind Patients.

Are you sure this surgery ever took place? And is your source trustworthy? It sounds very doubtful, and if this actually happened, I'd go as far as saying, that the woman is lying, and the doctor is helping her in this act, in order to get attention. Not that the surgery didn't take place, but that all these things happened.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Are you sure this surgery ever took place? And is your source trustworthy? It sounds very doubtful, and if this actually happened, I'd go as far as saying, that the woman is lying, and the doctor is helping her in this act, in order to get attention. Not that the surgery didn't take place, but that all these things happened.

well, i dont hear this skeptical argument much. first of all these are respectable researchers. Dr sabom is a cardiologist he didn’t specialize in the brain but he has over twenty years of research in the field of NDEs. i really hope your not trying to say these researchers are not conducting a real scientific study, just because you disagree with the direction some of the evidence is pointing

is the women is lying? well, pam Reynolds now travels around (a devoted Christian) giving presentations at churches and hospitals and sells a book about her experience. but i dont think she really rakes in too much money. so i dont believe she is lying because of the veridical perception she described that was very accurate down to small details. a skeptic holds the position that it veridical perception might have happened either before or after she went into standstill. so either way she did experience something and believes it to be true.

and i really dont think the doctors who performed the operation are just going along with the story to get a reputation. do you really think that several surgeons would all form some conspiracy with a religious nutcase to make $10,000 in book sales?

in a survey by Dr. Bruce Greyson around 90% said they were now certain in life after death. There are thousands of stories of drug addicts turned teachers, Atheists becoming priests and mean and unpleasant people becoming the most friendly person on the block. Its very easy to see the huge psychological impact an NDE has on a person that lasts for the rest of their lives. it really is quite beautiful

Oops voted yes, i ment maybe because i don't know.

Originally Posted by Matt5678

that is a very rational and plausible theory. but i think there are two big things wrong with it.

one problem....... three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function. But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests and she still had an NDE with a clear lucid thought process. so i think if it was a hallucination brought on by anoxia it would have shown up on the EEG and the doctors would have immediately identified it.

second problem is how she identified what was going on around her accurately during her time in stand still. during this surgery the front her head was concealed. so i think its impossible that she somehow drifted in for a split second and saw what was going on. she could describe what doctor was standing where, which instrument was being used and the exact words the doctors were exchanging. this was later verified. by definition, since it really happened, it cant be a hallucination

there are other parts to Pam’s NDE than just the OBE. She described the usual but beautiful stories of most NDE’ers. seeing people made out of light. Seeing dead loved ones and having a close conversation religious figures. But the scientists who study them focus most on the OBE because that is where is can be verified or debunked.

Thanks for reading

I read on this site somewhere there is a 2nd side to that story, the skeptics saying the machines were not working properly, if that's true then this story has no credibility IMO. As hard as it probably is i hope someone can make it passed the time and prove to everyone it's real, unless of course it's impossible because the body will be dead forever, then this will never end because it's an impossible task.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Are you sure this surgery ever took place?

Nothings certain, it's online stuff you cannot prove watching unless you do some research, you just gotta believe.

And is your source trustworthy?

Well trustworthy in a "i believe it, but you wont" kind of way because the whole believer/skeptic thing or one that puts facts on? several MD's get their stories posted at that website

http://www.near-death.com/

Take it for what it's worth

It sounds very doubtful, and if this actually happened, I'd go as far as saying, that the woman is lying, and the doctor is helping her in this act, in order to get attention. Not that the surgery didn't take place, but that all these things happened.

So will anything if it sounds too good to be true, but doesn't mean it's not true. You can tell me a true story that sounds too good to be true and i can doubt it all i want, doesn't mean it's not true.

i just disagree with one thing you said

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Nothings certain, it's online stuff you cannot prove watching unless you do some research, you just gotta believe.

i dont think you "just have to believe" the sugery took place. it took place. doctors were interviewed, hospitals were visited, medical logs were filled out and checked....it happened. out of all factors of NDEs people could argue im very surprised someone has argued the surgery never took place.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I read on this site somewhere there is a 2nd side to that story, the skeptics saying the machines were not working properly, if that's true then this story has no credibility IMO. As hard as it probably is i hope someone can make it passed the time and prove to everyone it's real, unless of course it's impossible because the body will be dead forever, then this will never end because it's an impossible task.

yes there is a second side to every story. but people just seem to focus on the machines. Veridical perception keeps bouncing back. pam needed to be "dead" for the operation to succeed. and she described what the doctors were saying while she was supposed to be dead. im not a doctor i cant say anything about whether or not the machines were working correctly. but i know that it seems very strange that she could know all she knew at that time. its not proof

I stand by what i said, you cannot prove it happened just by watching it, you can prove it from research and finding out if it was real.

Your question is questionably phrased.

CAN the mind exist outside the brain? Sure, anything is possible, as far as we know. Is there reasonable evidence to believe that it does? Absolutely not. Occam's razor takes care of that.

I've read about some experiments that Stephen Thaler did on neural networks. He was able to create 'sensations' in the brain by killing 'neurons' in a neural network(which had no activity), which had clear association to data that had been fed into it beforehand. Perception, even in 'death'.

Does it assume too much when we determine a brain is "dead"? Lack of brain-wave activity, sure, but we don't know how the brain works yet. Some functions may not be attributed to waves of neurons firing, and instead would take place in the 'random' chatter of neurons. There is a distinct possibility that, while clinically dead, the brain possesses some of its powers of perception. Since the auditory nerves are still connected to it, there is a possibility that the signals are still interpreted by the brain on some level.

The simplest explanation may be that brain death is more difficult to determine than we think.

Originally Posted by R.D.735

The simplest explanation may be that brain death is more difficult to determine than we think.

very interesting indeed. i guess we will just have to wait.

i just have to say that just because a "feeling" is experienced by stimulating part of the brain that doesn’t necessarily mean that all feelings are caused by the brain. parts of your brain are being stimulated right now as you read this. it doesn’t mean that these words are a hallucination produced by that part of the brain. it goes back to the television metaphor.

But I always thought NDEs were different from that explanation. In some cases of NDEs extra senses have been given to the patient that they didn’t have before. Some NDE patients who are deaf are able to Hear in and NDE and patients Blind from Birth are able to See during an NDE.

PS: i hate the simplest explanation thing, takes all the fun out of thinking what could be. i dont think DNA and Black holes were simple explanations. but of course this is only my personal opinion

Originally Posted by Matt5678

i just have to say that just because a "feeling" is experienced by stimulating part of the brain that doesn’t necessarily mean that all feelings are caused by the brain. parts of your brain are being stimulated right now as you read this. it doesn’t mean that these words are a hallucination produced by that part of the brain. it goes back to the television metaphor.

Sure, but just because I haven't seen a flying unicorn doesn't mean that they don't exist. Just because when I turn the wheel of my car right the car goes right doesn't mean that there isn't some giant child with a remote control actually making my car turn and I just happen to be turning the wheel at the same time.

Occam's razor. It is indeed possible that not all emotions and thoughts originate in the brain, but to say that this is a likely scenario is completely unfounded. You people are grasping at straws to explain your invisible non-physical things which somehow interface with our physical bodies without breaking the laws of physics in a non-deterministic fashion. Yeah.

Originally Posted by Matt5678

But I always thought NDEs were different from that explanation. In some cases of NDEs extra senses have been given to the patient that they didn’t have before. Some NDE patients who are deaf are able to Hear in and NDE and patients Blind from Birth are able to See during an NDE.

Bullshit, there's no way of knowing what they really experienced. Perhaps they merely thought that they saw, but they really experienced something completely different. If they've been blind from birth, they can't know what it's like to see, and any reports of them seeing which are not confirmed by a third party are extremely questionable. Same for deaf people.

I haven't seen a flying unicorn

Well, that's good to know.

Ill try to respond

Originally Posted by thegnome54

Occam's razor. It is indeed possible that not all emotions and thoughts originate in the brain, but to say that this is a likely scenario is completely unfounded.

I dont believe I ever said it was a likely scenario, if I did say that it was a mistake on my part

Originally Posted by thegnome54

You people are grasping at straws to explain your invisible non-physical things which somehow interface with our physical bodies without breaking the laws of physics in a non-deterministic fashion. Yeah.

you people huh? ok, im unclear on exactly what group your categorizing me in. i would say its christian, so please since your uncomfortable with assumptions dont assume that im a Christian trying to find anything to rationalize my beliefs. Truth is I have just always found NDEs to be a fascinating topic. And admire the research done on the topic by the doctors who study them.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

Bullshit, there's no way of knowing what they really experienced. Perhaps they merely thought that they saw, but they really experienced something completely different. If they've been blind from birth, they can't know what it's like to see, and any reports of them seeing which are not confirmed by a third party are extremely questionable. Same for deaf people.

uuhh, i dont like when people start off with a curse word. just makes me a little tense........anyways. I agree with you. There is no way in really knowing what they saw. That is why I try never to call it proof. The case of Viki Noratuk was interesting because she described which doctor were in the room. There are many variables that could come into play. But there is no doubt in her mind that this wasn’t real. Of course that doesn’t do anything for the researchers. I guess we will find out more when Dr Greysons Results from his new study are released. And when the new study in the UK by Dr. Parnia is completed.

Originally Posted by Matt5678

I dont believe I ever said it was a likely scenario, if I did say that it was a mistake on my part

My point is, anything is possible. Plausible? Not so much.

Originally Posted by Matt5678

you people huh? ok, im unclear on exactly what group your categorizing me in. i would say its christian, so please since your uncomfortable with assumptions dont assume that im a Christian trying to find anything to rationalize my beliefs. Truth is I have just always found NDEs to be a fascinating topic. And admire the research done on the topic by the doctors who study them.

By 'you people', I am referring to anyone who believes that there is a non-physical component to human beings. Religion has nothing to do with it. My analogy with the car turning in response to the steering wheel expresses my frustration quite well. This conjecture is simply grasping at straws.

Originally Posted by Matt5678

uuhh, i dont like when people start off with a curse word. just makes me a little tense........anyways.

Sometimes a curse word is the only one which really expresses your argument. I don't mean to offend, it's just a word. I'll call you a poopy-headed liar if you'd prefer

Originally Posted by Matt5678

I agree with you. There is no way in really knowing what they saw. That is why I try never to call it proof. The case of Viki Noratuk was interesting because she described which doctor were in the room. There are many variables that could come into play. But there is no doubt in her mind that this wasn’t real. Of course that doesn’t do anything for the researchers. I guess we will find out more when Dr Greysons Results from his new study are released. And when the new study in the UK by Dr. Parnia is completed.

I, too, am fascinated by NDEs. However, I'm fairly sure that they're just vivid hallucinations caused by a brain in trauma. I could be wrong, of course, but I see no reason to assume otherwise unless something makes non-physical entities a more plausible explanation.

Can someone kill me? i wanna have an NDE, i have never expierienced any of this stuff except sleep parylisis(sp?) once, and lately some crazy real like dreams.

NDE
OBE
STD
LD
WILD
etc
etc
etc

I'm boring.

Well what about

LSD
PCP
DMT?

These acronyms can make you feel like you are experiencing those other acronyms.