Thread: Indoctrination

Originally Posted by Hard

You are NOT an individual!!! Just because you like different music than other people or you like different foods doesnt make you an individual. You are simply a product of what you have learned over the years. Society tells you rape and murder are wrong, so you will probably think the same. You are just a highly conditioned animal with emotions. That is just some food for thought. Needless to say, i dont believe homosexuals are born that way (unless there is an ubundance of the wrong horomones)

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That is why we are supplied with brains. As kids we can hardly tell difference between "right" and "wrong" things because we are inmatured to make clear distinction between reality and illusion. In fact some people remain inmatured till the end of their life.
I am an individualist and never follow the herd. I have no problems with it. No TV bullshit - publicity or whatever -, no religions, no believes of others have any influence on my way of life.
To battle against headwind is not easy - if you're not strong enough to be a worrior, then what remains? A scared sheep?

Yes indoctrination is a bitch. Especially religious indoctrination can really create blinded induviduals. It is extremely hard to convince someone that has been told all his life to accept something to let it go. Indoctrinated people need no proof of any sort.

Nationalism often also is the result of indoctrination. Like in extreme measures in hilter germany, the people were systematically lied to and overwhelmed with propaganda -aka indoctrination- to follow the nazi's without asking question.

In my oppinion america also has a problem with indoctrination. Both religious indoctrination and nationalistic indoctrination. Singing the national anthem every day at school, and seeing american flags everywhere you go, mixed with 'god bless america' really created some patriotistic idiots that are willing to die for their country. That is what you need for a war however: Eighter a nationalistic or religious (or ideologic, such as communist) -indoctrinated blind mass of people that doesn't ask question and doesn't question the people in command.

So if the only reason why we are not simply an individual is because soceity has programmed us, then what do you call people who go against society? Rape and Murder are wrong but it happens right? What are these people called that shows no regards to any particular law that weights so heavy over every single individual in this country? I'm sorry but I must dissagree I think everyone is thier own individual.

I do agree that indoctrination can create some rather "insane" masses, the zealots of religion, people that honestly believe that the world is flat, etc. The one trully powerful trait that I believe DOES make one an individual though, is the ability to question your own beliefs, and the beliefs of others. The latter is easily done by the indoctrinated, but would you have seen a Christian crusader take a step back and question why he believed in what he did? Chances are, there were the few that did, the few that saw the horror of their own violence and took it for what it was. For the others, their beliefs were enough to compel them to do anything.

Philosophy in and of itself is this ability to question, to make the attemp at discovering the the 'how' and the 'why', the way life should be lived, etc. Undoubted you will find many of the indoctrinated that are influenced by the ideas of philosophy, and that only brings them one step closer to mental freedom.

I suppose in the long run we should ask ourselves, is there any one of us who remain completely free of mind? My guess would be no, that there are only certain levels of freedom, but I can never be certain. Just another thing for us to think about.


And of course, I have one last thing to say. I must disagree with the statement that "none of us are individual", made by Hard as Nails. I see everyday how people interact, how some repel and some attract. The ones that believe in whatever they are told, and the ever skeptic. I can go on, but you understand.

even athiests are indoctrinated (ITS A JOKE [though its probably true])

but I disagree with us not being indiviguals. EVERYONE I have ever met thinks I'm unique. I act and react differently then other people, and no-one on earth has quite figured out how I work yet. Not even me.

So, If I AM a product of indoctrination, then by Chaos, they broke the mold!

Originally Posted by Keeper

even athiests are indoctrinated (ITS A JOKE [though its probably true])
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How many parents tell their children: "There is no god and That is the way it is without question."
How many parents tell their children: "There is a god and That is the way it is without question."

but I disagree with us not being indiviguals. EVERYONE I have ever met thinks I'm unique. I act and react differently then other people, and no-one on earth has quite figured out how I work yet. Not even me.

So, If I AM a product of indoctrination, then by Chaos, they broke the mold!
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Everyone is unique, yet your christian ideas are far from it. Your blind belief in god is quite common amoung alot of people, especially those that grew up in christian families.

[quote]
How many parents tell their children: "There is no god and That is the way it is without question."
How many parents tell their children: "There is a god and That is the way it is without question."[/qote]

you would be amazed, especially because that is what is taught at schools now-days

Everyone is unique, yet your christian ideas are far from it. Your blind belief in god is quite common amoung alot of people, especially those that grew up in christian families.

as are yours

Actually genes play a big part in how fat you are. And believe it or not there are "fat" genes. Actually I probably shouldn't say fat, as a lot of people who are overweight are like that because of poor eating habits. There are however genes that can make you small or tall or skinny or yes, even larger than normal. There are even genes that make so your more likely to put on weight as well.

I am not saying your wrong though. A large part of it is learned, for SOME people. This is why the subject is always so hard though. If being fat was always a learn trait, then it would be easy, you could prove it. Or if it was always genes you could prove that. But its really a mix, part genes and part learned.

Its also funny that you brought up Santa Claus. Yes lots of kids believe it without a second thought, atleast for a while. Tons of kids start to question it as they get older however. Why is that? If they were indoctrinated fully, they would never question it, yet they do.

Same goes for religion. People grow up hearing about it all the time but I bet nearly everyone who believes in a religion has at some time questioned their religion. Yea, theres probably a few people who just goes through the motions and don't think but anyone who really believes in a religion has as some point questioned it.

The way I see it, everything you are is a mix of everything you have done. Part of it is preset by your genes, part of it is how you grew up, who was in your family, who you had as friends, even random events that occured in your life, and if you believe in it, even your soul. Its all a mix to make you a unique individual, and that why no two people are the same.

you would be amazed, especially because that is what is taught at schools now-days.[/b]

If you would teach that the earth revolved around the sun in 1500, that would be the same thing as teaching evolution now. Teaching evolution has nothing to do with bashing on religion, it has to do with logic science.

as are yours[/b]

In a way perhaps. But my parents never told anything about god. They didn't teach me he existed, they didn't teach me he didn't exist. I did went to church on Christmas. It was my own choice not to believe in god, even to this day there are few things about sprituality that I have been teached, I made up my own mind. In my eyes, teaching evolution and other science has nothing to do with belief in a god or not.

That is what I dislike in Christians, none of them made op their own mind. Drop a few children in the jungle without any knowledge of god (yet knowledge of language, or the test could take many centuries), and the people would probably 'invent' their own reasons for why it is raining, like tree-gods or something.

If you would destroy every trace of Christianity, every bible, every church and you would erase everything people know about it, then no one would re-invent some dude called jesus that is the son of god. Atheist will always be re-invented in the same way, if you would erase all of science and atheism.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Everyone is unique, yet your christian ideas are far from it. Your blind belief in god is quite common amoung alot of people, especially those that grew up in christian families.
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I'm just curious as to how you came to the conclusion that his beliefs were Christian. Did you know this before hand or was it an assumption? And, how do you know his belief in God is blind?

The questions aren't meant to agitate you, I'm honestly curious. I, for example, have a reasonable argument for the existence of God (or a creator, to put it simply), so I would find it much to my dismay that one might assume I believed blindly.

Originally Posted by invader_tech

I'm just curious as to how you came to the conclusion that his beliefs were Christian. Did you know this before hand or was it an assumption? And, how do you know his belief in God is blind?

The questions aren't meant to agitate you, I'm honestly curious. I, for example, have a reasonable argument for the existence of God (or a creator, to put it simply), so I would find it much to my dismay that one might assume I believed blindly.
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thank you. I also find it curias that they think that faith in God is blind, yet they trust a flawed theory more then solid proof.

Neruo, first off, God doesn't want blind faith. He actualy says test the scriptures. And second, no, Christianity wouldn't die out if every person who believed died out, as you will see through history.

I find it sick that perents choose not to guide thier children theas days, Neruo. If you love them, you giude them. You dont come along and say "find your own path". They are sapposed to do that AFFTERWORDS.

Not guiding ... that shows a lack of love for them.

Originally Posted by invader_tech

I'm just curious as to how you came to the conclusion that his beliefs were Christian. Did you know this before hand or was it an assumption? And, how do you know his belief in God is blind?

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Becouse he is jamming on about the bible. And he allso defends it. And he also seems to have taken Alot of ideas from it. And he is blind becouse he denies just about everything, from fossil records to the existance of killer-wasps before mankind existed.

Also, I never heard him talking about how he saw god. I can understand that some delusional people think they see god and get all religious, but most Christians follow the bible with any other (fake) proof of god's existance. In my eyes someone who follows a constantly re-written text of 1935 years old with clear inconsistancies and cruelties, and has that as only proof for his faith, for so it seems, such a person is blind in my eyes.

The questions aren't meant to agitate you, I'm honestly curious. I, for example, have a reasonable argument for the existence of God (or a creator, to put it simply), so I would find it much to my dismay that one might assume I believed blindly.[/b]

What is your 'reasonable arguement'?

Indoctrination can't be so bad for the people .. it's a good thing.
No matter what you tell people, they are too dumb/lazy/primitive to question it - to ask for deeper senses. Then it doesn't even matter what you tell them, as long as peoples imagination about the object fits the acutal life of the object, everything is alright. Since we are able to even live without having a reality-fitting view, indoctrination is acutally the cause of all the crap in the world - it told people there is no necessity to ask for more reasons than the one you are given ... and if you do exactly that, you will have a pretty cool life .. because you just know what you see.

indoctrination seems to be no different fundamentally than "culture" or "socialization"...

it seems one must realize that much of indoctrination is actually extremely helpful, and educational. few of us would say we brush our teeth or wear clothes in frigid conditions or use language because we are mindlessly indoctrinated. we would say we have been taught useful things which enrich our lives.

when indoctrination tries to teach us harmful ideas, it is the mark of relative autonomy (individuality) to be able to reject such ideas on the basis of logic and reason.

the word "doctrine" is a derivative of the latin "doctrina", which could simply mean "instruction(s)".

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seems to me the difference between being "indoctrinated" or "educated" in the modern sense, is whether or not one accepts all instructions (which are really just suggestions) without critical thought, or with a healthy dose of skepticism.